Mega Thread Brett Ratten

[JustaBattler]

Get to finals and anything can happen. Beat Hawthorn or Collingwood(again) and Rattss becomes a genius.

you cant beat top teams with our injury list.

And I don't for one minute subscribe to Collingwood injury list OR WC as being similar. Beams and Sidebottom are GF players for Collingwood a testament to their depth. WC? Really? lets see how they go without their umps on MCG in finals.

Our best 22 on the paddock and fit - I fancy our chances against any other Club.

I fee sorry for Ratten - he is one or two more developed bigger bodied mids and a decent tall away from success. He is coping with a bigger injury list than Harvey at Freemantle last year.

 

[mediumsizered]

You believe that Sticks, Swan and co would 100% guarantee that Ratts will be coach next year and if he is not it will be because they wanted to appease sooks

I think you know the answer to that. What I am getting at is there is a vocal minority screaming "sack the coach", "sack the coach" demonstrating a 'Richmond mentality', when some of these people were also the ones wanting Pagan sacked. They got their wish, but now they want to sack another coach. Do you just keep sacking coaches or do you back yourself in (it is no coincidence that those clubs who have experienced varying levels of success over the last 5+ years, are those clubs who didn't listen to the media/rabid supporters when their club experienced backward steps, but instead stuck by their coach)?

This whole concept that Malthouse or Roos have to be better for our club is based on nothing more but supposition. The anti-Ratts camp have ranted about the lack of due diligence when Ratten was appointed coach, but then want to go down the same road by sacking Ratten & appointing Malthouse/Roos. Are there degrees of due diligence?

If by the season end our club has not turned things back around & got back to where we were after Round 3 in performance, with most/all of our injured players back, then I am all for a full review of the Football Department, including every player on our list, at the end of the year. Any suggestion that Ratts should be sacked now, or even sacked at the end of the season without a proper review taking place would just be symbolic of a club who wants to keep playing catch-up, much like Richmond have done over the last 30 years.

 

[Omega Blue]

even if we don't make the eight theres no way ratts should be sacked.
need to keep the faith and maintain consistency, keep the playing group together with maybe one or two additions. there have been countless examples of teams having a down year before they reach for premiership glory in the following years.
if anything it'll make ratts and the boys more hungry.

 

[Big Red is back]

Watermark is preliminary final so let's wait and see. Pies and eagles have more injuries and they look on target, so let's see how this unfolds.

What we know is with injuries his game plan fails, i suspect by next game 20 of our best 22 will be ready to take on the hawks which should ensure our talent can cover atleast in part the worst game structure in the afl.

I expect we will beat the hawks,which adds further weight to how reliant we are on our best players due to our failing game structure.

I am expecting us to win 13 games by seasons end and finish 8th. After that anything is possible, miss the finals and it's fair to say we have gone backwards over past four years.

 

[Claypigeon]

Watermark is preliminary final so let's wait and see. Pies and eagles have more injuries and they look on target, so let's see how this unfolds.

What we know is with injuries his game plan fails, i suspect by next game 20 of our best 22 will be ready to take on the hawks which should ensure our talent can cover atleast in part the worst game structure in the afl.

I expect we will beat the hawks,which adds further weight to how reliant we are on our best players due to our failing game structure.

I am expecting us to win 13 games by seasons end and finish 8th. After that anything is possible, miss the finals and it's fair to say we have gone backwards over past four years.

You are a broken record, the injuries at Collingwood and WEagles are not the equivilant of ours (Although Collingwood is close), our whole spine and their support cast has been injured and most of their depth too. .. Just because most (stilll missing a KPF option) are back playing doesn't discount that the injuries cause them to be starting from a long way back. .. I think you should take the blinkers off and actually take a non-biased look at reality. ..

Not saying we haven't under performed, particularly against Saint, Adelaide and Port but I'm not being unrealistic about the affect of injuries. ..

 

[Big Sim]

Get to finals and anything can happen. Beat Hawthorn or Collingwood(again) and Rattss becomes a genius.

you cant beat top teams with our injury list.

And I don't for one minute subscribe to Collingwood injury list OR WC as being similar. Beams and Sidebottom are GF players for Collingwood a testament to their depth. WC? Really? lets see how they go without their umps on MCG in finals.

Our best 22 on the paddock and fit - I fancy our chances against any other Club.

I fee sorry for Ratten - he is one or two more developed bigger bodied mids and a decent tall away from success. He is coping with a bigger injury list than Harvey at Freemantle last year.

Good post. We have definitely suffered more than any other club this year.

What none of the media commentators have EVER touched on is the extent of our injury list. Its always some grudging acknowledgement that we are missing key players such as Murphy, Carrots and Waite, but then they wack us with "but West Coast, Collingwood and Essendon have all had injuries too." But our second tier players have also been devastated by injury, leaving us few options to experiment with or to replace out of form players with. This is the worst hand a coach can be dealt and I take my hat off to Ratten for the composure he has shown throughout what can only be described as an ordeal.

Having said that, the poor form of players we all hoped were best 22 material such as JR, Emu and especially Lucas has compounded the issue enormously. Gibbs, Kruezer and Judd have all been well below what we expect of them too, which has further hurt us.

Could Ratten and the coaching panel have done better? Probably, but not enough to have prevented our slide. Problem is mainly with our players on the field and the lack of choices to put there.

Even so, if we don't make the eight Ratten will be lucky to survive. Like many others I expect the final game vs Saints to be effectively an elimination final. God willing we will be at full strength and if we can't beat them there is something wrong.

WC? Really? lets see how they go without their umps on MCG in finals.

Very true. They are nowhere near as good as they are cracked up to be and neither are the Crows.

 

[BROWN20]

Good post. We have definitely suffered more than any other club this year.

What none of the media commentators have EVER touched on is the extent of our injury list. Its always some grudging acknowledgement that we are missing key players such as Murphy, Carrots and Waite, but then they wack us with "but West Coast, Collingwood and Essendon have all had injuries too." But our second tier players have also been devastated by injury, leaving us few options to experiment with or to replace out of form players with. This is the worst hand a coach can be dealt and I take my hat off to Ratten for the composure he has shown throughout what can only be described as an ordeal.

Having said that, the poor form of players we all hoped were best 22 material such as JR, Emu and especially Lucas has compounded the issue enormously. Gibbs, Kruezer and Judd have all been well below what we expect of them too, which has further hurt us.

Could Ratten and the coaching panel have done better? Probably, but not enough to have prevented our slide. Problem is mainly with our players on the field and the lack of choices to put there.

Even so, if we don't make the eight Ratten will be lucky to survive. Like many others I expect the final game vs Saints to be effectively an elimination final. God willing we will be at full strength and if we can't beat them there is something wrong.



Very true. They are nowhere near as good as they are cracked up to be and neither are the Crows.

The teams we had on the field against Bombers/Saints/Adelaide were all quite solid, and we had a 10 goal loss against a bottom 4 side Port Adelaide, whilst injuries have played a role, some supporters using this as the major reason are deluding themselves, the more valid reasons are the decline in form of players like Gibbs,Gartlett,Kruezer,Judd,Yarran and the total lack of forward structure that we have, also the lack of depth of talent we thought we had.

We will have close to a full side against Hawks & Pies with exception of Murphy, l am discounting Waite because l no longer believe we can rely upon him any longer moving forward, these games will be a real indicator, l suspect we still have a far degree of list improvement to be a geninue top 4 side.

 

[40yearBLUE]

The teams we had on the field against Bombers/Saints/Adelaide were all quite solid, and we had a 10 goal loss against a bottom 4 side Port Adelaide, whilst injuries have played a role, some supporters using this as the major reason are deluding themselves, the more valid reasons are the decline in form of players like Gibbs,Gartlett,Kruezer,Judd,Yarran and the total lack of forward structure that we have, also the lack of depth of talent we thought we had.

We will have close to a full side against Hawks & Pies with exception of Murphy, l am discounting Waite because l no longer believe we can rely upon him any longer moving forward, these games will be a real indicator, l suspect we still have a far degree of list improvement to be a geninue top 4 side.

You are discounting a key player from your injury list because he has become too injured to be included?

And what you fail to understand or at least acknowledge in regarding the form of players you mention such as Gibbs, Garlett, Yarran and we can include Joseph who has been patchy but retained his spot etc is that if there is a significant injury list then the flexibility to drop players is severely hampered, so it can subconsciously effect their intensity through the sense of security the club not being in as solid a position to drop them conveys.

 

[Hus83]

The teams we had on the field against Bombers/Saints/Adelaide were all quite solid, and we had a 10 goal loss against a bottom 4 side Port Adelaide, whilst injuries have played a role, some supporters using this as the major reason are deluding themselves, the more valid reasons are the decline in form of players like Gibbs,Gartlett,Kruezer,Judd,Yarran and the total lack of forward structure that we have, also the lack of depth of talent we thought we had.

We will have close to a full side against Hawks & Pies with exception of Murphy, l am discounting Waite because l no longer believe we can rely upon him any longer moving forward, these games will be a real indicator, l suspect we still have a far degree of list improvement to be a geninue top 4 side.

GARTLETT, AGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH.

Where did the additional T come from. Did half the world hear his name differently at some point?

 

[BLUEALLTHRU]

You are discounting a key player from your injury list because he has become too injured to be included?

And what you fail to understand or at least acknowledge in regarding the form of players you mention such as Gibbs, Garlett, Yarran and we can include Joseph who has been patchy but retained his spot etc is that if there is a significant injury list then the flexibility to drop players is severely hampered, so it can subconsciously effect their intensity through the sense of security the club not being in as solid a position to drop them conveys.

^^^THIS Very true

When I started this thread we were 3-0 and now we are 6-6 so what has happened, I'll tell you what!!!

If you take around 8-10 players out of any teams top 18 I can guarantee you will have the same result.

Please stop with WE DON'T HAVE ANY DEPTH BULLSHIT!! Our 2nd tier players have had no influence due to injuries themselves.

There are some very negative bandwagon posters on this site and some true supporters who understand that it is a difficult year and we will get through it together.The club will win a premiership within 3 years and I will look out for all of these bandwagon supporters to come flooding back!!

For all of you true Carlton posters keep the resolve because we will ride out the storm and be bigger and stronger for it.

 

[BROWN20]

You are discounting a key player from your injury list because he has become too injured to be included?

And what you fail to understand or at least acknowledge in regarding the form of players you mention such as Gibbs, Garlett, Yarran and we can include Joseph who has been patchy but retained his spot etc is that if there is a significant injury list then the flexibility to drop players is severely hampered, so it can subconsciously effect their intensity through the sense of security the club not being in as solid a position to drop them conveys.

This group has 3 years in finals being beaten by a goal, surely that should be such a strong motivating force to improve individually and as a group, rather than taking the view oh we have injuries my spot is assured, you would hope that the playing group would be playing to their max capacity most of time, yes you can allow for the odd poor performance but this is not the case, Kane Lucas is a great example were there has been spots available for the taking and he has failed to elevate himself to the next level, this is exactly the reason we have been able to cover injuries, same with Gibbs great opportunity to take his game to the next level, this is exactly the reason we have not progressed.

 

[Madblue]

even if we don't make the eight theres no way ratts should be sacked.
need to keep the faith and maintain consistency, keep the playing group together with maybe one or two additions. there have been countless examples of teams having a down year before they reach for premiership glory in the following years.
if anything it'll make ratts and the boys more hungry.

Surely you can't be serious ?????

 

[The Toad]

I've just heard Ratten has been summoned before the board to explain the reasons for the earthquake the other day, and why he did nothing to prevent it.
Think he may be in some serious trouble over this.

 

[blue healer]

Good post. We have definitely suffered more than any other club this year.

What none of the media commentators have EVER touched on is the extent of our injury list. Its always some grudging acknowledgement that we are missing key players such as Murphy, Carrots and Waite, but then they wack us with "but West Coast, Collingwood and Essendon have all had injuries too." But our second tier players have also been devastated by injury, leaving us few options to experiment with or to replace out of form players with. This is the worst hand a coach can be dealt and I take my hat off to Ratten for the composure he has shown throughout what can only be described as an ordeal.

Having said that, the poor form of players we all hoped were best 22 material such as JR, Emu and especially Lucas has compounded the issue enormously. Gibbs, Kruezer and Judd have all been well below what we expect of them too, which has further hurt us.

Could Ratten and the coaching panel have done better? Probably, but not enough to have prevented our slide. Problem is mainly with our players on the field and the lack of choices to put there.

Who are those second tier players? The only one I think we really could call that on exposed form is Davies who I still have high hopes for and, if uninjured, would probably be getting regular games with our injury toll atm. The rest, for mine are unknown quantities.

The thing that must create angst in the minds of the coaching staff is the failure, as you mention, of Bower, Russell and Lucas. Fair to say most of us expected them to be pressing hard for a spot in our best 22. Their inability to break into a side with the spread of injuries we have presently is worrying to say the least. We wouldn't be discussing 2nd tier (or even 3rd tier) if they had delivered something like the performances that would reasonably be expected of them.

I don't know whether Ratten is the coach we hoped for or not but I do know that the form of some of our better players is affecting our results much more than the coach. This is the same coach who took a depleted side to Perth and got within a kick of a prelim.

 

[jackn]

even if we don't make the eight theres no way ratts should be sacked.
need to keep the faith and maintain consistency, keep the playing group together with maybe one or two additions. there have been countless examples of teams having a down year before they reach for premiership glory in the following years.
if anything it'll make ratts and the boys more hungry.

I'm not sure what I want regarding ratts yet and won't be until season's end, but how many events can we have making the boys more hungry before they "eat". The brisbane and sydney finals both increased the players hunger for finals success and so did getting so close to a prelim last year. Add this year and that's four years of making ratts and the boys more hungry. They should be ravenous by now, unfortunately during many games they've looked anything but.

 

[jj1978]

Lets not be in denial here... fact is if Ratten gets us to the finals and we win a final or two, the board would have to agree with consideration to our injury list that he's done a good job and will be allowed to serve his final year of his contract next year.

He fails to make finals - lets not delude ourselves... he's most likely gone... whether he is a good coach or not, like the masses most feel he's done his job to get the team spirit back, but he may not be the most capable out there to get us beyond 5-8th.

To me it's simple.. if the board has a niggle in the back of their mind whether he's the right man.. he should be asked to step-down (hopefully will swallow his pride and be a senior assistant)... Last year the board clearly had a niggle as he basically had to win a final to appease them and even then they still seemed a little hesitant when they finally made the call.

I have no grudge with Ratten, and to be honest I feel he's served his purpose and I thank him, he was the right man for our previous 5 years... moving forward we need a stronger, more aggressive coach, who not only can bring himself down to the level of the players, but also bring the fear of god into them too.

I would consider Choco Williams, Malthouse, Roos (with a better gameplan), Blight, Matthews, Ayers at this point as being good candidates.

 

[Beer n Skittles]

Who are those second tier players? The only one I think we really could call that on exposed form is Davies who I still have high hopes for and, if uninjured, would probably be getting regular games with our injury toll atm. The rest, for mine are unknown quantities.

The thing that must create angst in the minds of the coaching staff is the failure, as you mention, of Bower, Russell and Lucas. Fair to say most of us expected them to be pressing hard for a spot in our best 22. Their inability to break into a side with the spread of injuries we have presently is worrying to say the least. We wouldn't be discussing 2nd tier (or even 3rd tier) if they had delivered something like the performances that would reasonably be expected of them.

I don't know whether Ratten is the coach we hoped for or not but I do know that the form of some of our better players is affecting our results much more than the coach. This is the same coach who took a depleted side to Perth and got within a kick of a prelim.

The injured second tier players haven't been able to show form because they've been injured.
If you huff and type you're a bloody idiot

 

[KennyHunter9]

I'm still backing Ratts. He's improved the team every year - not just in terms of ladder position but in terms of speed, skill, aggression etc. We can make a better judgment on whether we've gone back / sideways on (1) ladder position (2) the types of characteristics the team needs to play with to have ultimate success. Sellers put it well (to paraphrase): "he's improved the team every year and he needs to do it again, otherwise he's in trouble. I've certainly not given up on winning a flag this year. Our best is good enough, and this could be the year that it's won from the bottom half of the 8.

With that positivity out the way, let me also add that there are, most likely, better coaches out there:

Roos: young, successful, refreshed, great communicator, good strategist, loves pressure footy.

Thompson: not sure why no one is talking about him as a senior coach. Looks refreshed. Would be a great time to leave the Dons as they appear to have turned things around (but he's not going to be premiership coach there).

 

[KennyHunter9]

One more thing...
I am pretty sick of the media going on about Ratts barracking.
They show the same 30 second clip of him over and over again... the one with him clapping, clasping, grimacing, yelling etc.
They gathered 30 seconds of footage from half a year of coaching and we're meant to think that this is somehow representative of his demeanour. What BS.
Why not sure the full footage of him ... all 20 hours and see how much time he spends carrying on. Of course they won't. It's boring - and it would completely destroy their non-story.

 

[Big Sim]

Who are those second tier players?

Lets see, besides Davies we have White who has previously showed himself capable at AFL level; Rowe, who took Setanta's place on the list to back up Waite but has been unable to; similarly Levis Casboult and Luke Mitchell have not been able to debut when needed. Thornton and Russell have been injured of late too.

This is on top of Laidler, Carrots, Murphy, Warnock, Waite, Yarran and Duigan being out for long periods, Kreuzer and Hendo's ommission vs Port, and Judd and Kreuze clearly carrying injuries of some kind.

Injuries are certainly the main reason behind our decline. The uninjured form of Bower, Lucas, Gibbs and Garlett has also hurt us but would have been somewhat covered by a healthy list. Also keep in mind that when your better players are out injured or not playing well, the role players like Joseph and Bower get exposed.

 

[blue healer]

Lets see, besides Davies we have White who has previously showed himself capable at AFL level; Rowe, who took Setanta's place on the list to back up Waite but has been unable to; similarly Levis Casboult and Luke Mitchell have not been able to debut when needed. Thornton and Russell have been injured of late too.

This is on top of Laidler, Carrots, Murphy, Warnock, Waite, Yarran and Duigan being out for long periods, Kreuzer and Hendo's ommission vs Port, and Judd and Kreuze clearly carrying injuries of some kind.

Injuries are certainly the main reason behind our decline. The uninjured form of Bower, Lucas, Gibbs and Garlett has also hurt us but would have been somewhat covered by a healthy list. Also keep in mind that when your better players are out injured or not playing well, the role players like Joseph and Bower get exposed.

Sorry, I forgot White and probably overlooked both Casboult, Mitchell and Rowe on the basis that, to me, they are all unknown quantities (unfortunately Inever get to see the 2nds play). Whilst Thornton and Russell have been injured of late they haven't missed much footy.

I do agree that, if all these player had been available all year, the m/c would have a lot more options at their disposal and not for one minute do I believe that injuries as a whole have not had a significant impact on our ytd performance. But I also think that if players like Bower, Lucas and Russell had been able to produce what I, for one, hoped they would we would be less concerned with 2nd tier injuries.


BTW to Beerandskittles why bother even responding to a post when you have nothing of value to say?

 

[Beer n Skittles]

Sorry, I forgot White and probably overlooked both Casboult, Mitchell and Rowe on the basis that, to me, they are all unknown quantities (unfortunately Inever get to see the 2nds play). Whilst Thornton and Russell have been injured of late they haven't missed much footy.

I do agree that, if all these player had been available all year, the m/c would have a lot more options at their disposal and not for one minute do I believe that injuries as a whole have not had a significant impact on our ytd performance. But I also think that if players like Bower, Lucas and Russell had been able to produce what I, for one, hoped they would we would be less concerned with 2nd tier injuries.


BTW to Beerandskittles why bother even responding to a post when you have nothing of value to say?

id
I shouldn't have said it that way. You wrote off the injured second tier players by saying they haven't shown exposed form, but if they hadn't been injured and were playing then they'd actually have had a chance to show some form.
Take the tall forward depth for example: Mitchell was tipped for a big year early, Rowe was a mature age recruit who could go straight into the team, Casboult would have been expected to show progression as well.
Injuries to Laidler, Duigan & White also made it impossible until recently to swing Hendo forward.

My apologies for the earlier post

 

[blue healer]

id
I shouldn't have said it that way. You wrote off the injured second tier players by saying they haven't shown exposed form, but if they hadn't been injured and were playing then they'd actually have had a chance to show some form.
Take the tall forward depth for example: Mitchell was tipped for a big year early, Rowe was a mature age recruit who could go straight into the team, Casboult would have been expected to show progression as well.
Injuries to Laidler, Duigan & White also made it impossible until recently to swing Hendo forward.

My apologies for the earlier post

Didn't write off the 2nd tier players as such merely that those I was aware of hadn't had an opportunity to show form at the top level. Davies was the only one I knew (and I rate him) that had some exposure.

Not saying any all or of the others will not ultimately be good players, I just haven't seen 'em and more concerned about disappointing form of players I rate.

BTW I think Hendo is going to be much more value to us back until Watson and Bootsma develope. He then may be our trump card.

 

[Claypigeon]

id
I shouldn't have said it that way. You wrote off the injured second tier players by saying they haven't shown exposed form, but if they hadn't been injured and were playing then they'd actually have had a chance to show some form.
Take the tall forward depth for example: Mitchell was tipped for a big year early, Rowe was a mature age recruit who could go straight into the team, Casboult would have been expected to show progression as well.
Injuries to Laidler, Duigan & White also made it impossible until recently to swing Hendo forward.

My apologies for the earlier post

People also conveniently forget that Walker, Jammo, Warnock and other talls had disrupted or non-existant pre-seasons and missed early games. .. They might not have been injured during the slump but they were trying to find their feet in a injury depleted team. .. and you forgot Davies and Thornton as injured too. ..

Also we had Hendo and Kreuzer out for Port, how many fit talls did we have that week? Still disappointing to lose like we did, hopefully the most disappointing loss of the season. ..

 

[Beer n Skittles]

Didn't write off the 2nd tier players as such merely that those I was aware of hadn't had an opportunity to show form at the top level. Davies was the only one I knew (and I rate him) that had some exposure.

Not saying any all or of the others will not ultimately be good players, I just haven't seen 'em and more concerned about disappointing form of players I rate.

BTW I think Hendo is going to be much more value to us back until Watson and Bootsma develope. He then may be our trump card.

I agree that JR Bower & Lucas have been disappointing. Lucas was a future star in his first couple of matches, then was dropped to the 2nds for a long time, and now he looks like a future list clogger. The other two have also suffered for their time at Northern, their injuries haven't helped.
IMO Watson & Bootsma need to stay in the side to have any chance to develop.

Hendo is the CHB we deserve, but not the CHB we need right now