News Brodie Smith signs three year contract extension

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Vhaluus

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All well and good saying "oh we should be targeting future stars" but don't let your brain fall out of your ears. We're nowhere near that stage, and we won't be in a position to be attractive until 2022-2023 at the earliest.
You are misquoting me, I said we should be investing in OUR future stars.

You know, the ones we're taking with our early draft picks and are going to be the core of any future premiership success?
 

Golumless

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Again, paying vets that aren't core is the WORST way to spend cap during a rebuild.

You front load contracts of the young players who are going to be part of your core group for your next premiership.
Completely wrong. The worst way to spend is spread it evenly in the part of your team who will both not be apart of that core, and are young enough to find a place as a role player post rebuild. A part of this is unavoidable, due to investing in youth and sometimes injuries happen/development stalls out. Some examples on our list now are players like Keays, Murphy, Butts, McAdam, Kelly, McPherson who would be a terrible idea to pay good money too and there are a few I listed there who have a very good shot of being here even at the height of a successful rebuild (Butts and McPherson in particular could feasibly have a spot in a premiership team here 7-11 years down the line). Rebuilds live and die on making sure this group is paid as little as possible.

At the start point of a rebuild (1-2 years in) you do not have enough youth that you can be confident will be a part of your core group, and you need to be very choosy as to who to invest, otherwise you end up in the situation I mentioned above. The league also doesn't allow teams to go too far below the cap, so you need to be doing two things. Keeping a growing core and guaranteeing money is freed up at the points you are planning to push out of the rebuild stage, with the earlier you can guarantee that money being freed up, the better (after all, you have the luxury of going harder at your target for longer if you know that money is there 2 years out instead of 1). The ability to structure contracts and a low demand for money at this point (due to a lack of good players) means we can pay the future core above average rates now to keep them in their formative years. Paying veterans gives us an easy way to make sure the money we need to both keep our core once they're hitting their peak and get in the final touches is freed up when we're pushing out of it; that money needs to be spent somewhere and it's a much more difficult job to free it up from 4 players instead of 1 down the line.

Sacrificing a part of your cap to paying veterans is not only viable, it's vital to the success of a rebuild in the world of strict salary caps. Much like paying youth though, it completely depends on you not going too crazy with it, and letting it become a detriment.
 
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Golumless

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You are misquoting me, I said we should be investing in OUR future stars.

You know, the ones we're taking with our early draft picks and are going to be the core of any future premiership success?
To be blunt, there isn't that many of them at this point of time that this is a problem and some of them are already locked up (whether they get to being stars is another question entirely, especially with Jones and Milera).

At our best case scenario, there are four players that become urgent to sign in 2021 (Thilthorpe, McAsey, Schoenberg and Fogarty) and there is a lot of cap space free to deal with this problem with money spent in between 2022-2025.


Edit: Sholl and Hamill are potentially 2022 problems. Fogarty and Schoenberg are 2021 problems. A much nicer group for this year.
 
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Vhaluus

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Completely wrong. The worst way to spend is spread it evenly in the part of your team who will both not be apart of that core, and are young enough to find a place as a role player post rebuild. A part of this is unavoidable, due to investing in youth and sometimes injuries happen/development stalls out. Some examples on our list now are players like Keays, Murphy, Butts, McAdam, Kelly, McPherson who would be a terrible idea to pay good money too and there are a few I listed there who have a very good shot of being here even at the height of a successful rebuild (Butts and McPherson in particular could feasibly have a spot in a premiership team here 7-11 years down the line). Rebuilds live and die on making sure this group is paid as little as possible.

At the start point of a rebuild (1-2 years in) you do not have enough youth that you can be confident will be a part of your core group, and you need to be very choosy as to who to invest, otherwise you end up in the situation I mentioned above. The league also doesn't allow teams to go too far below the cap, so you need to be doing two things. Keeping a growing core and guaranteeing money is freed up at the points you are planning to push out of the rebuild stage, with the earlier you can guarantee that money being freed up, the better (after all, you have the luxury of going harder at your target for longer if you know that money is there 2 years out instead of 1). The ability to structure contracts and a low demand for money at this point (due to a lack of good players) means we can pay the future core above average rates now to keep them in their formative years. Paying veterans gives us an easy way to make sure the money we need to both keep our core once they're hitting their peak and get in the final touches is freed up when we're pushing out of it; that money needs to be spent somewhere and it's a much more difficult job to free it up from 4 players instead of 1 down the line.

Sacrificing a part of your cap to paying veterans is not only viable, it's vital to the success of a rebuild in the world of strict salary caps. Much like paying youth though, it completely depends on you not going too crazy with it, and letting it become a detriment.
You only need so many veterans to mentor youth and we have plenty of them given the age profile of our list. The same bullshit mentoring line gets trotted out for every single one of these guys.

Also note I said the contracts for those young players should be front loaded. If they're front loaded it becomes much less important that they become a hit; Even if only 2/3rds of them end up being part of your next core you're still well ahead of where you would have been if you scramble to lock them down later.
 

Vhaluus

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To be blunt, there isn't that many of them at this point of time that this is a problem and some of them are already locked up (whether they get to being stars is another question entirely, especially with Jones and Milera).

At our best case scenario, there are four players that become urgent to sign in 2021 (Thilthorpe, McAsey, Schoenberg and Fogarty) and there is a lot of cap space free to deal with this problem with money spent in between 2022-2025.


Edit: Sholl and Hamill are potentially 2022 problems. Fogarty and Schoenberg are 2021 problems. A much nicer group for this year.
You keep confidently stating we have so much free cap space, but that is purely your assumption and not at all supported by the evidence when we had board members saying we were hitting our maximum cap last year and haven't really lost that much in far of players on our books between last year and this year.
 

BronCrow

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Laird and Matt Crouch are both:

1)younger
2)more important players
3)Better players
4)In positions we have less of an abundance of young talent in.

I fully support longer contracts for both those players you mention.

Smith I'd be happy to let go for the 3rd round compensation pick we'd likely get from free agency for him. Gives us a chance to reinvest in youth and gives our existing young players that are competing for the same spot a chance to learn at the top level.
1) Can’t argue, both are younger, Laird only by a year though.
2) Think Smithers is every bit as important as Laird, and more important than Matt Crouch.
3) Laird at his best is every bit as good, don’t agree with you on Crouch.
4) Don’t completely disagree with you that we have less options in that area. Would rather young guys like Schoenberg, Pedlar, Berry, Hateley, Cook and O’Connor were getting games ahead of Matt Crouch though. Especially if we have a similar year to last year, which I think we will.

I could live with losing Smithers for a first or second round pick compensation, though would prefer to keep him. Would be unhappy if we only got a third for him though. Would rather keep Smithers than Crouch though. Crouch is a poor user and decision maker with the ball and is as slow as treacle. Opposition teams are quite happy for him to get the footy as much as he does.


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Vhaluus

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1) Can’t argue, both are younger, Laird only by a year though.
2) Think Smithers is every bit as important as Laird, and more important than Matt Crouch.
3) Laird at his best is every bit as good, don’t agree with you on Crouch.
4) Don’t completely disagree with you that we have less options in that area. Would rather young guys like Schoenberg, Pedlar, Berry, Hateley, Cook and O’Connor were getting games ahead of Matt Crouch though. Especially if we have a similar year to last year, which I think we will.

I could live with losing Smithers for a first or second round pick compensation, though would prefer to keep him. Would be unhappy if we only got a third for him though. Would rather keep Smithers than Crouch though. Crouch is a poor user and decision maker with the ball and is as slow as treacle. Opposition teams are quite happy for him to get the footy as much as he does.


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In one world is a half back flanker who has repeatedly failed in the midfield more important than our best inside mid?
 

Geoffa32

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The last time we loaded up on Firepower, it didn't end well.
Has anything been said about the correlation between the individuals who invested in that scam, and the key roles they have had in the downfall of our club...

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jackster83

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Has anything been said about the correlation between the individuals who invested in that scam, and the key roles they have had in the downfall of our club...

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It's no surprise that they also went all in on Kangatech and Collective Minds.

"I've sold monorails to Brockway, Ogdenville and North Haverbrook..."
 

BronCrow

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In one world is a half back flanker who has repeatedly failed in the midfield more important than our best inside mid?
The world where that half back flanker who has supposedly repeatedly failed in the midfield is a hell of a lot more damaging by both hand and foot. I know who the opposition would rather have 25 possessions per game.

The fact that Matt Crouch is our best inside mid is a sign of how devoid of talent and depth we are in that area.


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Vhaluus

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The world where that half back flanker who has supposedly repeatedly failed in the midfield is a hell of a lot more damaging by both hand and foot. I know who the opposition would rather have 25 possessions per game.

The fact that Matt Crouch is our best inside mid is a sign of how devoid of talent and depth we are in that area.


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If he lacks so much damage why exactly is he a former All Australian who consistently polls Brownlow votes?
 

BronCrow

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If he lacks so much damage why exactly is he a former All Australian who consistently polls Brownlow votes?
Frankly it is one life’s great mystery’s. Shows how much that those people that make those decisions overrate possessions and underrate his many flaws as much as anything.


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1970crow

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So is this going to be the next player who breaks down and ends up collecting a paycheck to either sit on the injury list or play SANFL?

I hope not but frankly this contract is poor list management on display yet again.
Bit OTT, Smith risk for final year is slim. This is unlikely to be a bad contract extension.
 

Vhaluus

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Sorry for having a differing opinion to yours.

As an aside, I notice that Matt Crouch has been nominated an All-Australian once, like Brodie Smith.


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Brodie smith is an absolutely quality player, I won't disagree with that at all. I've loved watching him play.

But he is not an essential player by virtue of his age, his position and the number of other players we have who can play that position.

Matt crouch and Rory Laird are essential players.
 

Vhaluus

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It's no surprise that they also went all in on Kangatech and Collective Minds.

"I've sold monorails to Brockway, Ogdenville and North Haverbrook..."
Careful insulting Kangatech around here.

Some people are bizarrely defensive of it around here.
 

Vhaluus

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Bit OTT, Smith risk for final year is slim. This is unlikely to be a bad contract extension.
Most players show a noticeable drop off in performance even only a year or two into their 30's.

Smith might buck that trend, but I just don't see why we take that gamble when we don't have to. Even if it's only a 20% chance he's going to drop off significantly (I suspect the chance is a bit higher than that) there was just no pressing reason to take that risk on.
 

BronCrow

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Brodie smith is an absolutely quality player, I won't disagree with that at all. I've loved watching him play.

But he is not an essential player by virtue of his age, his position and the number of other players we have who can play that position.

Matt crouch and Rory Laird are essential players.
Frankly, if we ever intend to contend in the future, then Matt Crouch is not your man. He IMO is not essential. Won’t argue with you on Laird. Has helped Rory immensely moving him into the midfield.

Also, how many more games would we win if Matt Crouch was in the side compared to if he wasn’t?

Lastly, if we were to go along with your way of thinking that Matt Crouch is more valuable than what Smithers is, then surely he is worth more in FA. He is also possibly more likely to want to move than the other 2 after Brad’s departure.


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Vhaluus

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Frankly, if we ever intend to contend in the future, then Matt Crouch is not your man. He IMO is not essential. Won’t argue with you on Laird. Has helped Rory immensely moving him into the midfield.

Also, how many more games would we win if Matt Crouch was in the side compared to if he wasn’t?

Lastly, if we were to go along with your way of thinking that Matt Crouch is more valuable than what Smithers is, then surely he is worth more in FA. He is also possibly more likely to want to move than the other 2 after Brad’s departure.


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If Matt Crouch was ruled out next year we'd struggle to win a single game.

He was the only player to be listed in the best players for all 3 of our wins last year.

He is an absolute quality footballer and to say otherwise is outright absurd.
 

Mutineer

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Frankly, if we ever intend to contend in the future, then Matt Crouch is not your man. He IMO is not essential. Won’t argue with you on Laird. Has helped Rory immensely moving him into the midfield.

Also, how many more games would we win if Matt Crouch was in the side compared to if he wasn’t?

Lastly, if we were to go along with your way of thinking that Matt Crouch is more valuable than what Smithers is, then surely he is worth more in FA. He is also possibly more likely to want to move than the other 2 after Brad’s departure.


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BronCrow

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If Matt Crouch was ruled out next year we'd struggle to win a single game.

He was the only player to be listed in the best players for all 3 of our wins last year.
We will struggle to win too many games again with him.

If he is the only player to have been in the bests for all three of our wins, then he is our most tradable asset.

Frankly, I think a late first to and early to mid second round pick for him is more valuable to us than a third round pick for Smithers.

Also, how long would you expect, or be comfortable with the club to trying to re-sign Matt for?


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BronCrow

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