Brexit - The UK referendum on leaving the EU - Reneging, reshmeging!

[SilentHunter_]

 

[Ruck Machine]

Brexit triggered, leftists triggered ... happy days!

 

[Gough]

Death Penalty, blue passports, and pounds, and ounces. It's like policy made by the punters in a home counties pub.

 

[JackOutback]

Brexit triggered, leftists triggered ... happy days!

All those leftist accountants, lawyers, bankers etc? Your obsessed with the left/right narrative even when it's not in play. The only one 'triggered' is you.

 

[MaddAdam]

"Britain has shot itself in the foot today. Now we will shoot them in the other foot" - unnamed EU negotiator.

The Brits are about to find out just how much the rest of the world hates them.

This is the death of the United Kingdom, itself the last vestige of what was a Tudor English Empire that got its start robbing Spanish galleons and has deluded itself into thinking it can "turn to the sea again", overlooking the fact that the Royal Navy can't even leave port let alone rule the waves, and there is nobody the calibre of Raleigh about the place any more.

 

[The Speaker]

All those leftist accountants, lawyers, bankers etc? Your obsessed with the left/right narrative even when it's not in play. The only one 'triggered' is you.

It's never in play because it doesn't exist.

 

[Ruck Machine]

All those leftist accountants, lawyers, bankers etc? Your obsessed with the left/right narrative even when it's not in play. The only one 'triggered' is you.

Incorrect.

 

[Bomberboyokay]

Playing a "Won't help with security/terryrizm" empty threat on day 1 of negotiations.

The UK is ****ed.

 

[MaddAdam]

Playing a "Won't help with security/terryrizm" empty threat on day 1 of negotiations.

The UK is ******.

It is desperate bluffing stuff.

They need to somehow effectively stay in the common market without agreeing to the harmonisations.

 

[Messenger]

 

[medusala]

"Britain has shot itself in the foot today. Now we will shoot them in the other foot" - unnamed EU negotiator..

Meh, who gives a fruit about some bien pensant cardigan wearer in Brussels. A city whose only claim to fame is a vegetable despised throughout the world

.

The Brits are about to find out just how much the rest of the world hates them..

Tosh. The Eastern Europeans rely on them for defence and Scandinvians re southern Europe fleecing them. This whole everyone hates the Poms is just the sort of whining crap the Micks go ona about (and your pound shop Scot - hardly any surprise the SNP has the catholic vote these days, they arent even real scots)

This is the death of the United Kingdom,

You think the English will shed tears over the welfare recipients leaving? I think not.

.

They need to somehow effectively stay in the common market without agreeing to the harmonisations.

There will be some massive internal arguments in Germany between business world and pollies over this. May (or more likely Davis) has already stared down the City (as if Goldmans and co cant come up with a workaround re passporting)

 

[medusala]

Playing a "Won't help with security/terryrizm" empty threat on day 1 of negotiations.

The UK is ******.

Clueless as usual. You probably think Owen Jones has something to offer.

 

[MaddAdam]

\

Tosh. The Eastern Europeans rely on them for defence and Scandinvians re southern Europe fleecing them. This whole everyone hates the Poms is just the sort of whining crap the Micks go ona about (and your pound shop Scot - hardly any surprise the SNP has the catholic vote these days, they arent even real scots)

LOL, "defence".

The US guarantees European security.

The Royal Navy can't leave port, the Army routinely gets run out places like Sangin and Basra by the locals and the air force is of decent middle power capability, pretty much the same as Australia's.

LOL.

 

[MaddAdam]

You know, since I've been on BF seriously - from about 2007 onwards - the United Kingdom has:

- Seen its economy crash and average living standards are still basically where they were then

- Seen the value of its currency fall dramatically

- Seen national debt rise dramatically

- Lost the wars in Iraq, Afghanistan and Libya

- Faced one near successful political insurrection by the Scots and now have another at the gates

- Seen the Irish Republican Army's political wing become the dominant force in Northern Irish politics

Yet medusala acts like it is 1850 and the empire conquers all before it.

I know he will respond to this with sub-BoJo bullshit about "Jock subsidy junkies" and "Who cares about Johnny Wog in Mesopatamia" and try and blame a Labour government that left office seven years ago.

The reality is the UK is rooted. The United Kingdom as an institution is doomed, the Celtic nations have on foot out the door.

Very soon all that will be left is a deeply divided and deeply unequal and deeply unpleasant rump England dominated by the London city state.

When Elizabeth I came to the throne England was a deeply divided and deeply unequal and deeply unpleasant rainy island off the coast of Europe.

They had an amazing run in the 500 years that followed.

And when Elizabeth II leaves the scene, no matter what Spectatoresque comment section crap meds posts here, they'll be back where they started.

 

[Gough]

Speccy readers, or John Bullshiters as I prefer to call them.

 

[The Speaker]

LOL, "defence".

The US guarantees European security.

The Royal Navy can't leave port, the Army routinely gets run out places like Sangin and Basra by the locals and the air force is of decent middle power capability, pretty much the same as Australia's.

LOL.

Who are they defending against? Russia? Russia's military is, at best, slightly better than Britain's.

 

[medusala]

- Seen national debt rise dramatically

- Lost the wars in Iraq, Afghanistan and Libya

You thank that utterly useless campaigner Gordon Brown for that. UK national debt is similar to France and circa 10% gdp more than Germany

It was 37% in 2000. Blair and Brown really did an amazing job of stuffing things up. Likewise they can take full responsibility for the stuff ups in Aghanistan and Iraq eg lack of equipment, idiotic rules of engagement. Its hardly that they couldnt fight, they were barely able to.

And when Elizabeth II leaves the scene, no matter what Spectatoresque comment section crap meds posts here, they'll be back where they started.

humour. English GDP per capita will be greater than any Euro country ex Norway with its oil wealth.

Scotland on the other hand will be stuffed and will have to cut spending by 10% of gdp. Will be ever so amusing to watch that.

All the intelligent Scots live in London. Only the useless dross like Jimmy Krankie are left.

Very soon all that will be left is a deeply divided and deeply unequal and deeply unpleasant rump England dominated by the London city state.

Deeply unequal. Yep you blame that on idiotic immigation policies pursued by the labour party as well.

Have you been to Paris lately? Now there is a city thats stuffed. Riots right next to gare du nord. Economically stuffed and a woman with (yes hard to believe) less idea on economics that Nicola Sturgeon leading in the polls.

Next you will be telling me how the City is doomed and how Paris is going to take all the business.

 

[darth_timon]

I can't help but feel that we are going to lurch into trouble when it comes to Brexit. It still staggers me to think that a decision with so many far-reaching and unknown consequences required only the slimmest of margins to become binding, which is a joke - two-thirds majority should have been the case.

But, we are stuck with this, so I hope that somehow, somehow, May and the Tory cronies in power do a good job. I suspect we'll end up in a scenario that's more or less the same as before, which would be greatly ironic.

 

[The Speaker]

Gibraltar!

http://news.sky.com/story/brexit-guidelines-eu-hands-spain-power-over-gibraltars-future-10819502

Gibraltar's chief minister has told Sky News the territory "is not going to be a political pawn in Brexit" and will become even more British after leaving the union.

Draft Brexit negotiating guidelines, sent out on Friday, contain a clause suggesting that Spain will be able to veto any future trade deal between the EU and the UK.

The clause has inflamed tensions over the status of 'the Rock', which has been held by the UK since 1713 and is home to UK military bases.

Chief minister Fabian Picardo said that Spain was "employing her unhealthy obsession with Gibraltar and bringing it to the table of a very complex negotiation already".

http://news.sky.com/story/gibraltar...r-brexit-says-chief-minister-picardo-10819502

 

[Pessimistic]

"Britain has shot itself in the foot today. Now we will shoot them in the other foot" - unnamed EU negotiator.

The Brits are about to find out just how much the rest of the world hates them.

This is the death of the United Kingdom, itself the last vestige of what was a Tudor English Empire that got its start robbing Spanish galleons and has deluded itself into thinking it can "turn to the sea again", overlooking the fact that the Royal Navy can't even leave port let alone rule the waves, and there is nobody the calibre of Raleigh about the place any more.

Those Spanish galleons were full of plundered loot. Call it a maritime tax

 

[Pessimistic]

You thank that utterly useless campaigner Gordon Brown for that. UK national debt is similar to France and circa 10% gdp more than Germany

It was 37% in 2000. Blair and Brown really did an amazing job of stuffing things up. Likewise they can take full responsibility for the stuff ups in Aghanistan and Iraq eg lack of equipment, idiotic rules of engagement. Its hardly that they couldnt fight, they were barely able to.



humour. English GDP per capita will be greater than any Euro country ex Norway with its oil wealth.

Scotland on the other hand will be stuffed and will have to cut spending by 10% of gdp. Will be ever so amusing to watch that.

All the intelligent Scots live in London. Only the useless dross like Jimmy Krankie are left.




Deeply unequal. Yep you blame that on idiotic immigation policies pursued by the labour party as well.

Have you been to Paris lately? Now there is a city thats stuffed. Riots right next to gare du nord. Economically stuffed and a woman with (yes hard to believe) less idea on economics that Nicola Sturgeon leading in the polls.

Next you will be telling me how the City is doomed and how Paris is going to take all the business.

britain had oil wealth it handed over to multinationals

 

[medusala]

britain had oil wealth it handed over to multinationals

ha, you usually say that Thatcher took all the revenue and wasted it!

 

[Pessimistic]

ha, you usually say that Thatcher took all the revenue and wasted it!

It's the same thing

 

[Bomberboyokay]

European parliament backs red lines resolution for Brexit negotiations

The European parliament has overwhelmingly voted in favour of a tough negotiating stance towards the British government in the Brexit negotiations.

MEPs in Strasbourg approved a resolution setting out the parliament’s red lines in the coming talks by 516 votes to 133, with 50 abstentions, comfortably exceeding the two-thirds majority sought by parliament leaders to show unity behind their approach.

The resolution backs “phased negotiations” in the divorce proceedings, going against the wishes of Theresa May’s government, which would like exit talks and discussions of a future trade arrangement to happen in parallel. Talks on such a deal can also only occur once London has come to a settlement with the EU on its financial liabilities and the rights of citizens.

The parliament leaves open the possibility that UK citizens might be able to individually apply to keep the rights they currently enjoy, and suggests Ukraine’s association agreement might be a future model for an EU-UK trade deal.

However, the resolution also says that any transition arrangements to cushion the UK’s departure, such as tariff-free access to the single market, can only last a maximum of three years after the UK departs.

The parliament’s motion also backs making the European court of justice responsible for settling any legal challenges during the transition period, and is opposed to a special deal for the City of London.

May’s letter notifying the president of the European council last week of the UK’s intention to leave explicitly called for parallel talks, a position the prime minister has maintained in recent comments.

However, the EU’s chief negotiator, Michel Barnier, said the European parliament – as the first EU institution to respond to May’s letter and the institution that will ultimately be asked for its consent on a deal – had set the tone for the talks.

Speaking to MEPs during the debate that preceded the vote, Barnier said it was not a ruse on the part of the EU to insist on dealing with the UK’s divorce bill first, but an essential precondition for success.

“A single financial settlement, as a result of UK commitments to the EU, and the EU commitments to the UK – there your resolution is very clear. We do not seek to punish the UK, but simply ask the UK to deliver on its commitments and undertakings as a member of the EU.”

Addressing the former Ukip leader, Nigel Farage, who earlier in the debate accused the EU of behaving like the mafia in making “impossible demands”, Barnier said: “In fact, Mr Farage, all we are doing is settling the accounts, no more, no less.”

The EU believes that the UK Treasury will need to pay about €60bn (£51bn) to cover unpaid budget commitments, pension liabilities, loan guarantees and spending on UK-based projects.

Some cabinet ministers have dismissed the idea of the UK paying a large bill on leaving. However, Barnier explained that the EU could not with confidence discuss the future without the British government having dealt with its commitments from the past.

“The UK letter makes clear that the UK government will push for parallel negotiations on the withdrawal and the future relations,” he said.

“This is a very risky approach. To succeed we need, on the contrary, to devote the first phase of the negotiation to reaching an agreement on the principles of exit. We are not proposing this to be tactical or to create difficulties for the UK.

“On the contrary, it is an essential condition to maximise the chance of reaching an agreement together in two years, which is very short. It is also our best chance to build trust. To build trust before proceeding to the second phase of negotiations.”

The European parliament’s Brexit coordinator, the former prime minister of Belgium, Guy Verhofstadt, spoke sadly of Britain’s withdrawal during the debate, but admitted it had “never been a love affair”. “Perhaps it was always impossible to unite Great Britain with the continent,” he added.

He said he believed a young leader would in time try to place the UK back in the EU, when a new generation was able to see Brexit “for what it is – a catfight in the Conservative party that got out of hand, a loss of time, a waste of energy, a stupidity”.

Speaking after the vote, Verhofstadt added: “It is fairly clear what the message is: we ask [the European commission] to be very firm towards the UK authorities because we cannot accept that the status outside the union is more favourable than membership of the EU. On the other hand, we are very generous, open, positive to UK citizens.”

During the debate, MEPs repeatedly cited the rows over claims that May had tried to blackmail the EU by threatening to weaken security cooperation and the comments made by the former Tory leader, Michael Howard, suggesting the UK would go to war over Gibraltar.

Esteban González Pons, a key ally of the Spanish prime minister, said: “Just seven days after Brexit we are hearing outburst of racism and some members of parliament are talking about war.” He added: “Unfortunately the UK has chosen the wrong road in history ...

“You have got it wrong , you are going to commit self-harm while at the same time harming all of us ... I hope you think again and get it right. I hope you won’t be blinded by arrogance.”

Jean-Claude Juncker, president of the European commission, told MEPs that he was profoundly sad about Brexit, but that the parliament and the commission were on the “same lines”. He said: “The choice of the British people, however respectable that may be, does not fit into the march of history – not European history and not global history.”

He added: “No deal would be the worst-case scenario ... No deal means no winners. Everybody will lose. That is why we will proceed with negotiations with the UK to try to reduce the damage caused to people, to trade and to societies.”

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...ment-red-lines-resolution-brexit-negotiations

 

[Bomberboyokay]

What happens to Norwegians in the UK after Brexit?

By Jess Furseth 15 April 2017

Norwegians long resident in the UK suddenly find there is no one to fight their corner.

What’s it worth to have made another country your own? As Brexit looms, this is the question facing three million EU citizens living and working in Britain. What does it take before you can officially be counted as a person who belongs? Right now, there’s no answer to this conundrum as the UK government made it very clear in the run-up to Article 50: there are no guarantees for the future of Europeans in this country.

That includes Norwegians. While Norway is not a member of the European Union - and therefore can only indirectly influence Brexit negotiations - its citizens in the UK benefit from free movement rules, because Norway is part of the European Economic Area. And there is an extra complication - Norway doesn’t allow its people to take dual citizenship.

Hilde Grønsberg (36) came to England when she was 20 years old and has lived her whole adult life here. She has a British education, a British career, a British husband, and two British-born children - and Norwegian citizenship. Until Brexit, Grønsberg never thought much about her immigrant status. “People would ask me if I wanted to get an English passport and I'd say, why? There's nothing my Norwegian passport can't do. I've never felt the need to become a British citizen.”

Grønsberg, who lives in Southampton and works in charity, feels overwhelmed by what’s happening. She believes she’d qualify for a UK residency permit, but says she won’t be starting the bureaucratic process unless she’s told she faces deportation: “I don't think it's going to come to that. But maybe I'm being overly optimistic?” While the thought of having her life uprooted is frightening, Grønsberg can’t quite picture it happening - England is home. “I've started to get a bit rusty when I speak Norwegian. I struggle with the words. It does something to you, living so many years in another country.”

Oddi Aasheim (48), who came to London 29 years ago, has just watched his Hong Kong Chinese-born wife go through the process of becoming British. Aasheim, who’s a co-founder of a consultancy, has two UK-born children who’re Norwegians: “Staying Norwegian always seemed to be the best option, until Brexit.” The uncertainty of the current situation weighs heavily on Aasheim, both personally and professionally. “In the long term I’m not worried, as I believe things will fall into place. But I expect we will go into a period of chaos,” says Aasheim. “Even if they figure it out, it will probably be six months to a year before any paperwork is processed.”

Agnes Bamford (47) was never concerned about her immigrant status before. “I’m worried now. I'm starting a mortgage application, and I just read that some EU citizens aren't getting approved for mortgages. I feel a bit stateless at the moment.” Bamford, who’s a self-employed consultant, left Norway 22 years ago to join her Irish boyfriend in London. Bamford is now considering applying for permanent residency to ensure the family can stay in Britain, at least until her UK-born kids finish school.

Ideally, Bamford would like to apply for British citizenship, but that would mean relinquishing her Norwegian passport - a tough ask. Similarly to Austria, Norway has strict rules against acquiring a second citizenship, with few exceptions. But this may change: the question of dual citizenship is on the political agenda, says Donna Louise Fox, founder of Ja til Dobbelt Statsborgerskap (Yes to Dual Citizenship), an independent pressure group. A report from Norway’s Ministry of Justice and Public Security is expected after Easter, and the political parties will be determining their positions during the party conference season this spring. “There’s absolutely a possibility there’ll be a majority for dual citizenship in the next parliament,” Fox says in Norwegian. “It’s still uncertain,” she cautions, but dual citizenship for Norwegians could become possible from 2018.

*

Every year, Norway provides the Trafalgar Square Christmas tree as a thank you for Britain’s support during World War II. For several people I spoke to, this so-called special relationship represents hope that an agreement will be reached. But equally likely is that Norway, as a non-EU country, will be at the back of the negotiation queue.

Jane Nilsen (70) witnessed just how difficult it was for Europeans to gain the right to stay in Britain before the EU. “I married a Norwegian back in 1973. We were working on the car ferries in Southampton at the time.” Then her husband lost his job, and with that, his right to stay. Nilsen had to rush back to work after the birth of her youngest daughter, and her husband was eventually granted the right to stay in Britain: “You'd have thought it'd be automatic [as we were married], but he had to jump through all those hoops.”

Until Brexit negotiations are concluded, the is no way to predict the rules for EU and EEA citizens in Britain. Hanne Christiansen, Culture and Communications Officer at the Royal Norwegian Embassy in London, recommends people start collecting documentation such as utility bills and bank statements in anticipation of future paperwork. “Norwegian citizens living in the UK may [already now] want to apply for an EU registration certificate, which confirms your right to live in the UK,” says Christiansen. The Embassy receives many questions from people who are concerned about their future, says Christiansen, but she has little to offer in terms of reassurance: “[We] recommend that Norwegian citizens follow news from the British government on the negotiation process.”

Every Norwegian I spoke to expressed hope that rationality will win out - a Scandinavian attitude if there ever was one - and no one could bring themselves to truly believe they would be forced to leave Britain. Anita Holme Pearce (40) moved from Norway to Kirkby Fleetham in Yorkshire four years ago, after a decade’s long-distance-relationship with her British husband: ”That was the main reason I moved, so we could be together as a family.” Holme Pearce is currently a student, but like many Europeans she was unaware of obscure rules requiring non-citizens who’re not earning to have private health insurance in order to qualify for residency. Still, Holme Pearce isn’t worried: “I own property here that I’ve paid for, I’m married to an Englishman, our boys have British passports. I can't see that they will kick me out.”

Bamford, on the other hand, says the situation has made her question if she really wants to live in Britain: “I don't feel as welcome anymore.” Brexit has also been a wake-up call to the fact that immigrants from Western Europe have had a very easy time in Britain until now: “I do feel more empathetic towards all those people who haven't had the same rights, and what they have to face,” says Bamford. “It makes you realise how vulnerable [most immigrants] feel.”

The uncertainty over Brexit won’t go away anytime soon, meaning Norwegians and other Europeans in Britain will have to live with this frustration for years. Some are angry, but the prevailing feeling is sadness over the realisation that the country where they’ve built their lives (and paid tax) may not care whether they stay or go. The poor political planning around Brexit exacerbates this feeling, says Grønsberg: “I don't think they have any idea what they're doing.” No one is disputing that this country belongs to the British, but the three million Europeans who’ve made it their home can’t help but feel that they deserve better than being left in limbo.

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/brexit/2017/04/what-happens-norwegians-uk-after-brexit