Brownlow 2020

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Yojimbo

Brownlow Medallist
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And as I’ve posted numerous times: in the years before the 1990s (when the commentariat started writing the AFL’s agenda) you could get still 3 votes when your team lost if you were in fact the fairest and best on the ground.
Commentariat i like that dog-watch, it has shifted of late and it's not very rewarding, space is not the final frontier anymore.
 

Boyd oh Boyd

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And as I’ve posted numerous times: in the years before the 1990s (when the commentariat started writing the AFL’s agenda) you could get still 3 votes when your team lost if you were in fact the fairest and best on the ground.
We seldom see the good players in struggling teams getting recognised like that now. A Bobby Skilton wouldn’t win 3 Brownlow Medals if he played for a bottom team in the 2020s. He did in the 60s.
Fyfe last year was pretty close. 17 votes from 8 wins (5 bogs), 16 votes from 12 losses (4 bogs).
 

dogwatch

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Fyfe last year was pretty close. 17 votes from 8 wins (5 bogs), 16 votes from 12 losses (4 bogs).
Good point. There are some exceptions.

But the idiocy of the thinking is in the frequent rationale: "well I'll admit that <player x> played a fantastic game but you have to give it to the winning side so I'll give <player y> the 3 votes".

I mean, seriously, is it meant to be best-on-ground or best-on-ground-for-the-winning-side?
 

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Dogs_R_Us

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I remember "back in the day" Scott West had, like, 40* possessions and got 0 votes. When asked why, later, the umpire said "I didn't notice him." :think: :oops: :drunk:

I think he bleached his hair the following season...

* a lot anyway
 

grassman75

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The other one is Bont to poll most votes in last 8? rounds
I remember "back in the day" Scott West had, like, 40* possessions and got 0 votes. When asked why, later, the umpire said "I didn't notice him." :think: :oops: :drunk:

I think he bleached his hair the following season...

* a lot anyway
I remember the day when Scott West lost a Brownlow to Shane Woewoeful because an umpire didn't like him, so he gave the votes to Woeful instead
 

Dogs_R_Us

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The other one is Bont to poll most votes in last 8? rounds


I remember the day when Scott West lost a Brownlow to Shane Woewoeful because an umpire didn't like him, so he gave the votes to Woeful instead
Was that before or after the Brownlow became blatantly rigged like it is today and everyone knows the result weeks before the end of the season? The commentators give the votes at the end of the game, ffs.
 

grassman75

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Funny how the first 4 in betting were the first 4 on the night. I used to love a decent bet on the medal but it really isnt worth it anymore unless you outlay before round 1 on a speculator - you might get 30/1 - I had a lash at Libba to poll in top 20 last night and he got 2 friggin votes. It's all bullshit
 

dogwatch

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Funny how the first 4 in betting were the first 4 on the night. I used to love a decent bet on the medal but it really isnt worth it anymore unless you outlay before round 1 on a speculator - you might get 30/1 - I had a lash at Libba to poll in top 20 last night and he got 2 friggin votes. It's all bullshit
Consider the possibility of betting on the NRL equivalent - the Dally M. Well actually you couldn't bet on it in 2020 because of what happened last year. Just as well, as it turned out ...
Punters looking to wager on the 2020 Dally M Medal will be unable to after all Australian bookmakers suspended betting on the popular market.

Punters looking to wager on the Dally M Medal were greeted with a message stating that "Due to governing body regulations, Dally M Markets will no longer be offered for the 2020 season."

The news comes after the NRL integrity unit launched an investigation into suspicious betting fluctuations before last year’s Dally M awards. This forced the bookmakers to suspend all betting on the individual award and refund punters thousands of dollars that they had invested.

Punters reported at least one bookmaker drastically shortened the price on the trifecta option of James Tedesco, Cameron Smith and Mitchell Moses in the days before the Dally M ceremony.

The market was officially closed only hours before Sydney Roosters fullback Tedesco pipped Smith and Paramatta’s Moses for his first Dally M Medal, crowned at the Hordern Pavilion.

It’s the latest twist in the ongoing betting scandal from last year’s awards, which has already led to police charges against two men who were NRL contractors running the technology platform which compiled votes for four awards categories.
So do you want to know what happened this year?

Well, the Daily Telegraph has just "accidentally" published the winner's name several hours before the "count".

FMD. How dodgy is it that?
 

Yojimbo

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Consider the possibility of betting on the NRL equivalent - the Dally M. Well actually you couldn't bet on it in 2020 because of what happened last year. Just as well, as it turned out ...
I would have thought the leaking of Christain Petracca as the winner led to many bets and may have been leaked by a betting agency.

Oh and dog-watch the "Rising Star" deserves a serve for it's Orwellian group think, group speak effort in agreeing Matt Rowell's season should be ignored and he should garner no votes the "Brownlow Medal" made them look like fools. Amazing what a couple of 2 votes and 1 votes could have saved in terms of embarrassment.
 

Dogs_R_Us

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I would have thought the leaking of Christain Petracca as the winner led to many bets and may have been leaked by a betting agency.

Oh and dog-watch the "Rising Star" deserves a serve for it's Orwellian group think, group speak effort in agreeing Matt Rowell's season should be ignored and he should garner no votes the "Brownlow Medal" made them look like fools. Amazing what a couple of 2 votes and 1 votes could have saved in terms of embarrassment.
I didn't hear about Petracca - fair dinkum? Is the Integrity (and I use the term loosely) Unit investigating? Or mustn't we offend a major sponsor? Same happening in the NRL. Betting on sport is a cancer, but like cancer not easily cured.

As for the Rising Star, GOTY and MOTY, along with the Brownlow, they are all deeply flawed. But I don't know what the answer is.
 

bobs head soup

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I didn't hear about Petracca - fair dinkum? Is the Integrity (and I use the term loosely) Unit investigating? Or mustn't we offend a major sponsor? Same happening in the NRL. Betting on sport is a cancer, but like cancer not easily cured.

As for the Rising Star, GOTY and MOTY, along with the Brownlow, they are all deeply flawed. But I don't know what the answer is.
I think the answer is to accept that they are all fairly irnconsequential pieces of fluff that don't do any harm as long as they aren't taken too seriously.
 

dogwatch

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I would have thought the leaking of Christain Petracca as the winner led to many bets and may have been leaked by a betting agency.

Oh and dog-watch the "Rising Star" deserves a serve for it's Orwellian group think, group speak effort in agreeing Matt Rowell's season should be ignored and he should garner no votes the "Brownlow Medal" made them look like fools. Amazing what a couple of 2 votes and 1 votes could have saved in terms of embarrassment.
In terms of an invitation to corruption, allowing betting on the Brownlow is pretty bad but the Rising Star is something else again. It is determined in one sitting by a panel of "experts" after all the bets have been placed. At least I assume that's still how they do it. That's just staggeringly bad. I don't know what their actual rationale is (assuming they have one) but it has the appearance of wilful blindness to risk.

I imagine most if not all of the commentators who vote are trying to do an honest job most or all of the time (KB's refusal to vote for Ryan Griffen notwithstanding) but one day it's going to blow up in the AFL's face and it'll be very messy.
 

dogwatch

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I think the answer is to accept that they are all fairly irnconsequential pieces of fluff that don't do any harm as long as they aren't taken too seriously.
That's fine. They ARE pieces of fluff designed to promote the game and its sponsors.

But what about the betting that is allowed on these things? That's a different and serious matter.
 

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bobs head soup

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That's fine. They ARE pieces of fluff designed to promote the game and its sponsors.

But what about the betting that is allowed on these things? That's a different and serious matter.
You are right but betting agencies bet on entertainment awards, manufactured reality shows, hottest 100, politics, weather patterns and just about anything else you can think of. In cricket they bet on the outcome of every individual ball.

If they didn't bet on AFL awards, not sure what changes?

The potential for corruption on actual matches (particularly margins and events such as first goalkicker) is far more worrying than potential to corrupt largely irrelevant awards.
 

Yojimbo

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Western Bulldogs (Team Votes) = 61 x Votes
Western Bulldogs (Midfield Votes) = 48 x Votes
Western Bulldogs (Forward Votes) = 8 x Votes
Western Bulldogs (Defensive Votes) = 5 x Votes

Geelong (Team Votes) = 64 x Votes
Geelong (Midfield Votes) = 44 x Votes
Geelong (Forward Votes) = 18 x Votes
Geelong (Defensive Votes) = 2 x Votes

Richmond (Team Votes) = 56 x Votes
Richmond (Midfield Votes) = 42 x Votes
Richmond (Forward Votes) = 2 x Votes
Richmond (Defensive Votes) = 12 x Votes

So what does it all mean ? Do we consider Dangerfield and Martin midfielders or do we consider them forwards ? This is one of life's big questions along with the classification of Shai Bolton as in fact that did change in direct relation to the availability of Shane Edwards. In reality for the Bulldogs it highlights three great individual games for three forwards, Bruce , Naughton and Wallis and a reliance on the midfield to exert control over a game and keep it from spilling to the outside to quickly as to expose our defense to one on one contests. Does the Brownlow Medal actually present a microcosm of the ills of the modern game or is it just an award voted on by people in brightly colored garb. Lachie Neale was a rightful winner, but in my mind received too many votes 23-25 was more in the realms of reality, but Brisbane were 18th ranked in my disposal vector, nee matrix (There is no Vector movie CM).
 

dogwatch

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Western Bulldogs (Team Votes) = 61 x Votes
Western Bulldogs (Midfield Votes) = 48 x Votes
Western Bulldogs (Forward Votes) = 8 x Votes
Western Bulldogs (Defensive Votes) = 5 x Votes

Geelong (Team Votes) = 64 x Votes
Geelong (Midfield Votes) = 44 x Votes
Geelong (Forward Votes) = 18 x Votes
Geelong (Defensive Votes) = 2 x Votes

Richmond (Team Votes) = 56 x Votes
Richmond (Midfield Votes) = 42 x Votes
Richmond (Forward Votes) = 2 x Votes
Richmond (Defensive Votes) = 12 x Votes

So what does it all mean ? Do we consider Dangerfield and Martin midfielders or do we consider them forwards ? This is one of life's big questions along with the classification of Shai Bolton as in fact that did change in direct relation to the availability of Shane Edwards. In reality for the Bulldogs it highlights three great individual games for three forwards, Bruce , Naughton and Wallis and a reliance on the midfield to exert control over a game and keep it from spilling to the outside to quickly as to expose our defense to one on one contests. Does the Brownlow Medal actually present a microcosm of the ills of the modern game or is it just an award voted on by people in brightly colored garb. Lachie Neale was a rightful winner, but in my mind received too many votes 23-25 was more in the realms of reality, but Brisbane were 18th ranked in my disposal vector, nee matrix (There is no Vector movie CM).
So the conclusion to be drawn is probably one of these two:
1. The best players end up in the midfield. The crap players end up in defence.
2. The system has an in-built bias toward midfielders. Defenders get almost totally ignored unless they are spectacular and/or high possession getters/interceptors (even Daniel, an All-Australian, only got 3 votes). Forwards get votes when they kick a bag but otherwise they too are systemically ignored.

My money is firmly on #2.
 

Hoges64

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So the conclusion to be drawn is probably one of these two:
1. The best players end up in the midfield. The crap players end up in defence.
2. The system has an in-built bias toward midfielders. Defenders get almost totally ignored unless they are spectacular and/or high possession getters/interceptors (even Daniel, an All-Australian, only got 3 votes). Forwards get votes when they kick a bag but otherwise they too are systemically ignored.

My money is firmly on #2.
The All-Australian back 6 finished 5th on Brownlow night.

If you wanted to be generous and say the "back 7" with Caleb rotating through there, you'd get 2nd by a single vote.

The system, she is broke.
 

grassman75

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I didn't hear about Petracca - fair dinkum? Is the Integrity (and I use the term loosely) Unit investigating? Or mustn't we offend a major sponsor? Same happening in the NRL. Betting on sport is a cancer, but like cancer not easily cured.

As for the Rising Star, GOTY and MOTY, along with the Brownlow, they are all deeply flawed. But I don't know what the answer is.
Brownlow should be the coaches votes and they should be kept secret - they know which players were best each game
 

grassman75

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In terms of an invitation to corruption, allowing betting on the Brownlow is pretty bad but the Rising Star is something else again. It is determined in one sitting by a panel of "experts" after all the bets have been placed. At least I assume that's still how they do it. That's just staggeringly bad. I don't know what their actual rationale is (assuming they have one) but it has the appearance of wilful blindness to risk.

I imagine most if not all of the commentators who vote are trying to do an honest job most or all of the time (KB's refusal to vote for Ryan Griffen notwithstanding) but one day it's going to blow up in the AFL's face and it'll be very messy.
It almost did with David King and Whoey Taylor
 

Yojimbo

Brownlow Medallist
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My money is firmly on #2.
You could be on a winner, but it does also point to Richmond's confluence of ball movement being further back in a positional sense than the other two mentioned teams. Brad Hardie and Gavin Wanganeen would probably not get close to winning these days.
 

Some Idiot

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Was that before or after the Brownlow became blatantly rigged like it is today and everyone knows the result weeks before the end of the season? The commentators give the votes at the end of the game, ffs.
I can never tell if people are joking, but Fyfe was a few spots far off the pace last year according to the media, but the umpires loved him and we was a runaway winner, the unpredictability of the bronwlow is one of the things I enjoy, being out on the field gives the umpires a very different perspective on the game compared to media and fans.
 

Jeff 1975

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It seems its takes 3 or 4 years for the umpires to notice all players
Slightly deferent now because of the ruck nominations
However for years we were Footscray / Bulldog player
 

Jeff 1975

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You could be on a winner, but it does also point to Richmond's confluence of ball movement being further back in a positional sense than the other two mentioned teams. Brad Hardie and Gavin Wanganeen would probably not get close to winning these days.

Good point

Might be waving a red flag here
IMO Wanganeen would have had the least amount of disposals ever
Might be wrong?
 

Yojimbo

Brownlow Medallist
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Good point

Might be waving a red flag here
IMO Wanganeen would have had the least amount of disposals ever
Might be wrong?
Wanganeen averaged 18.8 x Disposals in 1993 when he won with Eighteen votes, in 2003 with Port Adelaide he upped his disposal average to just over 21 which was his best year he polled twenty one votes that year.
 

HTPunter

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Brownlow should be the coaches votes and they should be kept secret - they know which players were best each game
People always say this acting as if the coaches don't have surprising winners, albeit still having similar top 5-10s to the Brownlow each year.

You have a hard time convincing me that the best player in 2011 was Marc Murphy, 2013 Scott Pendlebury, 2014 Robbie Gray and 2015 Dan Hannebery.
I'd take Ablett 2013, Ablett, Buddy and Fyfe 2014, Fyfe and Mitchell 2015..
2011 is a fascinating year because Judd overwhelmingly won the players MVP (3x the votes of 2nd place Pendlebury), players best captain, and polled 23 votes to Murphys 19, and got a midfield spot in the AA team while Murphy was on a flank, yet Murphy won the B&F easily and coaches award by 4 votes...so really the assistant coaches at Carlton were probably the most responsible for that big win in the B&F and everyone else agreed it was Judd.

Everyone who criticizes the Brownlow for being voted on by the umps and says the coaches and players award is better doesn't ever seem to actually look into the claim.

The one year they probably genuinely nailed it over the Brownlow was in 2018 with Max Gawn, compared to the best mid in Tom Mitchell winning the Brownlow.
 

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