Bring back Schultz soon

[Ando_4]

Don't think I have proved his point at all. Remember he said it was a rare occassion for second forwards to be kicking 40+ goals in a season. I showed 4 sides where it did happen and that was just last season.

You suggest that only 4 teams achieved it. There's 16 teams in the comp correct?
I'd say that's a pretty convincing argument that it's hardly a common occurence.

 

[_RT_]

You suggest that only 4 teams achieved it. There's 16 teams in the comp correct?
I'd say that's a pretty convincing argument that it's hardly a common occurence.

So 25% of the competition does something in one year, IMO that would suggest it is not that rare at all. If you like:

2005 saw the Swans Roos Dons Saints Crows and Dees all have 2 or more players kick at least 40 goals

2004 saw Saints, Lions, Cats & Freo have 2 or more players up around the 40 goal mark.

2003 saw the Dogs, Dees, Pies, Swans, Port, Freo & Hawks have at least 2 players up near the 40 goal level.

To me that would indicate that it is not that rare an occurance and something we should be expecting of our side if we want to start moving up the ladder.

 

[Ando_4]

We are not getting anywhere here. I guess it depends what your idea of rare is.
IMO 25/75 is a pretty significant minority despite your twist on it to enhance your argument.
You have also included goal kicking mids in your examples to shore up your argument against Jay.

Rayzorwire specifically said in his post.

Anything over 40 or so a season from your 2nd option key forward is downright unusual and only happening in a handful of sides.

He is correct and Schulz falls into that category whilst Richardson is our key focus in the forward line.

 

[santa claws]

where has richo played most of this yr . then ask yourself where has jay played. it seems to me schulz is in the number one position.
anyway i couldnt give a fat rats arse how many goals schulz kicked its what we get out of him after the few times when he manages to get his hands on the ball.

 

[Ando_4]

where has richo played most of this yr . then ask yourself where has jay played. it seems to me schulz is in the number one position.

That's total BS and you know it.
Richardson is the key focus up forward in our side. and is again tonight with Hughes hardly having an influence.

 

[_RT_]

We are not getting anywhere here. I guess it depends what your idea of rare is.
IMO 25/75 is a pretty significant minority despite your twist on it to enhance your argument.
You have also included goal kicking mids in your examples to shore up your argument against Jay.

Rayzorwire specifically said in his post.

Anything over 40 or so a season from your 2nd option key forward is downright unusual and only happening in a handful of sides.

He is correct and Schulz falls into that category whilst Richardson is our key focus in the forward line.

Do yourself a favour then and have a look at the sides I mentioned in that list and see the players that were the players that kicked 40 odd goals and try and argue which ones were not second option key forwards. The more I prove that it is not such a rare happening the more you want to change it up. Pies had Tarrant and Rocca, Saints had Gehrig and Riewoldt, Dee had Neitz and Robbo, Lions had Lynch Brown and Bradshaw, Swans had Hall and Micky, Dogs had Johnson and Brown. There is nor reason we should not expect 40-50 goals from Jay all things being equal.

Oh and on the point of Hughes he played off the bench in the ruck or filling in for Polak down back when Polak rucked not as a key forward

 

[Rayzorwire]

Just to clarify RT, as Magic said, I did qualify my statement by saying:

Anything over 40 or so a season from your 2nd option key forward is downright unusual and only happening in a handful of sides.

Stats bear that out. The "handful" of sides who are in that bracket are generally the top sides in the comp - their forwards get more quality supply.

When you say:

To me that would indicate that it is not that rare an occurance and something we should be expecting of our side if we want to start moving up the ladder.

I think you're putting the cart before the horse. Our forwards will start kicking more goals collectively when we have a more dominant midfield. On Friday night there was plenty of goals to be shared around because we dominated the midfield for half the game.

I agree that Schulz can and should work harder on getting into the game when things aren't going his/our way, but by body type he's a sit and sprint leading power forward who kicks well and can take a good aerial grab. He's not a natural athlete who can roam half the ground like Richo, pick up 20+ possessions and be more dangerous as the game goes on because his opponent is exhausted.

He probably never will be - he'll be a ~10 possession player who will kick plenty when he gets the opportunity. He's a throwback to the days where on a better than average day a FF would have 9 kicks, 1 handball, and end up kicking 5:4 for the match with the handball a goal assist to the FP.

To my thinking, we have two natural potential CHF's in Reiwoldt and Hughes. Neither look like being the sort of players who will be able to play FF as well as they'll play CHF/CHB, nor as well as Schulz can and will.

 

[_RT_]

Just to clarify RT, as Magic said, I did qualify my statement by saying:

Stats bear that out. The "handful" of sides who are in that bracket are generally the top sides in the comp - their forwards get more quality supply.

When you say:

I think you're putting the cart before the horse. Our forwards will start kicking more goals collectively when we have a more dominant midfield. On Friday night there was plenty of goals to be shared around because we dominated the midfield for half the game.

I agree that Schulz can and should work harder on getting into the game when things aren't going his/our way, but by body type he's a sit and sprint leading power forward who kicks well and can take a good aerial grab. He's not a natural athlete who can roam half the ground like Richo, pick up 20+ possessions and be more dangerous as the game goes on because his opponent is exhausted.

He probably never will be - he'll be a ~10 possession player who will kick plenty when he gets the opportunity. He's a throwback to the days where on a better than average day a FF would have 9 kicks, 1 handball, and end up kicking 5:4 for the match with the handball a goal assist to the FP.

To my thinking, we have two natural potential CHF's in Reiwoldt and Hughes. Neither look like being the sort of players who will be able to play FF as well as they'll play CHF/CHB, nor as well as Schulz can and will.

Will take that and will just say that my opinion on Jay is that for him to make it IMO he needs to become a Fevola type of player and just demand the ball be kicked to him. That unfortunately will not happen while we still have Richo playing. IIRC the game against the Lions was when Richo was injured and he was the focus, same as the game against the Pies in the wet last year. For Jay to truly succeed we may just have to wait for Richo to retire or Jay has to get his fitness level up so that he can play that roaming game. Because as it stands now with Richo playing from the square he is not going to get much of a look in.

 

[Ando_4]

Because as it stands now with Richo playing from the square he is not going to get much of a look in.

Whilst I love Richo, unfortunately this is true.
It's short sighted by Wallace IMO because the harsh reality is our veteran full forward will not be there when this team becomes successful in two or three years.
They way things are headed it's unlikely Schulz will be either..

Richardson & Brown are in the twilight of their careers and yet still so much rests at the feet of these two players for our ongoing success. When they go we need to have some already ingrained players ready to take over or we will wallow in mediocrity forever more. All eggs are in the one basket currently.

A question for all those Schulz baggers.
If as it seems many would like, Jay is traded at the end of '07 (he won't be delisted as contracted in '08) and Richardson is hit by injury next season(very plausible), then who steps up to fill the gap?

 

[itsintheblood]

Whilst I love Richo, unfortunately this is true.
It's short sighted by Wallace IMO because the harsh reality is our veteran full forward will not be there when this team becomes successful in two or three years.
They way things are headed it's unlikely Schulz will be either..

Richardson & Brown are in the twilight of their careers and yet still so much rests at the feet of these two players for our ongoing success. When they go we need to have some already ingrained players ready to take over or we will wallow in mediocrity forever more. All eggs are in the one basket currently.

A question for all those Schulz baggers.
If as it seems many would like, Jay is traded at the end of '07 (he won't be delisted as contracted in '08) and Richardson is hit by injury next season(very plausible), then who steps up to fill the gap?

Kent Kingsley.

 

[Ando_4]

Kent Kingsley.

I rest my case for Sarge to be retained.

 

[Maquis de Saad]

both doing their bit ........... for coburg

 

[santa claws]

Whilst I love Richo, unfortunately this is true.
It's short sighted by Wallace IMO because the harsh reality is our veteran full forward will not be there when this team becomes successful in two or three years.
They way things are headed it's unlikely Schulz will be either..

Richardson & Brown are in the twilight of their careers and yet still so much rests at the feet of these two players for our ongoing success. When they go we need to have some already ingrained players ready to take over or we will wallow in mediocrity forever more. All eggs are in the one basket currently.

A question for all those Schulz baggers.
If as it seems many would like, Jay is traded at the end of '07 (he won't be delisted as contracted in '08) and Richardson is hit by injury next season(very plausible), then who steps up to fill the gap?

who steps up to fill the gap if schulz is kept. schulz lol hes a failure might as well keep kingsley.

in effect what you are saying is, we have to keep schulz because there is no one else in the system. lets keep him even though he is not good enough. its exactly this sort of thing that has kept us in perpetual mediocrity.your schulzs halls kellaways staffords gaspars hollands and its gone on and on over the yrs have all been hung onto for to long because we have not drafted players to replace them. our list management has been and continues to be shit.
and why worry about who will step up when injury hits. the club certainly hasnt just lookk at what happened in recent yrs in regards to kpd and ruckmen going down. ive complained about this for 5 yrs and still nothing is done and still many ferals believe we dont need to significantly bolster our tall stocks.i ask what will happen when thursfield and polak go down play hall what a joke. what happens when richo goes down play schulz just as big a joke.

imo we have just 7 long term tall options on the list one of them is a dud and 2 others have huge question marks about them. as usual im certain the rfc will sit on its hands a do nothing about this situation even though it has hurt us terribly over the last 4 or 5 yrs.

 

[Rayzorwire]

Will take that and will just say that my opinion on Jay is that for him to make it IMO he needs to become a Fevola type of player and just demand the ball be kicked to him. That unfortunately will not happen while we still have Richo playing. IIRC the game against the Lions was when Richo was injured and he was the focus, same as the game against the Pies in the wet last year. For Jay to truly succeed we may just have to wait for Richo to retire or Jay has to get his fitness level up so that he can play that roaming game. Because as it stands now with Richo playing from the square he is not going to get much of a look in.

Yeah RT, the two games he's looked best - one of them the game against the Wobbles where it was a tough day for big blokes - Richo has been out of the side. It's no coincidence.

Once our midfield starts delivering more quality ball forward and running sides off their legs they'll both play deep I'd expect - as we did with Stafford.

The other positive aspect of playing Schulz is that he's a genuine key forward, not a resting ruckman. Once Hughes and Reiwoldt have more senior bodies, confidence and experience, we become a very tough forward line to match up on - you can't dump a 2nd ruckman or a crap tall down there on any of the three or they'll get killed and we can just direct our attack through that player. Schulz, Hughes or Reiwoldt kick a couple in quick succession and the coach has to consider moving Richo's man to one of them and risk the big fella running riot. Any top smaller defenders who are capable of playing tall already have to contend with Brown and/or Pettifer.

Throw any combination of Polak, Simmonds, Hall and Pattison (all mobile, capable forwards) into the mix and we become an opposition coach's nightmare.

A midfield who can give us first use and quality delivery is the only missing ingredient between 16th and top-4. Another year for Foley to grow further (particularly stamina and nouse), an injury free, fit and firing Tuck, Coughlan back somewhere near his best, a bunch of good outsiders and some versatile young midfielders coming through ...we're really not far off if we can get a fair portion of our crucial players on the field at the same time. For the years coming we have the right mix of topline vets (Richo, Brown, Simmonds...Johnson in the opinion of some) and young stars in waiting.

Whilst I love Richo, unfortunately this is true.
It's short sighted by Wallace IMO because the harsh reality is our veteran full forward will not be there when this team becomes successful in two or three years.
They way things are headed it's unlikely Schulz will be either..

Richardson & Brown are in the twilight of their careers and yet still so much rests at the feet of these two players for our ongoing success. When they go we need to have some already ingrained players ready to take over or we will wallow in mediocrity forever more. All eggs are in the one basket currently.

I suspect we're being so firm (harsh if you like) with Schulz to make him hungry Magic. From a distance I disagree with the tactic, but I don't spend 6 days a week around the bloke, watch him train, know what instructions he's given etc.

Even if he, Hughes and Reiwoldt spend a lot of time at Coburg until Brown and Richo bow out, they'll still be better players for that time. But they all must be retained IMO.

 

[Wally Matera]

 

[santa claws]

That's total BS and you know it.
Richardson is the key focus up forward in our side. and is again tonight with Hughes hardly having an influence.

lol where has schulz been playing. is ff the correct answer if so that would make him the no 1 kf target. you blokes should hear or read yourselves. jay has been poor because the midfield dont kick it to him. jay cant get it because he cant work in with richo. its really quite amusing reading all the excuses you blokes make for underperforming duds.

 

[Ando_4]

lol where has schulz been playing. is ff the correct answer if so that would make him the no 1 kf target.

Schulz isn't the only KPF at the club who's having trouble operating with Richardson.

You are totally deluded if you think Richo sharing the forward 50m with any other KPF is still not our number 1 target. He is still quite clearly the 'go to' player and I will argue that until I am blue in the face. His presence is huge in the forward line. Always has been.

Aside from Hughes's two weeks where he played forward and kicked three goals a piece with Richardson playing up the ground, how effective has he been since then from playing beside MR?
He's been virtually invisible and has barely kicked another goal.
It is no coincidence that Hughes kicked those bags when Richo was well out of the front half. Now he's being wasted on and off the bench in defence/ruck etc. because Wallace doesn't know how to use him as a KPF beside Richo either.

To add to this how many goals did did your beloved Kent Kingsley kick playing as a key forward in the same forward line as Richardson over the past few weeks before he was dropped? His goal average was far lower than Schulz's has been this year...

..and for that matter how did young Jack Riewoldt go playing beside Richo in his much hyped debut after kicking several bags of goals in the VFL?
Barely got a kick & it seemed to me he kept getting in Richo's way or was it the other way around. Another young forward dropped back to the Magoos..

Richardson is a great player and all of these young footballers have got some way to go before they can ever be mentioned in the same breath as him. However Richardson/Brown aside I am not sure the way our current forward structure is developing is keeping one eye on the future. The development of these guys up front seems to be average to say the least.

 

[RichosGuns]

^^^
|||

Alot of these comments are not valid. Huges and Riewoldt have particulary struggle whilst Richo plays up foward. Riewoldt was playing his first game and got limited game time, and since his recall to the side Huges hasn't had much game time and been playing down back and in the ruck alot also.

To say its Richo's fault the Schultz isn't in the side is insane. If Schultz had the work ethic to be a CHF he would slip into the side everygame. There is no point in playing Richo up the ground at CHF and play Schultz at FF when Richo is going to be more dominate in the square.

Schultz simply needs to work on his mental side and his work ethic. He isn't given the ball as much as Richo, but he just has to work harder. If you look at our key fowards (Richo, Pettifer, Brown), or any teams key fowards (ie Fev, JBrown), if they are having a shocker up foward they will push up the ground to the wings to try and get some touches to get a feel for the game. I can never say I have seen Schultz take a mark in the defensive side of the ground when play foward, he rarley takes them on the flanks or wings aswell.

He just needs to increase his work ethic, at Coburg now and at Richmond later

 

[santa claws]

Schulz isn't the only KPF at the club who's having trouble operating with Richardson.

You are totally deluded if you think Richo sharing the forward 50m with any other KPF is still not our number 1 target. He is still quite clearly the 'go to' player and I will argue that until I am blue in the face. His presence is huge in the forward line. Always has been.

Aside from Hughes's two weeks where he played forward and kicked three goals a piece with Richardson playing up the ground, how effective has he been since then from playing beside MR?
He's been virtually invisible and has barely kicked another goal.
It is no coincidence that Hughes kicked those bags when Richo was well out of the front half. Now he's being wasted on and off the bench in defence/ruck etc. because Wallace doesn't know how to use him as a KPF beside Richo either.

To add to this how many goals did did your beloved Kent Kingsley kick playing as a key forward in the same forward line as Richardson over the past few weeks before he was dropped? His goal average was far lower than Schulz's has been this year...

..and for that matter how did young Jack Riewoldt go playing beside Richo in his much hyped debut after kicking several bags of goals in the VFL?
Barely got a kick & it seemed to me he kept getting in Richo's way or was it the other way around. Another young forward dropped back to the Magoos..

Richardson is a great player and all of these young footballers have got some way to go before they can ever be mentioned in the same breath as him. However Richardson/Brown aside I am not sure the way our current forward structure is developing is keeping one eye on the future. The development of these guys up front seems to be average to say the least.

talk about grasping at straws to justify a players non performances.
schulz is the only other kpp at the club along with kingsley who are ready to play kp atm.the fact both of them cant get a kick should tell you where they are at.
hughes has hardly played in the forward line and had minimal game time hes helping out in the ruck for one simple reason we have no one else to play there atm. he should not be asked to play in ruck or kp at the moment he simply is not ready even though he shows heaps of promise.he should be a third tall option atm but we have been forced to play him ruck chf ff because your mate cant stand up and do a decent job in one of the key posts. riewoldt is in the same boat. when given a game he should be the third tall option playing of hff.

at the end of the day we will argue to blue in the face. it comes down to how you rate the players and their perfomances. you obviously rate schulz and his performances and find excuses for his failure. i dont.hes been terrible.
hes slow one dimensional dumb poor when the ball hits the ground and lazy. hes not versatile cant be played back and theres so many kpp who having been drafted after or the same time as him have gone past him or should i say players i rate more highly than him its not funny.
do the exercise and be honest how many youngsters would you take in front of schulz and base it on potential because thats how we still rate schulz on his so called potential.

for what its worth i dont think we have had a quality kpf to pair up with richo for god knows how long. in recent times dinosaur ben holland whose performances at richmond has easily out shone schulz efforts so far and what a dud he is. stafford and ottens both ruckmen who we popped in the square both easily have out performed schulz when played forward.morrison was another sheesh its not as if he has had oposition to him making one of the key posts his own. as i have said you blame richo when the blame should be layed squarely at schulzs feet.

 

[CoggaRules]

fellas, lets just sum it up with this. When Richo played his first game, he wasnt being talked about by only us. He took the game by the scruff off the neck and had the media abuzz.
Now show me one of our "developing" KPPS, that have come in and done that and then we might be talking.
So far JS. Oh he needs this, but he has to be given that, gee he took a good mark, so he has what it takes etc etc etc .
FFS, Richo came into the side and he wanted the ball from the first minute. Ran everywhere to get it and got it. These "developing' KPPS that we talk of, all of them to a tee, need to be spoon fed FFS.
Get off your asses and make a mark .