Bluemour Discussion Thread XVI - Facts Not Welcome

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HARKER

Hall of Famer
Oct 15, 2008
49,941
66,555
Melbourne
AFL Club
Carlton
That’s not actually true - we missed Shiel because he chose *. We were ready to deal with GWS if it all fell through
Why did Shiel wait so long to 'choose' Essendon? Why was it such a difficult decision?
I won't state as fact that his manager felt that a deal would have been difficult with us, but it sure seemed that way to me.

There's little point sometimes nominating a club if one feels that a deal may not be able to be achieved.
Essendon promised Shiel they'd get him over the line and they did........albeit at a much higher cost than they expected to pay. No problem.
 

Hands On

Team Captain
Oct 26, 2016
508
1,229
AFL Club
Carlton
Its amazing the amount of SOS discussion going on when every so called expert rate our list highly. All x coaches in the media, when asked who would they coach Norf, Blues etc. they all instantly reply Carlton. List wasn't put together by a ghost. What we all forget We were in the deepest Sh#t hole imaginable, there is only so many players you can recruit for the Draft. The rest he.
1. Manufacture additional draft picks
2, was faced with the fact that no established super star would want to come to a club so far away form the ultimate goal. we are like a dark cave, enter at own risk, you may find an angry bear or a treasure chest.

As it is not all high draft picks make it become a success, so he hit the draft hard and took a small risk for the greater potential gain, particularly if some of the Injured GWS guys made it.

We should all rate SOS in 2 years time when the bulk of this list is at its prime. It may have well been Bolts, Game plan, assistant coaches, age and body shape of recruits etc. If we string a few stirring victories till the end of the year, where will we rate hi, then?

Just like our Boards from the past we supporters are also to quick to judge. Was he wrong in recruiting to many young undeveloped kids perhaps eh was. But if these kids stick fat and develop and grow together me may be changeling for a longer and more sustained period.
 

teagueyubeauty

Premiership Player
Oct 5, 2004
3,251
6,199
Somewhere there
AFL Club
Carlton
Other Teams
Liverpool, Yankees
IMO, the next 4 years of trading and drafts is probably more important than the last 4 years.

We ****** it up royally first time in these same 4 years, draft pick after draft pick being duds or just good players. If we had have continued to build depth and talent with wise drafting we wouldn’t have got to where we were at end of 2015.

I’d personally like some stability and have SOS finish the job. If he does it as well as he’s done the first 4 years then we’ll be setup for sustainable success.
 

Pafloyul

Premiership Player
Oct 6, 2004
3,318
2,071
Somewhere else
AFL Club
Carlton
Other Teams
Carlton
Better to have him on a rookie list than the main list.
In theory, but placing him directly on the list means we can take a kid higher in the rookie draft and the higher you take them, the better chance we have of getting a good one.
 

BigFrizz36

Club Legend
Mar 20, 2017
1,499
3,803
AFL Club
Carlton
Interesting no other media has mentioned anything about SOS leaving. It would be big news and why would the Age and the Herald Sun let Foxfooty get all the clicks and attention?
Tom morris is a genuine smarmy flog . Wouldn't elaborate the other night and genuinely looked as though he was having a guess based on the the silvagni/lyon meeting.
I've watched him a bit and he has a disdain for Carlton which seems to be based on "they're an easy target so i'll lay the boots in".
Another of the media who makes my skin crawl.
 

KnobHead

Club Legend
Jul 5, 2011
1,212
2,063
Ayahuasca Island
AFL Club
Carlton
That’s not actually true - we missed Shiel because he chose *. We were ready to deal with GWS if it all fell through
Harks is on the money.

At one point earlier in the trade period we were very close to getting Shiel but couldn’t close the deal with GWS, as initially they wanted our 2018 draft pick (Sam Walsh) but we weren’t prepared to give that.

Then after that is how you’ve described in your post. But we were only ready to deal with GWS with our 2019 first round draft pick, not pick 1 from 2018. Essendon finally blinked with two firsts.


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Doro

Club Legend
Sep 22, 2011
2,817
3,828
62 West Wallaby St.
AFL Club
Carlton
Other Teams
Wensleydale Wanderers
IMO, the next 4 years of trading and drafts is probably more important than the last 4 years.

We ****** it up royally first time in these same 4 years, draft pick after draft pick being duds or just good players. If we had have continued to build depth and talent with wise drafting we wouldn’t have got to where we were at end of 2015.

I’d personally like some stability and have SOS finish the job. If he does it as well as he’s done the first 4 years then we’ll be setup for sustainable success.
Not sure I agree it's more important, given the crux of the side will be formed by our top 12 picks from those 4 drafts. The difference between contender and also ran might be decided by how smart we are though, agreed.
 

Bluey24

Club Legend
Oct 17, 2014
1,268
3,013
Melbourne
AFL Club
Carlton
How is a jury still out on a bust?
If you read my previous post, you'll see I wrote "it's increasingly looking like Willo will be a bust" ... And I'm not giving 'big wraps' to SOS until he isn't

What I mean by bust: Injuries, form, age - whatever the reason - it's elite sport. If a player does not contribute something meaningful to the success of his/her Club, then, regardless of the reason, their top flight career has been a bust ...
 

PrinceCharles

Club Legend
Suspended
Oct 18, 2016
2,814
6,579
AFL Club
Carlton
If you read my previous post, you'll see I wrote "it's increasingly looking like Willo will be a bust" ... And I'm not giving 'big wraps' to SOS until he isn't

What I mean by bust: Injuries, form, age - whatever the reason - it's elite sport. If a player does not contribute something meaningful to the success of his/her Club, then, regardless of the reason, their top flight career has been a bust ...
Then I can only assume you've never seen him play. Or are you saying he will never recover from his injuries? In that case, as I asked previously, what do you know that we don't?
 

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Manhattanite

Senior List
Sep 2, 2017
191
475
AFL Club
Carlton
This insinuation that SOS should leave is just madness. We nailed 1 draft pick from 2009 to 2014. SOS has nailed at least 50% and he created a lot of opportunities by trading out players so we could trade up. End of story, he should stay as far as I am concerned
And what a draft pick that was. Rogers et al were very openly saying Cripps will be an absolute gun and most other clubs didn’t agree at the time. They kept publicly saying it. Completely on the money. And yet they failed at almost every other pick they made like ever.


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Bamboo Harvester

Club Legend
Sep 19, 2018
1,449
5,227
Shark Bay
AFL Club
Carlton
Its amazing the amount of SOS discussion going on when every so called expert rate our list highly. All x coaches in the media, when asked who would they coach Norf, Blues etc. they all instantly reply Carlton. List wasn't put together by a ghost. What we all forget We were in the deepest Sh#t hole imaginable, there is only so many players you can recruit for the Draft. The rest he.
1. Manufacture additional draft picks
2, was faced with the fact that no established super star would want to come to a club so far away form the ultimate goal. we are like a dark cave, enter at own risk, you may find an angry bear or a treasure chest.

As it is not all high draft picks make it become a success, so he hit the draft hard and took a small risk for the greater potential gain, particularly if some of the Injured GWS guys made it.

We should all rate SOS in 2 years time when the bulk of this list is at its prime. It may have well been Bolts, Game plan, assistant coaches, age and body shape of recruits etc. If we string a few stirring victories till the end of the year, where will we rate hi, then?

Just like our Boards from the past we supporters are also to quick to judge. Was he wrong in recruiting to many young undeveloped kids perhaps eh was. But if these kids stick fat and develop and grow together me may be changeling for a longer and more sustained period.
We only have to go back as far as last year.

SOS was able to trade in Gov, Setters, Newman, and Fas (via FA) without having to trade a player, and still retaining our 1st round pick....which we picked up Walshy.

He then trades in another first round pick during the National Draft for Stocker, when our next pick was somewhere in the 60's or 70's, and still managed to maintain a first round pick for the 2019 draft...which now gives us currency to trade in a quality player....or still give us a first round pick in the ND. And, if we happened to bring in say Jack Martin or Jack Billings for that trade, all of a sudden it looks pretty ****in' good.

I know a lot of people argue that we may have paid overs for Gov, but we only gave the Cows back what they gave us for Gibbs, with some interest. Whom, as some posters suggest, may be coming back to us anyway...a hell of a lot cheaper than what we got for him. They may get their third rounder back that they traded to us.

And then brings in a guy named Michael Gibbons, who hasn't missed a game, and looking better and better every week.

For mine, I was pretty rapt with what SOS did during the trade/draft period last year...maybe with the exception of our lower draft picks.
 

Zuribagger

Senior List
May 6, 2017
272
507
AFL Club
Carlton
I’m with you Bamboo:
Ignoring his later draft picks, it looks like (time will tell of course) SOS had a ripping 2018 trade period despite overs for Gov.
 

dangerousdane

Premiership Player
Aug 16, 2015
4,863
5,201
AFL Club
Carlton
Other Teams
Arsenal
We only have to go back as far as last year.

SOS was able to trade in Gov, Setters, Newman, and Fas (via FA) without having to trade a player, and still retaining our 1st round pick....which we picked up Walshy.

He then trades in another first round pick during the National Draft for Stocker, when our next pick was somewhere in the 60's or 70's, and still managed to maintain a first round pick for the 2019 draft...which now gives us currency to trade in a quality player....or still give us a first round pick in the ND. And, if we happened to bring in say Jack Martin or Jack Billings for that trade, all of a sudden it looks pretty ****in' good.

I know a lot of people argue that we may have paid overs for Gov, but we only gave the Cows back what they gave us for Gibbs, with some interest. Whom, as some posters suggest, may be coming back to us anyway...a hell of a lot cheaper than what we got for him. They may get their third rounder back that they traded to us.

And then brings in a guy named Michael Gibbons, who hasn't missed a game, and looking better and better every week.

For mine, I was pretty rapt with what SOS did during the trade/draft period last year...maybe with the exception of our lower draft picks.
Other than slightly paying overs for Gov, i was really happy with the trade period, mostly i have been happy with his drafting but there has been some really strange selections and our list is still really unbalanced.

Hopefully it all comes together in time but in hindsight im not sure why we recruited Mcgovern considering we only recruited TDK a year earlier. How will TDK fit with Charlie, Gov, Harry and a ruck. It seems very unlikely. I don't see where Finbar its either and why we didn't target a small forward or a mid.

Then there is delisting Kerridge and Lamb when we are supposedly crying out for senior bodies to take some slack and go out and recruit Fas.
 

Blues90

Club Legend
Oct 24, 2015
1,190
1,482
AFL Club
Carlton
As if moving Bolton along part way through wasn't always the plan? I thought it would have been I feel he gave them everything he could and now we need someone else to take them further...
 
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