Traded Brad Hill [traded with future 3rd to St Kilda for Acres, #10, #58, future 2nd and 4th]

[CatToTheFuture]

The problem the Cats have is getting what they want, what club can afford to trade for these early picks - have a look at the Dangerfield deal as what can be done verses what you want, of course no harm in dreaming.

I look at the Dangerfield trade a little differently in that the back up option of a one year contract at the crows then becoming UFA where he walks for a single pick was less appealing than what the cats put on the table which is why Danger went for unders. Kelly won't have unrestricted free agency as leverage until he's a 30 year old veteran for the cats. Threatening to walk to the draft is basically saying he'll go to Freo or any one of the 6-12 clubs that will have a pick before them so I'm not sure that holds as much leverage for WCE

Do you have any kids running around in the wafl who are maybe looking ok as a future ruck? Do you have any developing but still second tier kpfs getting a game in the seniors here and there? Any utility type players that may not have lived up to the hype? Do you have a 2019 1st, a future 1st, Sydney's second for currently available picks? If your answers here are yes you might have a bit more to work with than you are letting on

 

[Scotland]

Getting what you want and getting what you want from what a particular club has are different propositions.

What any club usually wants when a star player leaves is a like for like replacement, but that almost never happens. Freo aren't going to trade Brad Hill to say Collingwood and get Steele Sidebottom in return. If he wanted to join us for some weird reason we would've just swap Hill for Gaff. Just throwing out names of guys around the same age bracket who play on the wing, not ranking anyone. Point is that clubs rarely say 'hey a gun 26 year old wingman is up for grabs, let's trade our gun 27/28 year old wingman for him'. Far more likely if it was Collingwood that they would want to offer draft picks and would be open to upgrading someone like Phillips or Thomas in the process. But they don't have any picks this year anyway so don't suit my hypothetical.

If Hill did decide to return to Melbourne Freo would be chasing early picks as the most likely valuable currency.

 

[Kwality]

I look at the Dangerfield trade a little differently in that the back up option of a one year contract at the crows then becoming UFA where he walks for a single pick was less appealing than what the cats put on the table which is why Danger went for unders. Kelly won't have unrestricted free agency as leverage until he's a 30 year old veteran for the cats. Threatening to walk to the draft is basically saying he'll go to Freo or any one of the 6-12 clubs that will have a pick before them so I'm not sure that holds as much leverage for WCE

Do you have any kids running around in the wafl who are maybe looking ok as a future ruck? Do you have any developing but still second tier kpfs getting a game in the seniors here and there? Any utility type players that may not have lived up to the hype? Do you have a 2019 1st, a future 1st, Sydney's second for currently available picks? If your answers here are yes you might have a bit more to work with than you are letting on

You reflect the lack of understanding of what Simmo has done since he arrived. He debuted 9 in 2018 & so far only Ryan, Rioli & Oscar Allen are regulars, we've got Kennedy & Hurn ageing, with Vardy, Cripps, Hutchings, Josh Smith & Yeo on their 2nd club.
Maybe the likes of Jarryd Cameron would be on your hit list but with bro Charlie going home to Brisbane it'd be a big punt, maybe Dan Venables a mid fielder from Vic, premiership player but seems injury prone, on the periphery & Simmo has faith.
Bailey Williams is reputedly the best big in the 2018 draft, Victorian, in the Reserves.

No one jumps out, Tom Cole is a Bendigo boy, premiership player, been pushed out of the 22 by Brad Sheppard. No Tim Kelly swap that I can see.

 

[CatToTheFuture]

You reflect the lack of understanding of what Simmo has done since he arrived. He debuted 9 in 2018 & so far only Ryan, Rioli & Oscar Allen are regulars, we've got Kennedy & Hurn ageing, with Vardy, Cripps, Hutchings, Josh Smith & Yeo on their 2nd club.
Maybe the likes of Jarryd Cameron would be on your hit list but with bro Charlie going home to Brisbane it'd be a big punt, maybe Dan Venables a mid fielder from Vic, premiership player but seems injury prone, on the periphery & Simmo has faith.
Bailey Williams is reputedly the best big in the 2018 draft, Victorian, in the Reserves.

No one jumps out, Tom Cole is a Bendigo boy, premiership player, been pushed out of the 22 by Brad Sheppard. No Tim Kelly swap that I can see.

I'm not saying there's a Tim Kelly swap. I'm telling you there's several sets of steak knives that the cats might be interested in (You mentioned Williams and he looks like he'd cut a well done cut of gravy beef for example). All I'm pointing out is that when you say you can only trade what you have, there's enough there to satisfy all parties when you look at combinations picks and players.

 

[Kwality]

I'm not saying there's a Tim Kelly swap. I'm telling you there's several sets of steak knives that the cats might be interested in (You mentioned Williams and he looks like he'd cut a well done cut of gravy beef for example). All I'm pointing out is that when you say you can only trade what you have, there's enough there to satisfy all parties when you look at combinations picks and players.

such as? Dont know much about your 25+ ranked players.

 

[CatToTheFuture]

such as? Dont know much about your 25+ ranked players.

Are you saying there are no players at all on the west coast list the cats would be interested in? I would have thought Brander, Allen, and Williams would have generated some interest. I have to admit to not watching any of them much since they were draftees. My original point is that saying it'll be pick 15-18ish plus pick 24-27ish and that's it because that's all west coast has is demonstrably false. That might well be it but not due to a lack of available options

 

[Kwality]

Are you saying there are no players at all on the west coast list the cats would be interested in? I would have thought Brander, Allen, and Williams would have generated some interest. I have to admit to not watching any of them much since they were draftees. My original point is that saying it'll be pick 15-18ish plus pick 24-27ish and that's it because that's all west coast has is demonstrably false. That might well be it but not due to a lack of available options

Michael Allen is a Victorian, Oscar is a Perth boy. Brander, forgot him, given he's not pushed into the ones in his 2nd year, from down your way would have to be on the table. Interesting that he's only been given single games, most debutants get at least 2.
My take is you are looking for top 10 picks, just not there. Reckon everything would have been considered so both clubs have a very good idea what it needs.
Think we'd be keen to keep Williams for NicNat, we've sent Cal Sinclair to Sydney & Scotty Lycett went home premiership in hand & got Vards & Tom Hickey, but as you say, there has to be options.

 

[Scotland]

This is the Brad Hill thread, not the Tim Kelly thread.

Let's be realistic though, every club has the currency available to trade for any player. You think West Coast couldn't get Nat Fyfe or Dustin Martin or Josh Kelly or whoever people deem the most sought after player of the day? Of course we could. But the AFL isn't the NBA. We're not going to trade Yeo + Darling + McGovern + 5 years worth of first round picks because (a) we can't and (b) we're not stupid.

Trades typically revolve around how much a club is willing to sacrifice in draft pick potential and whether they have players they are willing to part with. Freo were happy to let Lachie Neale leave last year because it meant they could bring in Hogan and Lobb who are both good players and fill areas of need. Hawthorn were willing to put Ryan Burton up for trade because they saw Chad Wingard as a better player in a bigger area of need. These trades are more the exception than the norm. Generally clubs just trade picks with the max offering usually being 2 x 1st round picks with a 2nd round pick coming back the other way.

 

[fnerd]

Yep, both parties carry risk into the contract.
It’s why I’m pretty non plussed by hill and his management seeking more money by having it played out in the media.
Telling most something they already knew but Colin young really is a grub

Also Billy’s already broken a contract to “come home”- wanting to do it again doesn’t exactly paint him in the best light either, especially with the want of more money at play too now.

Edit apologies for posting this in this thread .
mods, feel free to move to the brad hill thread

 

[WallyStringhaus]

Three way trade.

Dogs give their 2020 1st rounder to Geelong. Receive Hill.

Freo give their 2019 1st rounder to Geelong. Receive Kelly.

Cats get two first rounders for Kelly.

Add pick swaps or steak knives where necessary.

 

[Snuffaluphagus]

Three way trade.

Dogs give their 2020 1st rounder to Geelong. Receive Hill.

Freo give their 2019 1st rounder to Geelong. Receive Kelly.

Cats get two first rounders for Kelly.

Add pick swaps or steak knives where necessary.

I can promise you we arent giving up Hill who is contracted for two more years AND a top 10 pick for an uncontracted Kelly

 

[WallyStringhaus]

I can promise you we arent giving up Hill who is contracted for two more years AND a top 10 pick for an uncontracted Kelly

Yeah that's a fair call. I just really want Hill at the Dogs. Dead set gun. We gave you prime Hamling for SFA surely you can return the favour...lol.

 

[Snuffaluphagus]

Yeah that's a fair call. I just really want Hill at the Dogs. Dead set gun. We gave you prime Hamling for SFA surely you can return the favour...lol.

Haha, you can probably wait a couple of years, should be an early second by then =)

 

[WallyStringhaus]

Haha, you can probably wait a couple of years, should be an early second by then =)

In fairness Crozier has been amazing for us so we are probably square. If only all teams could trade as fairly as our teams do.

 

[Snuffaluphagus]

In fairness Crozier has been amazing for us so we are probably square. If only all teams could trade as fairly as our teams do.

Good points on Croz. We have always been extremely easy to deal with for our uncontracted players (which has me worried for Tucker and Langdon) but we draw a line in the sand for contracted ones. I expect if Hill does go, the supporters are going to be shitty with what they pay

 

[WallyStringhaus]

Good points on Croz. We have always been extremely easy to deal with for our uncontracted players (which has me worried for Tucker and Langdon) but we draw a line in the sand for contracted ones. I expect if Hill does go, the supporters are going to be s**tty with what they pay

What's his worth? I personally think he is the best wingman in the league.

 

[Snuffaluphagus]

What's his worth? I personally think he is the best wingman in the league.

I personally believe, in a vacuum, any team should be happy to pay pick 7-10 for him. With the way he has played for us over the last three years he is the best pure wingman in the league and is on a completely different level then when he was at Hawthorn. Being an outside player, at his age, he has at least 5 years of eiite football left. Most picks in that range dont get to the level Hill has played at over the last 3 years (when not injured). To add to that, I think yourselves or Melbourne would do that trade in an instant given the young inside players you already have, the age bracket of your lists and the need for outside run but thats just me.

Unfortunately for other teams, he is contracted for another 2 years, and, if things go according to plan (though the last month has been a complete disaster) we would be competing for a flag in 2021. We arent going to let him go unless its something close to direct swap for Kelly OR a stupid deal that is too hard to pass up which would be like a Treloar/Shiel type offer (2 top 10 with Hill and a low 2nd coming back), which is generally the max a player goes for.

People will scoff at that idea but that's what I mean when I say the supporters that get him will be pissed at first if a trade gets done. Its how we've operated with enough evidence over the past few trade periods for me to be pretty confident that will be how we go about this. There is a very high chance that Hill is playing for us next year and the year after given what I believe the asking price will be.

 

[free at last]

Melbourne give Freo their first pick-Freo hand over Hill.

Freo hand over Melbourne's first to Geelong and Geelong hand over Kelly....Fremantle might need to throw in next year's second or third.

 

[Scotland]

Freo got pick 2 for Lachie Weller remember, they are unlikely to be pushovers.

Why did they get pick 2? Gold Coast had it (among other first round picks), Weller wanted Gold Coast and Gold Coast really wanted an established player who actively wanted to be there.

If a club really wants Hill I'm sure they'll put a decent offer on the table.

 

[AFDogs]

Sorry - a bit out of the loop here.

Why does Brad Hill want out? He's a WA boy, playing with his brother and left the Hawks of all teams to go there. What's changed and is he open to going anywhere, or just wants to come back to Vic?

 

[Snuffaluphagus]

Sorry - a bit out of the loop here.

Why does Brad Hill want out? He's a WA boy, playing with his brother and left the Hawks of all teams to go there. What's changed and is he open to going anywhere, or just wants to come back to Vic?

Said to be a combination of money and his girlfriend wanting to go back

 

[Flags_In_The_Bag]

I personally believe, in a vacuum, any team should be happy to pay pick 7-10 for him. With the way he has played for us over the last three years he is the best pure wingman in the league and is on a completely different level then when he was at Hawthorn. Being an outside player, at his age, he has at least 5 years of eiite football left. Most picks in that range dont get to the level Hill has played at over the last 3 years (when not injured). To add to that, I think yourselves or Melbourne would do that trade in an instant given the young inside players you already have, the age bracket of your lists and the need for outside run but thats just me.

Unfortunately for other teams, he is contracted for another 2 years, and, if things go according to plan (though the last month has been a complete disaster) we would be competing for a flag in 2021. We arent going to let him go unless its something close to direct swap for Kelly OR a stupid deal that is too hard to pass up which would be like a Treloar/Shiel type offer (2 top 10 with Hill and a low 2nd coming back), which is generally the max a player goes for.

People will scoff at that idea but that's what I mean when I say the supporters that get him will be pissed at first if a trade gets done. Its how we've operated with enough evidence over the past few trade periods for me to be pretty confident that will be how we go about this. There is a very high chance that Hill is playing for us next year and the year after given what I believe the asking price will be.

The contract means nothing if the player wants out or the team wants him out. Example Stringer at the dogs who was contracted and even though we wanted him out we still knew he would be in the best 15 players at another club like Hill would be.

 

[Snuffaluphagus]

The contract means nothing if the player wants out or the team wants him out. Example Stringer at the dogs who was contracted and even though we wanted him out we still knew he would be in the best 15 players at another club like Hill would be.

I disagree and think an example where the club pushed out a player is a poor one and not in any way applicable. Apart from being money hungry and/or whipped, we actually like Brad Hill.

Hill is contracted for 2 years. The last time a player tried to leave with that amount of time left on there contract was Gibbs. Carlton got overs. Other examples relative to how Freo do business is Weller and Neale. We got overs or essentially traded for another established player we were chasing. These are three examples that are infinitely more applicable than you pushing Stringer out

 

[Flags_In_The_Bag]

I disagree and think an example where the club pushed out a player is a poor one and not in any way applicable. Apart from being money hungry and/or whipped, we actually like Brad Hill.

Hill is contracted for 2 years. The last time a player tried to leave with that amount of time left on there contract was Gibbs. Carlton got overs. Other examples relative to how Freo do business is Weller and Neale. We got overs or essentially traded for another established player we were chasing. These are three examples that are infinitely more applicable than you pushing Stringer out

Pushing out a contracted player and a contracted player wanting out due to unrest or to go to another state due to his partner are the same in my opinion. You dont keep a unhappy player and you don't keep a player you want out. You dont get overs, just we didnt with Hamling who went home for various reasons.

 

[Mojorisin]

My attempt at an even trade
Dog trade picks 40, 42, 43 and our future first
Freo give hill and pick 26.

Picks 40, 42 and 43 are the points equivalent of about pick 13 which will help Freo in getting their nga kid. (Nearly double the points of the original pick 26). Plus they get that first rounder next year.