Brent Harvey's comments...

[King Corey]

His coach forced him to apologise to the players yesterday.

Could well be a worse leader than Brad Johnson.

Very unprofessional, but given the environment in which he works, it's sort of fitting.

Up to your post, I was impressed how on-topic this thread had stayed. We/Boomer copping plenty of criticism but at least educated opinions either way.

Guess there was always going to be a Bay 13esque juvenile post emerge at some point.

 

[TownleyTime]

It all stems from North having poor leadership at the top.

Brayshaw & Arocca are weak leaders & they have passed it onto Harvey.

 

[King Corey]

It all stems from North having poor leadership at the top.

Brayshaw & Arocca are weak leaders & they have passed it onto Harvey.

What decisions or actions have they made that suggested they were weak leaders?

Not debating the point, curious why you think this.

 

[laminex]

What decisions or actions have they made that suggested they were weak leaders?

Not debating the point, curious why you think this.

*cough* he's a troll *cough*

 

[MarkT2]

Either Harvey has blown it and won't be captain next year or he will have sent the message and it will be responded to. I don't know which way the playing group will go or even if they have the quality among them their supporters pematurely trumpeted but the basis of what Harvey said has some merit. They have drafted players before some Collingwood picks and there is no comparrison in output. You can argue that Collingwood's structure, game plan coaching or whatever is the main reason but at some point that has to be overtaken by ability, application and desire.

Harvey said that time is now.

The next few weeks will (or at least should) decide if he has a captaincy next year. He is now in the hands of those he targetted.

 

[Tas]

Either Harvey has blown it and won't be captain next year or he will have sent the message and it will be responded to. I don't know which way the playing group will go or even if they have the quality among them their supporters pematurely trumpeted but the basis of what Harvey said has some merit. They have drafted players before some Collingwood picks and there is no comparrison in output. You can argue that Collingwood's structure, game plan coaching or whatever is the main reason but at some point that has to be overtaken by ability, application and desire.

Harvey said that time is now.

The next few weeks will (or at least should) decide if he has a captaincy next year. He is now in the hands of those he targetted.

Like Stevens and Simpson before him, North has passed the captaincy on before the player has retired. Not sure if the same will happen, I think the next captain will be one of the younger players or perhaps Swallow. If it is Swallow I would expect him to get it soon, if they have a younger player in mind they are waiting to mature it may be further down the track.

We have the bye this week so nothing will change this week but after that we head to Perth again for Freo and then have the Tigers. We would want to see a significant improvement over the next three weeks.

 

[Groggyk]

Either Harvey has blown it and won't be captain next year or he will have sent the message and it will be responded to. I don't know which way the playing group will go or even if they have the quality among them their supporters pematurely trumpeted but the basis of what Harvey said has some merit. They have drafted players before some Collingwood picks and there is no comparrison in output. You can argue that Collingwood's structure, game plan coaching or whatever is the main reason but at some point that has to be overtaken by ability, application and desire.

Harvey said that time is now.

The next few weeks will (or at least should) decide if he has a captaincy next year. He is now in the hands of those he targetted.

You make some good points, but I'm just thinking that Collingwood have probably had the most charmed run with injury in the competition for the best part of 18months. I'm yet to see a Premiership come from a side who hasn't had similar good fortune on the injury front. I'm not using this as an excuse for Saturdays poor effort by North, but the problem with some of our promising kids has been to actually get them all on the park at the same time for a sustained period of time.

 

[MarkT2]

Understand that and I am not passing judgment on any of the individuals. What I mean was that Harvey said enough excuses. The time is now. That is a good perspective. Whether the delivery was smart is debatable. I suspect there are a few (maybe more than the 2 named) that he does think have relied on excuses. If not he was probably way out of line.

It may also be that some of the kids just aren't as good as hoped. You'd hope that isn't the case though becasue if it is it isn't fixable.

 

[Tas]

Understand that and I am not passing judgment on any of the individuals. What I mean was that Harvey said enough excuses. The time is now. That is a good perspective. Whether the delivery was smart is debatable. I suspect there are a few (maybe more than the 2 named) that he does think have relied on excuses. If not he was probably way out of line.

It may also be that some of the kids just aren't as good as hoped. You'd hope that isn't the case though becasue if it is it isn't fixable.

The reason the coach wasn't happy with his comments is because he is looking from the inside out and that doesn't give you perspective.

If you were to extract Sidebottom and put in Wright I bet he would be as damaging, if not more for the Pies in a side of that quality that has their midfield generating so much of the ball.

Swan has played his last 102 games consecutively, Thomas 97% of the last 102 games, Pendlebury 95% of the same run of games. That continuity is critical to a good side.

Since 2009 Swallow has played 46 of 46 games, Greenwood 28 (61%), Anthony 19 (41%) and Ziebell 26 (56%), other than Swallow they have all suffered serious injuries and interrupted pre-season.

It wont matter how good these kids are, until we can get proper continuity then they wont peak. Which was the last side to win a flag with their midfield being a revolving door due to injuries? None that I can remember.

 

[maddog37]

Thats a strange troll. Richie may not have been a great player, but he was an excellent captain.

It would seem that Boomer is skipper due to playing ability, not leadership ability - sometimes the two become easily confused.

Not strange. Just my opinion which is as valid as yours.

 

[Groggyk]

Understand that and I am not passing judgment on any of the individuals. What I mean was that Harvey said enough excuses. The time is now. That is a good perspective. Whether the delivery was smart is debatable. I suspect there are a few (maybe more than the 2 named) that he does think have relied on excuses. If not he was probably way out of line.

It may also be that some of the kids just aren't as good as hoped. You'd hope that isn't the case though becasue if it is it isn't fixable.

Yeah, the intention of Harvey to put a fire under the up and comers was a noble one, it was his execution that was poor I thought. I agree that it's time to let actions speak louder than words, (when talking of our promising list), which has been trumpeted by the club and various sections of the media.

I've got no doubt our young guys have the natural ability to be a force in a couple of years. What's needed is some continuity as a group and the desire to be the best combined with the mental strength to make it happen.

Hopefully Harvey's poorly executed spray has hit some targets who actually hold that kind of make up.

In reality though, we won't know for some time yet.

 

[SweetLeftFoot]

Understand that and I am not passing judgment on any of the individuals. What I mean was that Harvey said enough excuses. The time is now. That is a good perspective. Whether the delivery was smart is debatable. I suspect there are a few (maybe more than the 2 named) that he does think have relied on excuses. If not he was probably way out of line.

It may also be that some of the kids just aren't as good as hoped. You'd hope that isn't the case though becasue if it is it isn't fixable.

That's an entirely fair and informed post. Fair play to you.

 

[King Corey]

*cough* he's a troll *cough*

No doubt mate, thought I'd give him/her the benefit of the doubt.

 

[MarkT2]

If you were to extract Sidebottom and put in Wright I bet he would be as damaging, if not more for the Pies in a side of that quality that has their midfield generating so much of the ball.

I won't comment on Wright because I haven't seen enough of him. Sidebottom is going to at the very pointy end of the competition though. I still can't believe someone can kick 10 in a GF and last to pick 10 let alone be a midfielder and kick 10. He could very well have been a Norm Smith as a teenager.

He, like others, have been played with an eye to the future all along. Sidebottom, Beams, Wellingham and even Blair off the rookie list kept out 200 game players. September 2009 they got smashed by St. Kilda in a final when Pendlebury broke his leg early and Swan was lame. Just prior to that they truned around a final v Adelaide after a first quarter hammering.

Swan has played his last 102 games consecutively, Thomas 97% of the last 102 games, Pendlebury 95% of the same run of games. That continuity is critical to a good side.

No doubt. They do need to stay fit and sound but they were bloodded and played early and pre 2010 a lot of people had Collingwood as an average list and only around the top on the back of a good draw. All the while they were blooding kids and giving them finals.

It wont matter how good these kids are, until we can get proper continuity then they wont peak. Which was the last side to win a flag with their midfield being a revolving door due to injuries? None that I can remember.

Agree.

 

[AM]

Understand that and I am not passing judgment on any of the individuals. What I mean was that Harvey said enough excuses. The time is now. That is a good perspective. Whether the delivery was smart is debatable. I suspect there are a few (maybe more than the 2 named) that he does think have relied on excuses. If not he was probably way out of line.

It may also be that some of the kids just aren't as good as hoped. You'd hope that isn't the case though becasue if it is it isn't fixable.

There were two things Boomer did that showed poor judgement. One was publicly condemning team mates. The second was his comment about the players telling the selectors if they didn't want certain of their team mates in the team.

 

[Tas]

I won't comment on Wright because I haven't seen enough of him. Sidebottom is going to at the very pointy end of the competition though. I still can't believe someone can kick 10 in a GF and last to pick 10 let alone be a midfielder and kick 10. He could very well have been a Norm Smith as a teenager.

Sidebottom is an exceptional kid, it was basically between him and Ziebell for us but was more of a dilema of would you choose Buckley over Didak? At the time Swallow had a disappointing 2008 after recovering from injury, Harris was on the decline, Grant was retiring and Simpson was near the end, he was at the time a much better fit for our needs.

If someone had busted Sidebottoms' leg two years in a row and not Ziebell's then I think they would be at different levels today. That is a pretty massive setback for a kid.

Sidebottom had a very good last year in the juniors, his GF performance was just way above the level he played for the whole year. In hindsight you can say people missed it but a lot of people have been drafted based on highs they have never lived up to. Hell, we drafted Sansbury who gave Cooney a bath in the GF in their junior year, it doesn't always pan out how it did in the finals.

Wright is more like Thomas although he isn't give as much time on ground or allowed to play in the middle as much, he largely plays predominately half-forward flank. In Thomas' second year he had an average of 15 disposals and kicked 19 goals from 25 games. In Wright's second year (last year) he had 12 disposals average and kicked 23 goals from 19 games and the Pies were a lot more competitive in 2007 than we were in 2010 having made the PF that year.

It has really been 2010 in his 5th season when Daisy became more of a complete player and took that next step. I just think he was very harsh on him.

He, like others, have been played with an eye to the future all along. Sidebottom, Beams, Wellingham and even Blair off the rookie list kept out 200 game players. September 2009 they got smashed by St. Kilda in a final when Pendlebury broke his leg early and Swan was lame. Just prior to that they truned around a final v Adelaide after a first quarter hammering.No doubt. They do need to stay fit and sound but they were bloodded and played early and pre 2010 a lot of people had Collingwood as an average list and only around the top on the back of a good draw. All the while they were blooding kids and giving them finals.Agree.

I agree. Collingwood have recruited very well and developed very well but last year in particular you weren't put in the position where you had to rely heavily on the players 25-35 on your list as much as other clubs.

The ability to be able to choose not to play Lockyer, Fraser, Medhurst, O'Bree and Wood was huge. When you play the way Malthouse has the team playing it is all about workrate and execution and the more weak links you have in the chain the more prone it is not functioning at all how it is intended.

We struggled badly last year early on when both Greenwood and Lower were out injured, Greenwood in particular is a massively important cog in our midfield, we lost 4 of the 5 he missed and won 12 of the 17 he played. He is no Dane Swan, but he massively important to our ability to perform at stoppages as was Bastinac last year. They are important to our team

Take out Swan and Pendlebury and Pies should have still have won, even if we didn't finish poorly, but all of a sudden the makup of your side has to change, guys play a different role than they would play, more pressure and better opposition to who they are playing on. It all has cascading effects.

I think if we can finish this year off without any more serious injuries and have a strong pre-season and go through next year without major injuries I think 2013 will be massively different to how they will be if we continue playing the hospital ward side.

 

[mdc]

Sidebottom is an exceptional kid, it was basically between him and Ziebell for us but was more of a dilema of would you choose Buckley over Didak?

Yes. What has this got to do with Ziebell and Sidebottom?

 

[MarkT2]

All fair points Tas. Just on Sidebottom, 9 other clubs will justify their position and maybe all were actually correct to a degree but 10 goals isn't just a good game and he wasn't an also-ran prior to that. I was very very happy when I heard we drafted him and I don't even watch junior footy.

Hine seems to have good judgment and seems to put credence to GF/big game performance. Thomas was a TAC GF performer. No coincidence both performed in finals. In fact I recall Thomas final v Dogs in 2006 as a first year player and said at the time if everyone tried like he did we would won. Some layers just lift for the occassion. When they start off with real talent they are the players that win you premierships.

So back to the point - if Harvey thinks Norths equivielent players are up to that standard he has told them it's time to show it. I don't mind that so long as he has accurately judged the talent as well as the make up. If not, he's killed his captaincy IMO.

 

[TownleyTime]

The game looks to have completely passed Harvey by.