Mega Thread Brett Ratten

[The Flying Doormat]

W

Wasn't Caligula a Roman Emperor and Poseidon some sort of watery deity?

A Greek one at that

 

[hawkeyehogan]

Seriously, Pagan had a list of Garbage, any quality left soon retired, including Ratten.

Heres a thought, I wonder what Pagan could have done with this list.

Pagan was not that bad, he basically had one of the weakest team in the last 40 years. I seen Carlton squad it was one of the weakest I have seen in my days following football. I also read there was all this bickering going on, coaches not coaching together. They had offices away from each other, Pagan had no team to pick from basically. I reckon he would have loved coaching Carlton today.

 

[Stig O'Hara]

Worst coach ever. Sakc Ratten.

and give him a beating.

 

[Big Red is back]

Lol Mick wouldn't be any good.

Let's recap 10 Years at eagles 10 finals series , 2 flags and a runner up. Took over in 1990 and by 91 they made gf.

Took over an amazing rabble in 2000 and not long thereafter had them in two gfs. If you look at the pies teams in those years they were very average yet somehow he delivered.

Ratten is pathetic, our structures and game plan flaws do not allow us to cover injuries in the same way other sides do.

 

[Malifice]

Lol Mick wouldn't be any good.

Let's recap 10 Years at eagles 10 finals series , 2 flags and a runner up. Took over in 1990 and by 91 they made gf.

Took over an amazing rabble in 2000 and not long thereafter had them in two gfs. If you look at the pies teams in those years they were very average yet somehow he delivered.

Ratten is pathetic, our structures and game plan flaws do not allow us to cover injuries in the same way other sides do.

Why do I get the feelng you dont rate Ratten?

Its literally all you ever post about.

 

[Back at ya]

The Ceiling has been reached for Brett Ratte - has been good for the club.
Now time for the club to take in new direction.

Hope rumour from Club Powerbrokers is Paul Roos is the target.

If not Roos - perhaps Scott Burns could be an option.?

 

[40yearBLUE]

If you had Marius Kloppers, Gina Rinehardt, Alan Joyce and Co running the show there is little chance Ratten would survive is he fails to deliver on this year's target ie a top four finish.

Bwa ha ha. Alan Joyce? The market has told you what they think of Alan Joyce. Have you seen the Qantas share price lately? And Gina? Please. She actively works the inheritance, the other family in the Hancock/Wright partnership do not and they are almost as wealthy. All they had to do is wait (you remember wait, thats what the Geelong board did when it looked like the Bomber plan was faltering) and then count the royalties from the deals Lang and Peter did. Perhaps Kloppers is your get out bet. Cant say.

And we had a captain of industry run the show for 20 years. Some would say it didnt turn out too well for us......

 

[mediumsizered]

Lol Mick wouldn't be any good.

Let's recap 10 Years at eagles 10 finals series , 2 flags and a runner up. Took over in 1990 and by 91 they made gf.

Took over an amazing rabble in 2000 and not long thereafter had them in two gfs. If you look at the pies teams in those years they were very average yet somehow he delivered.

And then they bottomed out finishing 13th & 15th. How would you have coped with that? There were plenty of Collingwood supporters ready to be done with Malthouse then. Once again, as was the case for the Cats & more recently the Eagles, it is a bloody good thing that club administrations don't listen to the hysterical rantings from the media or a minority of club members.

Fortunately football clubs aren't run like political parties, with an eye to the popularity, or otherwise, of their leaders.

 

[40yearBLUE]

I think it fair to say I am firmly in the pro Ratts section. And at the danger of some seeing this post as a weakening of my position I am not pro Ratts at all. Players come and go, so do coaches. I am pro club. Pro the club doing well, getting the best outcomes. Sacking Ratts now is not the answer. And whilst I am on it, sacking Ratts at anytime also not the answer, by all means, dont give him another extension if the prevailing wisdom is (and by prevailing wisdom I dont mean whiners and agitators) he is not the best option going forward, or if at some point mid season next year the decision is made not to renew and both parties agree to part early then fine, its about time it was understood that not renewing a contract is not the same as being sacked. I am not a fan of entering into contracts and not honoring them. 2 years was wise. Its long enough to give him every chance and not have the possibility of an aberrant season derail him but not so long that breaking the contract becomes the only option. And on this last point, all companies, boards and sporting clubs factor in external uncontrollables.

Someone just posted that big companies dont have patience for lack of results. That may be true, but what they also do is understand the total market they operate in. Alan Joyce is not under immediate threat because the Qantas share price fell to its lowest level ever a week ago is he? Companies predict growth in the same way the club and Ratts predicted top 4. Companies issue profit downgrades and explain why to the market. Often times, whilst some day traders sell, the institutional investors understand the reasons why and hold the stock. Do the boards of such companies immediately sack the CEO or chairman or members of the board, especially those that presided of previous growth?

No and the reason is that there are uncontrollable external factors such as the global recession, Boeing delays in delivering the Dreamliner and problems with the A380 etc. If or when it is clear that Joyce, whilst adequate at Jetstar, cannot handle the top job then the board will act or the market will force it to.

And it will be the same at the club. One run of bad games on the back of a bad luck run of injuries mid season is not an indication that the plan is wrong. If and when that becomes apparent, then I am all for the club acting. Until then I hope and expect they have the patience and courage to stay the course set, as other clubs have proven in the last decade that that is the path to success, not continually altering course in the hope of finding it.

 

[BROWN20]

And then they bottomed out finishing 13th & 15th. How would you have coped with that? There were plenty of Collingwood supporters ready to be done with Malthouse then. Once again, as was the case for the Cats & more recently the Eagles, it is a bloody good thing that club administrations don't listen to the hysterical rantings from the media or a minority of club members.

Fortunately football clubs aren't run like political parties, with an eye to the popularity, or otherwise, of their leaders.

So basically what you are saying is that we should accept the season as it is, and not to at least go through the process of reviewing all our key areas, coaching, fitness staff, recruiting etc and make some informed decisions and if that means Ratten needs to be moved on so be it.

The facts are if we fail to win one of our next two, it is going to be very difficult to make finals, and the improvement in the list has levelled off, players like Gibbs/Kruezer/Yarran/Lucas etc have failed t take their performances to a higher level, we should be trying to understand why, all are capable of doing this but it has failed to occure thus this is the main reason why have not improved, and not blaming injuries and other sides have covered for injuries much better than us eg Pies with Beams/Sidebottom taking their game to the next level.

 

[Krooooze]

I am not one of those people who will attribute all the blame to Rats for our current slump. The players have been horrible with their endeavour, but in saying that it's the coach's job to get the best out of his players, and I am not sure Rats is capable of that when the going gets tough.

I think it's pretty obvious we won't be improving on last year, we have lost too many games we would have marked down as W's and there's still Haw and Coll to come.

I just think we would be crazy not to pursue Malthouse. A proven, premiership coach with a talented list at his disposal. Sounds like a perfect match. I just don't know if Rats changes things up enough to be able to turn things around during games when the heat is on.

Rats still has the rest of the year to turn things around. If we don't make finals, his time is surely up. If we make the finals and don't get past week 1, I would think he's a goner. If we happened to get past week 1 and get bundled out in week 2, then they may strongly consider allowing him to serve out his contract.

So many ifs, but at the moment, I think things are looking pretty grim for Rats. Long way to go still if he is to turn things around and prove us wrong.

 

[The Flying Doormat]

Bwa ha ha. Alan Joyce? The market has told you what they think of Alan Joyce. Have you seen the Qantas share price lately? And Gina? Please. She actively works the inheritance, the other family in the Hancock/Wright partnership do not and they are almost as wealthy. All they had to do is wait (you remember wait, thats what the Geelong board did when it looked like the Bomber plan was faltering) and then count the royalties from the deals Lang and Peter did. Perhaps Kloppers is your get out bet. Cant say.

And we had a captain of industry run the show for 20 years. Some would say it didnt turn out too well for us......

Please, enough of the Geelong Thompson scenario - the exception to the rule. Yeah waiting is a good strategy, how many times has that worked out.
As for Gina and Co, believe me, I'm no fan of their operations. However if you think she managed to accumulate $50 billion by 'waiting' good luck to you, blessed are the meek for they shall inherit the earth and all that.
What I'm saying is that the private sector (compared to the Public Service) does not wait for things to happen, they have no qualms in taking big decisions when required. Qantas shares are stuffed but check out the value of any other carrier. Joyce took a huge risk by grounding a worldwide operation and made Australia look stupid internationally but his aim was to stop union industrial action, get to the independent arbitrator and seek a resolution. I can't support his actions but the Irishman succeeded in his aims.

 

[laminex]

Worst coach ever. Sakc Ratten.

and give him a beating.

agree a beating by all the town folk is what is needed.

grab ya pitch forks and lets go get the monster.

 

[mediumsizered]

So basically what you are saying is that we should accept the season as it is, and not to at least go through the process of reviewing all our key areas, coaching, fitness staff, recruiting etc and make some informed decisions and if that means Ratten needs to be moved on so be it.

The facts are if we fail to win one of our next two, it is going to be very difficult to make finals, and the improvement in the list has levelled off, players like Gibbs/Kruezer/Yarran/Lucas etc have failed t take their performances to a higher level, we should be trying to understand why, all are capable of doing this but it has failed to occure thus this is the main reason why have not improved, and not blaming injuries and other sides have covered for injuries much better than us eg Pies with Beams/Sidebottom taking their game to the next level.

As I have previously posted, I am all for a review of the club at the end of this season, but that review must be all encompassing, which means the players should come under the microscope as well, because players still make coaches, not the other way around (when Melbourne beat Essendon 2 weeks ago, was that because suddenly Neeld found the key to winning, or was it because the players had a real dip?)

 

[40yearBLUE]

Please, enough of the Geelong Thompson scenario - the exception to the rule. Yeah waiting is a good strategy, how many times has that worked out.
As for Gina and Co, believe me, I'm no fan of their operations. However if you think she managed to accumulate $50 billion by 'waiting' good luck to you, blessed are the meek for they shall inherit the earth and all that.
What I'm saying is that the private sector (compared to the Public Service) does not wait for things to happen, they have no qualms in taking big decisions when required. Qantas shares are stuffed but check out the value of any other carrier. Joyce took a huge risk by grounding a worldwide operation and made Australia look stupid internationally but his aim was to stop union industrial action, get to the independent arbitrator and seek a resolution. I can't support his actions but the Irishman succeeded in his aims.

First the Geelong analogy is not an exception to the rule, it is the rule. Of the last 4 premiers and top 4 likely asprirants this year, ALL have hung on to a coach that has taken his team down the ladder before progressing back up again. Geelong is well documented but to remind you, they fell out of the 8 (actually finished 10th behind Richmond in 2006) in Thomspons 6th season as coach (might have been 7th, hardly effects the argument), Malthouse took the team to 2 grand finals, lost both then finished bottom 4, Worsfold another who has taken his team to the bottom before bringing them back up, he is different to the other 2 in that he had a flag under his belt with the team in question before taking them down the ladder, but nevertheless, a weak board would have panicked and sacked him. Scott took them to a flag in his first year, the recipient of a fantastic list, but may not even make the top 4 this year, do you think the Cats will then sack him?

Now the true exceptions (well not exceptions, the other side of the rule, teams that sack coaches are losers), Harvey at Freo, took the side to finals then was sacked before they tasted ultimate success, Melbourne, Richmond, Bulldogs and had Lyon not jumped there is no guarantee the Saints would not have sacked him anyway after all he left because they had not renegotiated his contract despite making the GF the year before and took the Freo offer because of that lack of faith in getting another contract and then calling them too late when they tried to counter. Of the teams that have had success and sacked a coach such as Port Adelaide and Adelaide, how has that worked out for them so far? Its fair that Adelaide are playing OK football but no guarantee.

So what were you saying about exceptions. Sometimes we fit the facts to our preconceptions. But if you are dispassionate about it, the sides that sack coaches are not the successful ones.

And if you think Gina has made all that money then it is you that does not understand where the vast bulk of Hancock prospecting earns its money. It is from royalties contracted in the 60's for mining leases that Rio Tinto started mining in the 80's and 90's. Hardly any of it comes from new works that Gina has instigated. So yes, waiting is exactly what created the wealth. Good luck to you.

And conciliatory employers always get much better long term labor negotiations and investor relations that combative ones. So did he get exactly what he wanted? Did he?

 

[blue gunslinger]

public sector private sector???
Sport is a pastime

 

[The Flying Doormat]

First the Geelong analogy is not an exception to the rule, it is the rule. Of the last 4 premiers and top 4 likely asprirants this year, ALL have hung on to a coach that has taken his team down the ladder before progressing back up again. Geelong is well documented but to remind you, they fell out of the 8 (actually finished 10th behind Richmond in 2006) in Thomspons 6th season as coach (might have been 7th, hardly effects the argument), Malthouse took the team to 2 grand finals, lost both then finished bottom 4, Worsfold another who has taken his team to the bottom before bringing them back up, he is different to the other 2 in that he had a flag under his belt with the team in question before taking them down the ladder, but nevertheless, a weak board would have panicked and sacked him. Scott took them to a flag in his first year, the recipient of a fantastic list, but may not even make the top 4 this year, do you think the Cats will then sack him?

Now the true exceptions (well not exceptions, the other side of the rule, teams that sack coaches are losers), Harvey at Freo, took the side to finals then was sacked before they tasted ultimate success, Melbourne, Richmond, Bulldogs and had Lyon not jumped there is no guarantee the Saints would not have sacked him anyway after all he left because they had not renegotiated his contract despite making the GF the year before and took the Freo offer because of that lack of faith in getting another contract and then calling them too late when they tried to counter. Of the teams that have had success and sacked a coach such as Port Adelaide and Adelaide, how has that worked out for them so far? Its fair that Adelaide are playing OK football but no guarantee.

So what were you saying about exceptions. Sometimes we fit the facts to our preconceptions. But if you are dispassionate about it, the sides that sack coaches are not the successful ones.

And if you think Gina has made all that money then it is you that does not understand where the vast bulk of Hancock prospecting earns its money. It is from royalties contracted in the 60's for mining leases that Rio Tinto started mining in the 80's and 90's. Hardly any of it comes from new works that Gina has instigated. So yes, waiting is exactly what created the wealth. Good luck to you.

And conciliatory employers always get much better long term labor negotiations and investor relations that combative ones. So did he get exactly what he wanted? Did he?

I think in my original comments, re Private Sector v the Public Service where all this debate began, I was alluding to the Private Sector not having a have the kneejerk reaction to a bad situation as another poster stated. There are enough examples of the private sector being way ahead on this count and through all the debate I haven't proposed sacking Ratten. As always I like to explore all the arguments and cannot believe that anyone would be surprised if Ratts was sacked. Upset yes, but surely it wouldn't be a unique event. As for the Malthouse comparison, yeah well he did have runs on the board at the Eagles and early on at the Pies so I can't see Ratten coming close to that (not at present anyway).
Sure the Hancocks have been lucky; so has Clive Palmer being a beneficiary of mining lease interests. But it's a stretch to say they have sat back and waited for it all to happen.
Anyway, nice locking horns.

 

[40yearBLUE]

I think in my original comments, re Private Sector v the Public Service where all this debate began, I was alluding to the Private Sector not having a have the kneejerk reaction to a bad situation as another poster stated. There are enough examples of the private sector being way ahead on this count and through all the debate I haven't proposed sacking Ratten. As always I like to explore all the arguments and cannot believe that anyone would be surprised if Ratts was sacked. Upset yes, but surely it wouldn't be a unique event. As for the Malthouse comparison, yeah well he did have runs on the board at the Eagles and early on at the Pies so I can't see Ratten coming close to that (not at present anyway).
Sure the Hancocks have been lucky; so has Clive Palmer being a beneficiary of mining lease interests. But it's a stretch to say they have sat back and waited for it all to happen.
Anyway, nice locking horns.

I would be very surprised. Why? Because its not the way successful outfits operate in the current market. Successful teams now, and I have demonstrated it is not an exception but the rule, develop lists and understand that the cycle will take between 5 and 8 years to pay dividends. Patience is a key element in the process. Key.

Sacking is the way clubs like Carlton used to operate in the old paradigm of buying the best players around the country then paying a coach to deliver a flag with them. We were very slow to understand the methods required in the modern socialist level playing field the league is trying to create. So much so we cheated because we did not know how to participate properly. Since the mid 90's the effect of the draft and the salary cap is that teams must be built now, not bought. And coaches that develop players are valued and teams that are patient with such systems are rewarded.

Yes I would be very surprised if we lose our patience and join the ranks of the rabble teams like Richmond and Melbourne and rotate through coaches in never ending rebuilding phases and hope one of them happens to jag one.

And regarding the wealth and patience. I couldnt help be reminded of the long forgotten "Cattle King" Sir Sidney Kidman (yes great grandfather or great Uncle of Nicole, anyway not sure but yes related) who was once one of Australia's richest men (but the wealth is long gone), and in his day owned the most Australian land. He was a founding investor in a tiny mining start up (acquiring his share for 10 bullocks valued at the time at 40 pounds), but lost his patience and sold his share for a pittance (150 pounds)......that company was Broken Hill Propriety company. Had he held onto his share (1/14 of the entire company), current value it would have dwarfed not only his pastoral wealth but Gina Rineharts. Just sayin.

 

[Murphkreuzmitch]

The answer to success is not to sack the coach. That is just the boards way of saving face when the shit hits the fan. The fact that the club is struggling in a patch at the moment could well be attributed to the coach, the issue with this is that as an organisation what structures are in place to prevent the coach from failing the team, what is the fallback plan. To sack the coach will see us worse off than we are now for the instability it will cause.

Ratten although surrounded by some good assistants is not managed by a football department and is left to his own devices, this is the problem. Who outside of the coaching group is responsible for ensuring that the function is performed cohesively and that all staff are performing and finding weaknesses and providing solutions, my guess is that no one at Carlton does this on a fixed basis and when problems occur the club calls for a quick fix i.e sack the coach. (Emotional, uneducated response)

Until the correct structure is in place above the coaching panel, it wont matter who the coach is they will have a hard time succeeding.

 

[1981]

May have some good oil tomorrow but more likely not
Will post here if it is oil

 

[thylacine60]

How am I going to sleep now...

 

[1981]

Look I don't know there's many great coaches
There are coaches who are good at match day tactics and can make good changes during games and to be honest i am not sure who is best at this, and then there are coaches who have innovated with game changing game plans and it's these coaches I rate the highest and these are Clarkson, Roos and Lyon

 

[1981]

How am I going to sleep now...

Sorry that did look stupid once posted
Not trying attention seek
My wife works with people who know one of our most senior players and she partly overheard them talking about Roos last week, she didn't get the full jist but felt it was a secretive conversation so she is going to ask tomorrow if there's anything to it
Probably nothing but take my word she has access to right to top of the tree player wise at the club so small chance it is significant

 

[40yearBLUE]

The answer to success is not to sack the coach. That is just the boards way of saving face when the shit hits the fan. The fact that the club is struggling in a patch at the moment could well be attributed to the coach, the issue with this is that as an organisation what structures are in place to prevent the coach from failing the team, what is the fallback plan. To sack the coach will see us worse off than we are now for the instability it will cause.

Ratten although surrounded by some good assistants is not managed by a football department and is left to his own devices, this is the problem. Who outside of the coaching group is responsible for ensuring that the function is performed cohesively and that all staff are performing and finding weaknesses and providing solutions, my guess is that no one at Carlton does this on a fixed basis and when problems occur the club calls for a quick fix i.e sack the coach. (Emotional, uneducated response)

Until the correct structure is in place above the coaching panel, it wont matter who the coach is they will have a hard time succeeding.

Actually THIS.

If we are going to go out poaching, dont bother with Malthouse, or Roos, or Matthews or even Thompson. Get Balme or someone of his ilk as director of coaching. Otherwise dont bother, the coach we have is as good as any out there.

Structures regardless of personnel are what we require.

I quite like this historical quote from the Royal Navy, it sums up the situation perfectly.

"Everything seemed as if by enchantment to prosper under his direction but it is the effect of system not of chance". Admiral Cornwallis when describing Horatio Nelson but also that of the systems in place in the Admiralty at the time.

 

[thylacine60]

Sorry that did look stupid once posted
Not trying attention seek
My wife works with people who know one of our most senior players and she partly overheard them talking about Roos last week, she didn't get the full jist but felt it was a secretive conversation so she is going to ask tomorrow if there's anything to it
Probably nothing but take my word she has access to right to top of the tree player wise at the club so small chance it is significant

Don't have to leave a post online if you don't want to.