Topkent
Confirmed ITK Drafting King
I would consider him in the same group of players as someone like David Neitz is to forwards. He's not with the Franklins/Lloyds/Careys but sits comfortably in the tier just below who were club champions.
Brent Harvey - Let's get serious
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Topkent
Confirmed ITK Drafting King
There is no such thing as a lucky Brownlow winner. It's an award for the player the umpires deemed the best over the course of a season and those 2 blokes were winners. They weren't the best players in the AFL but they were deserving Brownlow winners.
If they weren't the best players they weren't deserving winners. Ablett jr deserved to win it the year Cooney won it. Cooney didn't deserve to win it.
- Apr 18, 2005
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Well seeing the umpires vote on it, it's essentially there call. They obviously didn't vote on Gary.
Quite funny that he couldn't handle the tag, yet he was tagged every week because as we all know "North have no star players" and he was always rated as the competition's most dangerous player by Champion Data.
Jones was a good tagger and had some success against Harvey (once kept him to 5 disposals when the Saints were flying) but to suggest he couldn't handle a tag is fanciful.
He beat hundreds of tags.
I think it's just the way the media portrays these guys and how involved they stay with football.
Hird, Voss and Buckley always seem to be the 3 mentioned as super stars.
They were elite, not doubt about that.
But I wouldn't have them head and shoulders above R. Harvey, Black, Cousins, Crawford, West, Riccuito and B. Harvey.
Thing is Hird, Voss and Buckley were regularly on Footy Shows and in the media, they also went on to become head coaches so were constantly talked about, their names were synonymous with big successes of their clubs during their playing days and there was a story to tell with each of them.
Crawford went too far into being a clown and people forgot how good a player he was, Cousins also went too far...
People don't much like Riccuito or B. Harvey much for various reasons.
While R. Harvey, Black and West have gone into assistant coaching, but aren't in the spotlight at all.
I don't think the B. Harvey is really a lesser player than the 10 players mentioned, they all have pros and cons and the discussion on who was the best of this era will rage on, but the reason he doesn't get named amongst the others is just a media thing I believe.
Because he didn't have the strength to get free from somebody hanging off them. The best taggers were very strong, Jones, Ling, Crowley, but they are a blight to the game if you ask me. The umps gave them a free ride to do everything except r**t em. So because Harvery didn't deal with tags as well as a Voss type, in my eyes didn't make him a lesser player, because left to run free he would cut you up. But he was still not as good as the other Harvey, not many were.
Topkent
Confirmed ITK Drafting King
Once again thought is an umpires award so yes they deserved to win the award.
Don't worry, he beat hundreds of tags throughout his 432 games, it was so rare that he got beaten by a tagger that it made headlines every time one got him.
A good example is Crowley and Picken both keeping him quiet when they were at the peak of their powers as taggers and Harvey returning serve with interest (multiple 30 possession x 3 goal games) on them when he was 35+ and they became "too old" to run with him in the midfield.
Harvey worked Crowley out after a couple of good battles, if he stayed on the ground and didn't let Crowley get a rest on the bench he would eventually wear him down.
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Care to elaborate?
Snake_Baker
The one true King of the North
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The greatest half forward line in any of the TOTC's once you put Schimmelbusch on the other flank.
As for Boomer. Gun. Certainly one of the contemporary greats. Only knock was his trouble with a hard tag when he was playing as a permanent midfielder. Norths lack of midfield depth at the time also had an effect on this.
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Very much overrated
Snake_Baker
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- Hird wasn't a midfielder.
- Voss & Black had each other, Lappin, Hart, MacRae and Akermanis riding shotgun.
- Judd, Cousins and Kerr all had each other.
Harvey had to make do with Daniel Wells............when he was fit enough to play.
Plonk Brent Harvey in Collingwood 2002 to 2015 and he would have 5 Copeland's and a statue outside the Holden centre.
Interesting, so Kennedy is just a good average player?
Harvey would often either play whole games as a flanker, or parts of games as a flanker. It's difficult to tag flankers because a) they're generally more crafty than taggers and b) you're devoting a player to play on a guy when he already has an opponent, a defender. So often when he played closer to goal, no, he didn't get tagged.
When he played more in the midfield, teams would sometimes tag him. In some ways, I see the amount of times a player can be tagged as a weakness, as often great stars, like Ablett, Judd, Mitchell became untaggable. Harvey played more outside and was damaging, which means the tag was a complement, but it was also an insult, as genuine inside/outside guns struggle to be tagged.
And sure, Harvey fought through some tags, but I would claim, in response to the op that his game was less influential than the like of Ablett, Judd, Mitchell, and currently, Dangerfield and Martin.
I mean let's put this into perspective, Martin kicked 37 goals this season (which just for the record is more than Harvey ever kicked in a season) and had 29 goal assists, again more, since that stat was first recorded. He blows out Harvey in the inside stuff as well, and you'd be hard pressed to argue that Harvey was more damaging on the outside. Martin's season this season is superior to any season Harvey put together.
Notice that teams aren't sitting on Martin and Dangerfield, not because they're not good players, or because there's better players to tag, but because a) they have the inside/outside game to beat tags and do everything and b) they're so strong and taller than most taggers and small defenders that a tagger will be lost if they go forward.
Well for one you're kind of proving my point that it's his environment that has meant he's not seen in the same light.
But you're having a laugh if you think Harvey didn't play with some very good midfielders...
Harvey played football with Bell, Simpson, Grant, Stevens, Swallow, King, Wells, Rawlings, Ziebell, Cunnington and Liam Anthony.
Had Burton and Goldstein palming it down.
If you think Harvey was left to run tag-free the closer he got to goal you are kidding yourself. As the CD graphic shows, he was the most damaging player in the AFL by a number of deviations for a 5 year period between 2010 - 2014, which makes him far more damaging than the players you mention above during that period.....note where Dangerfield sits.
You will have to compare Martin to Harvey in selective single seasons because the reality is Martin has only performed at Harvey's level for an entire season once or twice at 27 years of age. When Martin produces his eighth season of 30+ goals let me know.
That Harvey is easier to tag might come with the fact his true height is 167cm and Martin's is 187cm so obviously it was going to be harder for him to cope with gorillas like Ling, Picken, Jones and Crowley hanging off him......BUT he beat the tag more often than not.
Snake_Baker
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Bell - Gone by 2000
Simpson - An excellent trench grunt, but not someone that would combine a lot with Harvey
Grant - Predominately a forward
Stevens - Done just as Boomer was arriving
Swallow - See Simpson
King - A half back
Wells - Always injured.
Rawlings - Spent his last 5 years in the back pocket
Ziebell - Boomer went to the HFF by then
Cunnington- Boomer went to the HFF by then
and Liam Anthony - LOL
Who gives a sh*t if the umpires vote on it. It doesn't make a player any more deserving than another just because the umpires vote on the award. Seriously the most ridiculous thing I have heard.
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One thing he isn't is overrated
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Well yeah it kind of does if they are the governing body deciding. At the end of the day I've come to accept that those awards are designed a certain way, whether I or you like it or not.
There are always anomalies with different scenarios that arise that you don't like. Yeah I'd love Richo to have had a Brownlow, and Scott West had a better career than Woewodin, but hey, thems the breaks.
Deal with it.
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Because he was the worst 400 game player that played AFL games in 2016 OF ALL TIME.
ezard15
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Too short and annoying to be considered one of the greats.
Plus he played for the weakest Victorian club that we all know will be re-located to Tasmania within the next couple of years.
Now just hold off replying until I go and get my popcorn please
Plus he played for the weakest Victorian club that we all know will be re-located to Tasmania within the next couple of years.
Now just hold off replying until I go and get my popcorn please
I am sure that not every Brownlow medalist has been deserving of their Brownlow. Just because the umpires give them votes it doesn't make them deserving. Jo Blo could have a terrible year and get votes off umpires, and he would be a Brownlow winner, but not a deserving winner. I hope I simplified that enough for you.
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Get the chip off your shoulder and quit trying to patronise me to make yourself feel intelligent. It isn't working.
The way it works is that the umpires vote on the award, so regardless whether you feel someone else is better is really irrelevant. At that particular point in time, votes were given a certain way. Since 2000 I'd be pretty happy with the winners and I'd say they got them right. Woewodin and Cooney haven't had great careers but hey, they obviously had great seasons.
Don't bother responding if you're going to come back with a sarcastic or patronising retort to inflate your own self opinion at the expense of what I have explained simply enough for you.
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