Mega Thread Brett Ratten

[incog43]

The people who run our club, clearly think he is up to it, but who are they to judge when compared to you? Obviously you believe you know a bit more about the game than those running our club. Why haven't the club turned to you to take a position in the Football Department, or even on the board, given you are so knowledgeable in these things. A Cometti-ism comes to mind when I read this sort of stuff "....is having delusions of adequacy."

Did I suggest they were competent?

My first post indicated a total clean out, you do net reward failure, and yes, that includes sticks.

Who am I? Well genuis, I am just a supporter who has watched 5 wasted years, to be clear, I know whats not working, that would be the current state of grace. Unlike yourself I dont listen to what people say, I watch what they do, Ratten has failed, would you like another 5 years of failure.

Perhaps unlike like yourself, I have played sport at an elite level, perhaps unlike yourself I am involved in business, and will not tolerate failure, perhaps unlike yourself, I choose to embrace reality and believe that change at times can be a catalyst, structured change, planned and considered. Perhaps I believe in getting the best man for the job, because history shows thats how best results are attained.

What do you believe, santa clause? Just saying.

 

[Blue Flame]

To be completely and objectively fair about this, Malthouse has more facial hair than Ratten, so there should be no doubt as to who is superior. I think you have all overlooked it.

 

[incog43]

Bloody hell, incoman, think the fella was named Canute or the like. Either way, he couldn't turn the sea around.

He did not have to, eventually the tide goes out

 

[incog43]

Bloody hell, incoman, think the fella was named Canute or the like. Either way, he couldn't turn the sea around.

Thy, Caligula went to war with Poseidon, he brought many treasure chests back to Rome filled to the brim with much booty(sea shells) and taught that god a lesson

 

[thylacine60]

He did not have to, eventually the tide goes out

Now successfully relate that back to Malthouse taking over and you can have your pick of any of the $5-10 prizes.

 

[Blue Flame]

Santa Clause? No.
But I have a lot of time for his wife, Subordinate.

Seriously though, incog43, I think deep down one of the things we fear most as supporters is that talent on the list is being wasted or mismanaged. If it is happening it seriously bothers me, and frustrates me.
Unfortunately, we have no real way of knowing if that is true, or even whether it is because of the coach, or the structures, or the players themselves.
I respect and hear your frustrations, I just can't see how we can tell, keeping in mind it will never be perfect under anyone.

 

[thylacine60]

W

Thy, Caligula went to war with Poseidon, he brought many treasure chests back to Rome filled to the brim with much booty(sea shells) and taught that god a lesson

Wasn't Caligula a Roman Emperor and Poseidon some sort of watery deity?

 

[incog43]

Now successfully relate that back to Malthouse taking over and you can have your pick of any of the $5-10 prizes.

To be fair Thy, I did make it clear.."Malthouse etal..."

Its the best man for the job, whoever that may be.

 

[incog43]

Santa Clause? No.
But I have a lot of time for his wife, Subordinate.

Seriously though, incog43, I think deep down one of the things we fear most as supporters is that talent on the list is being wasted or mismanaged. If it is happening it seriously bothers me, and frustrates me.
Unfortunately, we have no real way of knowing if that is true, or even whether it is because of the coach, or the structures, or the players themselves.
I respect and hear your frustrations, I just can't see how we can tell, keeping in mind it will never be perfect under anyone.

Good grief, no need to fear at all, it is being mismanaged, stop watching what people say and watch what they do, our list has been bastardized, our recruiting a disgrace, Mclean, CJ, so many mid sized half back flankers I have lost count.

Anyone watch young Talia last night? Long way to go, be interesting to see how he goes, oh yes, we have Lucas, who do you think we need right now, you do the math.

No one is accountable at our club, its not a business, its a circus, go the boys, send in the clowns.

 

[incog43]

W

Wasn't Caligula a Roman Emperor and Poseidon some sort of watery deity?

Just so.

 

[Blue Flame]

Hmm... Wasn't Neptune the corresponding Roman watery deity. Poseidon was Greek I thought (may be wrong).
I am not inclined to watch what people say, but I do see it both ways. Murphy became elite under Ratten, Yarran and Henderson became amazing backmen. Laidler and Duigan slotted in perfectly. Other than this year, which has been cruelled by injuries, we went from strength to strength.
There are, however, some problems, some of which are fairly big. Some players are not performing to expectation, for whatever reason. As a supporter who watches games on the TV in China, I have no way of knowing what the reason is.

 

[thylacine60]

Hmm... Wasn't Neptune the corresponding Roman watery deity. Poseidon was Greek I thought (may be wrong).
I am not inclined to watch what people say, but I do see it both ways. Murphy became elite under Ratten, Yarran and Henderson became amazing backmen. Laidler and Duigan slotted in perfectly. Other than this year, which has been cruelled by injuries, we went from strength to strength.
There are, however, some problems, some of which are fairly big. Some players are not performing to expectation, for whatever reason. As a supporter who watches games on the TV in China, I have no way of knowing what the reason is.

As a supporter who watches games live, neither do I.

 

[Silvagnis]

I've always backed Ratten because of the constant improvement in the squad and ladder position.However after 5 years we've gone from 11th in 08' to this year looking to miss the 8 and probably finish 10th going by my AFL ladder predictor. So in 5 years what ground have we made? We're not developing younger players as well as the other teams, and we're still giving guys a game who are simply no at the level required. Ratten is an unproven coach and is not deserving of anymore time at the helm.

If Ratten couldn't develop players, he wouldn't have pushed us into the finals in every season since 2008.

I think I saw a few discussions that we were gone after Fevola was dumped...

Walker, Murphy and Henderson clearly haven't developed under Ratten.

The sooner Malthouse signs on, the sooner the premiership chances will come. At seasons end (earlier if he can exit his media commitments) sign him up and he can start cutting of the the baggage and produce an actual game plan based on team structures and roles which doesn't just leave the work to the minority of our better players. He can go trade for some players he needs and draft the players he wants. This man will shoot our club membership past 50,000 as well, I'd guarantee it. You won't see Mick screaming "BALL!" on the boundary line when Robinson makes a tackle (slight exaggeration), but Mick will actually coach the team not be a supporter on the sidelines.

We're getting Mick's man Cameron Wood who is a bust?

Mick shows emotion by crying in the box and gesturing to an opposition player with an assistant that he's a rapist. The latter was a classless act like Sheedy running onto the field and making the cut throat gesture to an opposition player. I don't want Malthouse if Ratten goes. Carlton shouldn't take Collingwood's sacked veteran coach who was dumped for the untried Buckley.

Carlton was a different club when he signed Pagan, yet that big name coach didn't work out for us. Signing Malthouse would be a face saving and knee jerk reaction like getting Pagan. We would have been better off appointing a younger coach such as Worsfold who was at Carlton in 2002. The rest if history after the Eagles pounced and appointed Worsfold as coach. The Saints haven't looked back after Lyon was replaced by Watters.

at least with Mick we wont die wondering.

If we dont win a flag with Mick then we know that our list isnt as good as we think it is.

That would be true if flags were easy to win. Everyone knows that Thompson was nearly gone after 2006. Not saying we have another Thompson, but coaching is arguably the least rewarding gig around. Saints couldn't win one with Lyon making the most of St Kilda's list of stars and role players. Ditto Malthouse who lost back to back GFs to a dominant Lions teams with an average. Yet the Hawks and Essendon "pinched" one in 2008 and 1993 before going off the grid for a few seasons.

 

[incog43]

Seriously, Pagan had a list of Garbage, any quality left soon retired, including Ratten.

Heres a thought, I wonder what Pagan could have done with this list.

 

[Blue Flame]

Pagan's paddock with Walker on the 50 and Betts and Garlett nearby would be deadly, ironically.
Bomb it long to X would still fail, as X isn't as good as Fevola (or Carey) were.
Player development under Pagan was, at times.... unusual

 

[Madblue]

Interesting concept. If we couldn't win a flag with Malthouse as coach it says our playing list isn't good enough. If we don't win a flag with Ratten as coach, it is because he is a lousy coach.

Can anyone tell me why the 'great' Mick Malthouse is no longer coaching Collingwood? If he is not considered good enough to coach them, why should we want him? Perhaps we should be going after Nathan Buckley.

The reason why Malthouse isn't at Collingwood is because Eddie didn't want to lose Bucks to any other club and if that meant getting rid of Malthouse so be it ! I thought this was comman knowledge ?

 

[thylacine60]

The reason why Malthouse isn't at Collingwood is because Eddie didn't want to lose Bucks to any other club and if that meant getting rid of Malthouse so be it ! I thought this was comman knowledge ?

No. Only you know that.

 

[The Coach]

Hmm... Wasn't Neptune the corresponding Roman watery deity. Poseidon was Greek I thought (may be wrong).
I am not inclined to watch what people say, but I do see it both ways. Murphy became elite under Ratten, Yarran and Henderson became amazing backmen. Laidler and Duigan slotted in perfectly. Other than this year, which has been cruelled by injuries, we went from strength to strength.
There are, however, some problems, some of which are fairly big. Some players are not performing to expectation, for whatever reason. As a supporter who watches games on the TV in China, I have no way of knowing what the reason is.

It is also true that we have no way of knowing whether a player like Murph was going to develop regardless of who coached him etc etc. We need more twins drafted and seperated
This argument is not unlike why I rarely give taggers a vote ie unless they have played well themselves, as you cannot be sure whether the tagged was down because he was crook etc. (sometimes it is blatantly obvious)

We have no way of knowing whether Ratts or Browne or simply Hendo has been responsible for Hendo (insiders might know)

My problem with your post is with the rest of the list - Yarran (soft as butter at this stage - when he gets older he may be more than a fast seagull) Laidler and Duigan slotted in immediately - the fitness coach would have spent more time with them than Ratts when we quickly found out they were back 6 players every week (if not injured)

Despite picking a couple of softies amongst them, we had to improve during Ratts time as we found ourselves in a position to draft more skillfull players

 

[mediumsizered]

The reason why Malthouse isn't at Collingwood is because Eddie didn't want to lose Bucks to any other club and if that meant getting rid of Malthouse so be it ! I thought this was comman knowledge ?

So what you are saying is that McGuire was prepared to move on the better coach for the sake of not losing an untried coach. I know McGuire failed miserably as CEO of Channel 9, but he seems to have made a reasonable fist of his Collingwood gig, yet apparently he was prepared to give Buckley the coaching gig over a coach who had already taken Collingwood to 2 GFs as well as multiple finals series. Hmmm, either McGuire highly rated Buckley, perhaps thought Malthouse was running out of ideas or he was prepared to risk future success out of some kind of unhealthy obsession with Buckley. Somehow I don't think it is the latter.

 

[timbertron]

No. Only you know that.

Pretty much why Malthouse was replaced. Eddie loves Bucks to bits.luckily he seems like a good coach... unlike his contemporary Voss

 

[The Coach]

So what you are saying is that McGuire was prepared to move on the better coach for the sake of not losing an untried coach. I know McGuire failed miserably as CEO of Channel 9, but he seems to have made a reasonable fist of his Collingwood gig, yet apparently he was prepared to give Buckley the coaching gig over a coach who had already taken Collingwood to 2 GFs as well as multiple finals series. Hmmm, either McGuire highly rated Buckley, perhaps thought Malthouse was running out of ideas or he was prepared to risk future success out of some kind of unhealthy obsession with Buckley. Somehow I don't think it is the latter.

Aren't you guys forgetting that Eddie wanted to have his cake and yet eat it too - remember he thought he had stitched up the perfect way to have both of them

 

[Stig O'Hara]

Not trying to be a smarty, but how many current coaches were Malthouse or Thomspon's assistants? They'd make up half the teams wouldn't they?

 

[BROWN20]

So what you are saying is that McGuire was prepared to move on the better coach for the sake of not losing an untried coach. I know McGuire failed miserably as CEO of Channel 9, but he seems to have made a reasonable fist of his Collingwood gig, yet apparently he was prepared to give Buckley the coaching gig over a coach who had already taken Collingwood to 2 GFs as well as multiple finals series. Hmmm, either McGuire highly rated Buckley, perhaps thought Malthouse was running out of ideas or he was prepared to risk future success out of some kind of unhealthy obsession with Buckley. Somehow I don't think it is the latter.

You are clearly forgetting that the decision was made approx 3 years ago before Malthouse took the Magpies to the next level, some people on this board making the comparision to Pagan is just crazy, Malthouse has been very successful at 3 clubs, not sure that age is a issue .
The Carlton list was a complete rabble when Pagan took over and combined with losing draft picks it would not have really mattered who was coach, the situation is very different today, we have the foundation of a very good side, but really just need address some gaps another mid & key forward and have a coaching panel capable of taking this team to the next level which is clearly not happening.

 

[multigrain]

So what you are saying is that McGuire was prepared to move on the better coach for the sake of not losing an untried coach. I know McGuire failed miserably as CEO of Channel 9, but he seems to have made a reasonable fist of his Collingwood gig, yet apparently he was prepared to give Buckley the coaching gig over a coach who had already taken Collingwood to 2 GFs as well as multiple finals series. Hmmm, either McGuire highly rated Buckley, perhaps thought Malthouse was running out of ideas or he was prepared to risk future success out of some kind of unhealthy obsession with Buckley. Somehow I don't think it is the latter.

Lets be honest. North Melbourne were looking to pick up Nathan Buckley as coach in late 09. Eddie reacted by creating the succession plan to keep Buckley from taking that job. There would have been other offers made post 09 anyway. If he thought Malthouse was out of ideas he was wrong. Malthouse made 2 straight grand finals in 10, 11. That's fact. There's no doubt the man is a good coach. It would still be a damn risky appointment though.

 

[The Flying Doormat]

Dude, to put Malthouse in would be the way the public service does things - a knee jerk reaction to a short period of disappointment with no audit or detailed thought of why the Blues aren't in the position they were last year, with no thought of how other clubs are doing things & why that may have put us in a less competitive position.

If you were running a business & Rattan was coach, then we've had 5 years of growth. At the moment it's not happening how we want, but the sky ain't falling in and we could pick up. Smart businesses wouldn't shoot the coach after one disappointing financial quarter or year. Also, a smart business would almost definitely not put someone in who won only one premiership in 12 years at Collingwood which has great administration off the field (eddie's done a great job). They'd see what suits their business best, then do a few interviews, etc

Never run a business on knee-jerk reaction & perception, it'll fail, unless you're a rich private school kid whose daddy gives you all the cash you want to keep it running (which actually hides the failure doesn't address it), or unless you're a hot babe with a sugar daddy.

Am more than happy to have a professional audit of the club at the year's end, evaluating Carlton versus the top clubs on player list, coaching, off-field administration. Then deciding what needs to be done.

You Sir obviously do not work in the Public Service. I can assure you that in a Public Service scenario, Ratten would be congratulated for not finishing bottom and wads of money would be spent reviewing his successful strategy so that it could be implemented across departments. Consultants would be engaged to see where the process could be improved and a white paper produced in five years time would tell us why he ultimately failed to deliver.
The benchmark for performance, productivity, outcomes, value for money and any other measure you wish to use is WAY HIGHER in the private sector. Football clubs are unique in that emotion plays such part in the decision making process.
The private sector is not shackled byzantine work practices or nebulous references to altruistic principles - its about success and profit. If you had Marius Kloppers, Gina Rinehardt, Alan Joyce and Co running the show there is little chance Ratten would survive is he fails to deliver on this year's target ie a top four finish. People seem to have short memories; Ratten's extension was not a certain thing last year based on how the team was travelling then. As an employer you do not engage individuals on $500,000 a year (or whatever a coach receives), give them all the support required to achieve an outcome, engage in a five year plan then applaud them for getting mediocre results and going backwards.
A good comparison is Kenny Dalgleish at Liverpool. The hard nosed owners of this most illustrious of sporting organizations kneecapped a favourite son (that had already achieved success at the highest level as manager previously) after only 12 months. And that was after winning one cup missing out on another and finishing mid table in his first year.
I'm not here to bash Ratten but no-one should be surprised if Carlton miss the 8 and he gets the chop. That's the norm in the private sector.