Injury Brad Crouch out for the year? #@%!

[John Who]

Except you’d ask your parents because you are in a trusted relationship

Ergo, player would ask the club

Ergo, club would advise/recommend/give the benefit of wisdom and experience to aid decision making

If Crouch and the surgeon did this without any input from the club at all, that is concerning

The club can go either of 2 ways:
1. Agree/accept the decisions made by the specialists/surgeons
2. Talk Brad against medical advice - one could argue that this could be a negligent act, if this was the case.

 

[El Doederino]

The club can go either of 2 ways:
1. Agree/accept the decisions made by the specialists/surgeons
2. Talk Brad against medical advice - one could argue that this could be a negligent act, if this was the case.

Well they can’t do 2

But you’re also forgetting the role of the club doctor in all of this

The doctor is the one that refers to the specialist/surgeon, as it does in the normal doctor/patient relationship

The club doctor falls under the High Performance Team, headed by Hass

Hass reports to the Head of Football - Burton

Both are culpable

 

[John Who]

Well they can’t do 2

But you’re also forgetting the role of the club doctor in all of this

The doctor is the one that refers to the specialist/surgeon, as it does in the normal doctor/patient relationship

The club doctor falls under the High Performance Team, headed by Hass

Hass reports to the Head of Football - Burton

Both are culpable

No I didn't forget, I actually mentioned in previous pages the club doctor and specialists are the ones making the calls on conservative vs surgery options. Hass and Burton can finalise the decisions if they want to, but in the end, they'd only be guessing.

Think SLoane/Bett's Appendix surgeries, did you honestly think Burton/Hass had any involvement in those decisions?

 

[El Doederino]

No I didn't forget, I actually mentioned in previous pages the club doctor and specialists are the ones making the calls on conservative vs surgery options. Hass and Burton can finalise the decisions if they want to, but in the end, they'd only be guessing.

Think SLoane/Bett's Appendix surgeries, did you honestly think Burton/Hass had any involvement in those decisions?

Of course not, but those are life or death decisions. They aren’t even comparable.

 

[BunjiMac]

The club can go either of 2 ways:
1. Agree/accept the decisions made by the specialists/surgeons
2. Talk Brad against medical advice - one could argue that this could be a negligent act, if this was the case.

I find it interesting that you continually end up in big arguments asserting your "medical knowledge" with everyone questioning what you are saying and doubting your credibility.

 

[John Who]

The word ‘fact’ is thrown around very lightly.



You haven’t answered one of my questions over the last five pages.


But I’ll bite;

If surgery was the best option during preseason, then why did the surgeon not get involved and surgery wasn't done then?

My guess is incompetence.
Same reason Walker wasn’t handled properly.
Same reason Sloane will miss half a season.

The fact that the Club did something, does not make it the correct option.

Sorry, my quote function isn’t working for multi.

Was the delay because the surgeon didn’t make the call?
I don’t know; how many opinions did we get? Whose opinion carried the most weight? Who decided to rest him for 6 months (now 9), before resorting to surgery?
Sorry to answer a question with questions, but, once again, the call was the wrong one - so all involved are culpable. At present, we have a litany of incompetence from our fitness and conditioning staff; so them stuffing this up is a reasonable assumption.


Your last question is a little hard to interpret; but if the decision was made to go the rest route in the pre season, and we’ve only just reviewed that decision, it’s another example of incompetence.

If Brad chose not to have surgery, I’m sure that would’ve been part of the rhetoric from the Club - it’s nothing to hide from.


I’m not sure how well that answers your questions, but you aren’t asking questions that can be easily answered (which is deliberate, I assume).

My questions are a little more simple and straight forward, they don’t require opinions or supposition, so could you answer them?

Thanks

I gave you a like not because I agree, but for taking the time to answer my questions.

I highlighted all the assumptions you've made, and most of them being simply that: assumptions. There are no hard facts in your arguments.

"the call was a wrong one", says who? You and Feenix? Or one of the surgeons about to do surgery for Brad?

"reasonable assumption" to put the blame on the fitness/conditioning staff, is actually not "reasonable" at all when the facts are: Brad decided surgery in conjunction with his docs/surgeons. Just like Sloane/Betts deciding on the advice of their surgeons, not from Burton/Hass!

"we've only just reviewed that decision" is another assumption. How do you know the plan was to try resting for 2 months, and if it failed, then they'd consider surgery? You could be right, but it's still an assumption on your part.

"If Brad chose not to have surgery, I’m sure that would’ve been part of the rhetoric from the Club" is another baseless assumption.

So what it means really, is that no matter what happens you're gonna make assumptions to put the blame back on Burton/Hass. Different scenarios call for different arguments, not to continually pump out assumptions and accusations.

 

[John Who]

I find it interesting that you continually end up in big arguments asserting your "medical knowledge" with everyone questioning what you are saying and doubting your credibility.

And I've been meaning to ask, how you seem to be in the health sector and not seeing the meat of the argument on this thread. And choosing to question my credibility instead of any genuine discussion?

 

[feenix67]

I gave you a like not because I agree, but for taking the time to answer my questions.

I highlighted all the assumptions you've made, and most of them being simply that: assumptions. There are no hard facts in your arguments.

"the call was a wrong one", says who? You and Feenix? Or one of the surgeons about to do surgery for Brad?

"reasonable assumption" to put the blame on the fitness/conditioning staff, is actually not "reasonable" at all when the facts are: Brad decided surgery in conjunction with his docs/surgeons. Just like Sloane/Betts deciding on the advice of their surgeons, not from Burton/Hass!

"we've only just reviewed that decision" is another assumption. How do you know the plan was to try resting for 2 months, and if it failed, then they'd consider surgery? You could be right, but it's still an assumption on your part.

"If Brad chose not to have surgery, I’m sure that would’ve been part of the rhetoric from the Club" is another baseless assumption.

So what it means really, is that no matter what happens you're gonna make assumptions to put the blame back on Burton/Hass. Different scenarios call for different arguments, not to continually pump out assumptions and accusations.

Please take your own advice.

 

[El Doederino]

And I've been meaning to ask, how you seem to be in the health sector and not seeing the meat of the argument on this thread. And choosing to question my credibility instead of any genuine discussion?

What is the meat of the argument in your view?

 

[thirtytwo]

All very interesting but that’s not what anyone is saying. If you are suggesting that Crouch and his parents (maybe) and the surgeon are the only parties involved in the decision you are naive to the extreme

If Burton is not involved in the process he should be sacked immediately. That is his role.

Nobody has the right to make a decision but Brad. That’s true in every respect in all walks of life. If I need surgery, a doctor can’t just do it without either me or my attorney’s approval. Saying the same thing for a footballer offers no value.

Brad must approve any surgery

But

Brad would not be an expert on such matters. So he’d take on the advice of those supporting him, to make a decision.

This is where Burton and the club comes in. Yes, they can’t force him against his will, but they can offer guidance as it’s their role. If Brad says no, we work towards something else. That’s the distinction.

So your saying it’s Brad’s decision in the end......which is exactly the point you are arguing against isnt it?
It does not matter if Burton was involved or not, the decision on his course of treatment remains Brad’s not the clubs.

No fan of Burton or Hass, but can someone provide categorical evidence that either of these two either have or have not ”offered guidance” that Brad get surgery?
I am supremely confident that Burton and the club were making their recommendations to Brad, whether it was for or against surgery I don’t know, but their advice would have taken into consideration the recommendation of each and every single doctor, specialist or surgeon that has assessed Brad’s condition.
The club has to be guided by these experts and would be completely stupid to even consider suggesting a course of treatment without their input, or even more stupid, as some are implying here, they go ahead and ignore medical recommendations completely and try to devise their own treatment plan.

For the club to be accused of mismanaging this injury would require actual evidence that they have ignored earlier medical advice to get the surgery, convinced Brad their option is better and have evidence Brad was coerced into taking their option against his better judgment.
If Brad has agreed to what the club proposed, then he and we have no one to blame for this situation but him because ultimately the decision on what treatment option he undertakes, based on the recommendations he has received from all parties, are up to him.

Not knowing the exact nature of the injury and the exact surgery planned to rectify it and the exact dialogue between Brad and the club is just resulting in arguing semantics, innuendo and pathetic attempts at cheap point scoring.
No one here is qualified to be arguing this issue, it is what it is until more evidence that Brad was or was not mismanaged comes to light.

 

[BunjiMac]

And I've been meaning to ask, how you seem to be in the health sector and not seeing the meat of the argument on this thread. And choosing to question my credibility instead of any genuine discussion?

Who said I was in the health sector?

And I'm simply making an observation.

 

[GreyCrow]

Wrong very much wrong, It not Burton never was nor has been Burton's decision, Burton has stuff up in a lot of areas but you cannot pin this one on him.
That the Problem with witch hunts, the truth sometimes is the one fact that people miss.

Surgeon advises the patent. Brad makes the Call, Injury does not progress and does not improve, Surgeon advises the next range of fixes.
Then in conjunction with advice from the Surgeon, Club Doctor, (Dr Duncan Walker) along with advice from his parents. Yes Brad parents were involved in this call. Brad then makes a call.
Australia is not the US or Europe and we have very stringent rules, follow that up with the AFLPA and their guidelines.
Clubs cannot and will not force a player against his will to have surgery, Surgeon/doctors will not and cannot force a player to have surgery on the Clubs behalf, and if they believe the Club is forcing the issue they have a duty of care to report.
The Club Pays for the Treatment and any cost involved that payment does not allow them the right to make the final decision, and any threats whether real or perceived, is not allowed.

What about the OH&S implications? As an employee if the employers method of choice is surgery then Brad as an employee only has a second opinion as recourse, otherwise it is surgery.

 

[Doc_]

And I've been meaning to ask, how you seem to be in the health sector and not seeing the meat of the argument on this thread. And choosing to question my credibility instead of any genuine discussion?

You dont have any credibility to question.

 

[John Who]

Who said I was in the health sector?

And I'm simply making an observation.

Well it seemed like it, from your posts and how confident you are with all the anatomy knowledge of the back of the knee.
Funny how you were showing all the fancy diagrams on "knee tendinitis", and yet choose to stay out of proper discussions on this thread. There are serious issues I'm discussing here, please do not downplay the merit of the arguments.

 

[El Doederino]

So your saying it’s Brad’s decision in the end......which is exactly the point you are arguing against isnt it?
It does not matter if Burton was involved or not, the decision on his course of treatment remains Brad’s not the clubs.

No fan of Burton or Hass, but can someone provide categorical evidence that either of these two either have or have not ”offered guidance” that Brad get surgery?
I am supremely confident that Burton and the club were making their recommendations to Brad, whether it was for or against surgery I don’t know, but their advice would have taken into consideration the recommendation of each and every single doctor, specialist or surgeon that has assessed Brad’s condition.
The club has to be guided by these experts and would be completely stupid to even consider suggesting a course of treatment without their input, or even more stupid, as some are implying here, they go ahead and ignore medical recommendations completely and try to devise their own treatment plan.

For the club to be accused of mismanaging this injury would require actual evidence that they have ignored earlier medical advice to get the surgery, convinced Brad their option is better and have evidence Brad was coerced into taking their option against his better judgment.
If Brad has agreed to what the club proposed, then he and we have no one to blame for this situation but him because ultimately the decision on what treatment option he undertakes, based on the recommendations he has received from all parties, are up to him.

Not knowing the exact nature of the injury and the exact surgery planned to rectify it and the exact dialogue between Brad and the club is just resulting in arguing semantics, innuendo and pathetic attempts at cheap point scoring.
No one here is qualified to be arguing this issue, it is what it is until more evidence that Brad was or was not mismanaged comes to light.

The evidence that this has been mismanaged is the fact he is now going into surgery 9months at least after the club knew it was an issue

The evidence that Hass and Burton are culpable is in their job title.

Anything else is semantics and buck passing.

 

[BunjiMac]

Well it seemed like it, from your posts and how confident you are with all the anatomy knowledge of the back of the knee.
Funny how you were showing all the fancy diagrams on "knee tendinitis", and yet choose to stay out of proper discussions on this thread. There are serious issues I'm discussing here, please do not downplay the merit of the arguments.

I haven't downplayed anytging or made any accusations, defensive much?

 

[John Who]

So your saying it’s Brad’s decision in the end......which is exactly the point you are arguing against isnt it?
It does not matter if Burton was involved or not, the decision on his course of treatment remains Brad’s not the clubs.

No fan of Burton or Hass, but can someone provide categorical evidence that either of these two either have or have not ”offered guidance” that Brad get surgery?
I am supremely confident that Burton and the club were making their recommendations to Brad, whether it was for or against surgery I don’t know, but their advice would have taken into consideration the recommendation of each and every single doctor, specialist or surgeon that has assessed Brad’s condition.
The club has to be guided by these experts and would be completely stupid to even consider suggesting a course of treatment without their input, or even more stupid, as some are implying here, they go ahead and ignore medical recommendations completely and try to devise their own treatment plan.

For the club to be accused of mismanaging this injury would require actual evidence that they have ignored earlier medical advice to get the surgery, convinced Brad their option is better and have evidence Brad was coerced into taking their option against his better judgment.
If Brad has agreed to what the club proposed, then he and we have no one to blame for this situation but him because ultimately the decision on what treatment option he undertakes, based on the recommendations he has received from all parties, are up to him.

Not knowing the exact nature of the injury and the exact surgery planned to rectify it and the exact dialogue between Brad and the club is just resulting in arguing semantics, innuendo and pathetic attempts at cheap point scoring.
No one here is qualified to be arguing this issue, it is what it is until more evidence that Brad was or was not mismanaged comes to light.

You need to post more often...

This thread should be about finding the truth, not throwing opinions around in order win an argument. It's nonsensical!

 

[mistylake]

recurrence
If something is happening yet again, there's a recurrence of it. Most sports fans hope there isn't a recurrence of last year's losing season.

If you keep getting a hacking cough, then you're having a recurrence — that cough just keeps coming back. The word recurrence has to do with things that repeat or return, often at predictable times. If your dog barks at the same time every day, your neighbors might complain about the recurrence of noise.

In this case, his groin issues are a recurrence.

I believe what Feenix67 is suggesting is it’s been there permanently but masked by painkillers which have become ineffective.

 

[John Who]

I haven't downplayed anytging or made any accusations, defensive much?

You actually made an accusation when you mentioned credibility on my part. Have I said anything outlandish on this particular thread?

 

[feenix67]

What about the OH&S implications? As an employee if the employers method of choice is surgery then Brad as an employee only has a second opinion as recourse, otherwise it is surgery.

That's an excellent point. He is, after all, an employee. More to the point, there has been more than one case of negligence successfully brought against the AFL.

 

[BunjiMac]

You actually made an accusation when you mentioned credibility on my part. Have I said anything outlandish on this particular thread?

I made an observation of how your conversations seem to always end up.

I didn't make any accusations.

 

[feenix67]

You need to post more often...

This thread should be about finding the truth, not throwing opinions around in order win an argument. It's nonsensical!

You can't find the truth if your analysis is bias towards a desired "truth".

 

[John Who]

I made an observation of how your conversations seem to always end up.

I didn't make any accusations.

yeah they end up being mocked by the same group of "pros". Yet when I talk health matters from members outside this board, the same group of "pros" suddenly go all quiet. What does that tell you?

 

[FR0GGY]

Who said I was in the health sector?

And I'm simply making an observation.

You’re right, Who said it.

And I've been meaning to ask, how you seem to be in the health sector and not seeing the meat of the argument on this thread. And choosing to question my credibility instead of any genuine discussion?

 

[pjcrows]

You need to post more often...

This thread should be about finding the truth, not throwing opinions around in order win an argument. It's nonsensical!

When people initially posted the truth, you dismissed it as scuttlebutt. Then when people used rational judgements about how the club has managed his injury based on the information available, you rubbished it.