Preview Brisbane Lions v Carlton Blues Round 18 Saturday 7.40pm - The Gabba

Remove this Banner Ad

Status
Not open for further replies.

jackess

Hall of Famer
Aug 10, 2005
39,881
34,764
AFL Club
Brisbane Lions
The tall and tall of it: How AFL ruck strategy has evolved


http://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-09-17/afl-analysis-how-ruck-strategy-has-evolved/12668180

This was a very interesting read In the development of ruck tactics. The take home is that having a second ruckman that is a “good footballer” is more important than having someone who can simply win tap outs or make a contest. Oscar McInerney fits that Bill, with his high clearance rate (rated 4th for clearances in 2020), mobility, good hands and ability to go forward. This is where having Stef Martin back in the team is going to be a massive boost, with Stef taking the primary ruck role and Oscar playing the second ruck role and freed up to wreak havoc in the forward line.
Basically every teams ruck is 4th or 5th in clearances at their team apart from the freaks like Goldstein, Natanui and Grundy because they go to so many clearances and ruck frees count as clearances.
 

Johnny Bananas

Norm Smith Medallist
Sep 10, 2010
5,164
5,914
A sugar refinery
AFL Club
Brisbane Lions
The tall and tall of it: How AFL ruck strategy has evolved


http://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-09-17/afl-analysis-how-ruck-strategy-has-evolved/12668180

This was a very interesting read In the development of ruck tactics. The take home is that having a second ruckman that is a “good footballer” is more important than having someone who can simply win tap outs or make a contest. Oscar McInerney fits that Bill, with his high clearance rate (rated 4th for clearances in 2020), mobility, good hands and ability to go forward. This is where having Stef Martin back in the team is going to be a massive boost, with Stef taking the primary ruck role and Oscar playing the second ruck role and freed up to wreak havoc in the forward line.
It'll be good if Stef returns to what he was, but it's not a foregone conclusion given his age. We still need to consider a succession plan.

These parts stood out to me:

This is particularly the case for the biggest players. Some rucks can loiter up forward, play as a spare back or even as an extra linkman/tall marking target down the line. However, more get lost when asked to do anything outside their main role.

A team's second ruck has to play meaningful minutes in non-ruck roles, otherwise other teams will exploit them around the ground. It doesn't even really matter if they win hitouts when forced into the ruck.
This suggests to me that we're not going to have significant issues if we sign another key forward and have McStay act as relief ruck. He's tall enough to give a good contest but he doesn't have to win them necessarily, and he can play all three of the suggested secondary roles. I really think freeing him to move around the ground more is a good idea.
 

3KZ is Football

Brownlow Medallist
Jun 17, 2008
19,150
21,375
In the grandstand at the Brunswick St. Oval
AFL Club
Brisbane Lions
Other Teams
Fitzroy Football Club
It'll be good if Stef returns to what he was, but it's not a foregone conclusion given his age. We still need to consider a succession plan.

These parts stood out to me:


This suggests to me that we're not going to have significant issues if we sign another key forward and have McStay act as relief ruck. He's tall enough to give a good contest but he doesn't have to win them necessarily, and he can play all three of the suggested secondary roles. I really think freeing him to move around the ground more is a good idea.
I agree. The point you quoted stood out to me also. What it did highlight was that if Archie is going to play he needs to do much more around the ground and to be honest, he is not a complete enough footballer to be of real value. He couldn't, for example, perform the role that Oscar was when we had Stefan Martin in the team and playing well. The reseach / data in in the piece would support your idea Johnny, that a player like McStay or even a Ballenden would be a better option as second ruck, because winning ruck contests is not that important, but playing a role around the ground or as a floating forward is.
 

(Log in to remove this ad.)

Jason mp

Brownlow Medallist
Aug 31, 2015
20,031
39,067
By the Gabba.
AFL Club
Brisbane Lions
Other Teams
Valleys. Chelsea.
It'll be good if Stef returns to what he was, but it's not a foregone conclusion given his age. We still need to consider a succession plan.

These parts stood out to me:


This suggests to me that we're not going to have significant issues if we sign another key forward and have McStay act as relief ruck. He's tall enough to give a good contest but he doesn't have to win them necessarily, and he can play all three of the suggested secondary roles. I really think freeing him to move around the ground more is a good idea.
I agree. The point you quoted stood out to me also. What it did highlight was that if Archie is going to play he needs to do much more around the ground and to be honest, he is not a complete enough footballer to be of real value. He couldn't, for example, perform the role that Oscar was when we had Stefan Martin in the team and playing well. The reseach / data in in the piece would support your idea Johnny, that a player like McStay or even a Ballenden would be a better option as second ruck, because winning ruck contests is not that important, but playing a role around the ground or as a floating forward is.
Yep Archie has a hell of a long way to go to be the answer as out 2nd ruck if Fages and co want to stick to their 2 genuine ruck strategy.

Tom Fullarton with another pre season honing his ruck craft is the answer IMO, he has already shown he can be a threat around the ground.
 

briztoon

Wannabe Draft Nuffie
Nov 28, 2015
12,563
12,101
Brisbane
AFL Club
Brisbane Lions
Other Teams
NUFC, Philadelphia 76'ers
Hey guys, I can’t get this weekends game due to coming down with a cold.

I have my ticket and two unpaid guest tickets to pass on if anyone here wants to go. The tickets are in section 42, row BB.

Conditions from the club on my ticket is that you need to pay for the guest tickets and take all three seats, or all the tickets will be automatically returned.

PM me if you want them.
 

Mighty Lions

Team Captain
Jan 9, 2019
572
1,378
AFL Club
Brisbane Lions
Channel 7 News in Brisbane last night might have given a bit away. In a flash of Lions training it showed Berry doing tackle practice. Now it could have been old footage but his shoulder was taped up and I cant remember him having it taped before.
If passed fit by the medico's, Berry will not be rested.
 

DERRINALPHIL

Club Legend
Sep 16, 2001
1,461
2,069
Behind the goals at the BSO
AFL Club
Brisbane Lions
Other Teams
Fitzroy, Mercantile C
A thought has come to me. Last week was the worse conditions for an Archie type player and while I didn't rate his game I think one could say he did as well as one could expect.

Much better weather forecast for Saturday. Let's see what Archie can do in more clement conditions.

Still want Stef back though
 

jackess

Hall of Famer
Aug 10, 2005
39,881
34,764
AFL Club
Brisbane Lions
A thought has come to me. Last week was the worse conditions for an Archie type player and while I didn't rate his game I think one could say he did as well as one could expect.

Much better weather forecast for Saturday. Let's see what Archie can do in more clement conditions.

Still want Stef back though
It wasn't the worst conditions. It allowed us to play Oscar as a marking target which was invaluable. It's a myth that talls shouldn't play in the wet. It's the smaller players who rely on speed and skill which struggle in the wet.
 

(Log in to remove this ad.)

Gadzorks

Norm Smith Medallist
Oct 23, 2015
5,105
7,227
AFL Club
Brisbane Lions
A thought has come to me. Last week was the worse conditions for an Archie type player and while I didn't rate his game I think one could say he did as well as one could expect.

Much better weather forecast for Saturday. Let's see what Archie can do in more clement conditions.

Still want Stef back though
Lyons on the roar deal podcast was asked about Oscar and he was highly complimentary of both Oscar and Archie. Rates Archies work. Figure his opinion is worth listening too.

Also said he loves wet weather footy when the speed drops he comes into his best.
 

Nunez

Premium Platinum
Aug 9, 2013
16,400
29,204
Brisbane
AFL Club
Brisbane Lions
I would still prefer to see Bez given another week off
If he's 100% though, why would we?

Both times last year he was rusty in his first games back from injury - he seems to be the type of player (at this early stage of his career) that benefits from getting rid of ring rust by competing compared to training.
 

JasRulz63

Norm Smith Medallist
May 26, 2007
8,510
7,191
Melbourne
AFL Club
Brisbane Lions
I do love how "corkie" is an accepted classification of an injury. :D

If Stef is fit, I wonder if we would give him a run this game, instead of bringing him back in a final. Given the choice we usually only play Smith for 40-50% game time anyway, so we could play him for a similar amount of game time.
 

Mighty Lions

Team Captain
Jan 9, 2019
572
1,378
AFL Club
Brisbane Lions
If he's 100% though, why would we?

Both times last year he was rusty in his first games back from injury - he seems to be the type of player (at this early stage of his career) that benefits from getting rid of ring rust by competing compared to training.
Agree 100%. There was 0% damage to his shoulder due to the dis location so playing him is a given providing he has minimal pain. If it pops out again, best to find out in this game rather than in the first final and play with a player down.
 

spotthedog1

Club Legend
Nov 13, 2011
2,176
3,222
Brisbane
AFL Club
Brisbane Lions
It wasn't the worst conditions. It allowed us to play Oscar as a marking target which was invaluable. It's a myth that talls shouldn't play in the wet. It's the smaller players who rely on speed and skill which struggle in the wet.
I'm not sure that I've ever heard any football player or coach suggest that...

Rucks perhaps less so, but it's fairly well accepted that in slippery conditions it is harder to mark the ball. This makes the ball hit the ground more regularly. So your taller players (generally the big marking players) are less effective, and players who are good below their knees (generally smaller players) are more relied on.
 

jackess

Hall of Famer
Aug 10, 2005
39,881
34,764
AFL Club
Brisbane Lions
I'm not sure that I've ever heard any football player or coach suggest that...

Rucks perhaps less so, but it's fairly well accepted that in slippery conditions it is harder to mark the ball. This makes the ball hit the ground more regularly. So your taller players (generally the big marking players) are less effective, and players who are good below their knees (generally smaller players) are more relied on.
Well most coaches don’t go small in bad weather so there’s your proof.

Might be harder to mark but it’s still easy to spoil. In a territory game you can’t afford kicks being spoiled 30m the wrong way and given it’s harder to run and link up by hands or spot up leads you therefore kick more to packs. So having a tall to at least bring it to ground to allow you to force a ball up or get it forward is a necessity.
 

Gibbo_88

Premiership Player
Jan 19, 2009
4,220
2,064
Brisbane
AFL Club
Brisbane Lions
Lyons on the roar deal podcast was asked about Oscar and he was highly complimentary of both Oscar and Archie. Rates Archies work. Figure his opinion is worth listening too.

Also said he loves wet weather footy when the speed drops he comes into his best.
Yeah, I thought Archie had been looking ok. He's a target for most on here, just like Mcstay.
 

Dlions

Premium Platinum
Aug 12, 2016
8,852
10,810
AFL Club
Brisbane Lions
Yeah, I thought Archie had been looking ok. He's a target for most on here, just like Mcstay.
I thought the game he played against Sydney was his best so far this year, but it was against weaker Ruck opposition, so won’t read too much into it.
 

spotthedog1

Club Legend
Nov 13, 2011
2,176
3,222
Brisbane
AFL Club
Brisbane Lions
Well most coaches don’t go small in bad weather so there’s your proof.

Might be harder to mark but it’s still easy to spoil. In a territory game you can’t afford kicks being spoiled 30m the wrong way and given it’s harder to run and link up by hands or spot up leads you therefore kick more to packs. So having a tall to at least bring it to ground to allow you to force a ball up or get it forward is a necessity.
? Coaches wouldn't drop all of their talls. They still need to compete. But there have been a few times where I've seen late outs of a tall for a small to go from a 3-tall setup to a 2-tall setup forward of the ball.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top Bottom