Brownlow votes - how can we improve its validity?

Yojimbo

Norm Smith Medallist
Nov 14, 2012
8,771
7,466
AFL Club
Western Bulldogs
The player mentioned, grabbed Kickett by the family jewels.

Kickett made it plain to his opponent, that was not on. Footy supporters agreed with Kickett’s retaliation, Gepp went on to be a “behind the scenes” toecutter.
That's nasty, so no "Fairest" component and Kickett wins the Sandover Medal maybe he should have got two
medals one for each knacker, another bonus is the MRP does not have to find ways of getting the big names
off at the tribunal so they are still eligible.
 

John Who

Norm Smith Medallist
Apr 16, 2017
6,356
4,371
AFL Club
Adelaide
Here’s an interesting thought exercise. Who would you prefer to pick as a best player in a match in the winning team if:
A. A defender who had 2 disposals, no marks, 12 spoils; his opponent had 0 goals, 0 assists

B. A forward who kicked 8 goals, 4 goal assists, 20 disposals, 14 marks; his opponent had 5 disposals, 2 marks

C. A midfielder with 59 disposals, 9 tackles, 8 marks; his opponent has 53 disposals 7 tackles, 7 marks

I think this is the problem with the Brownlow voting in a nutshell - players get votes for the stats they provide, not on the relative dominance over their direct opponents.
In some games, a forward/defender can be totally dominant against their opponents, yet may not even get 1 vote in the Brownlow.
 

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Evolved1

Club Legend
Jun 14, 2013
1,052
906
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Essendon
Take it off the umpires

It really doesnt register for me the way it is now - it quite literally is a midfielders medal - wayne carey should have a couple round his neck

it literally ignores champion players if they arent midfielders
We already have the Leigh Matthews trophy and coaches association awards.
 

Maylandsman

🏆🏆🐯EAT ‘EM ALIVE🐯🏆🏆
Oct 22, 2017
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As soon as the umpires leave the ground they should be separated to do their own individual 3-2-1 with no access to any stats or commentary.
then they get together and hand in the 3 cards with a simple add up to achieve the votes.
they are currently interfered by stats and commentary.
100% agree. To much influence from outside noises. I would even like to see the three umpire votes count towards Player totals. That would spice things up.
 

Goomba1973

Senior List
Aug 13, 2018
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A combined approach.
The umpires need to have a vote as they see things the rest of us cannot ( some of the in and under work by the mids) , however they can also be limited to what they can see as the big picture is hard to see from ground level.

Umpire Votes and Reps from the AFL ( Ex players or something like that also having votes). Combine the Umpires votes ( coal face view ) with the reps votes (big picture view) and we might get a more widespread view on who gets votes.
 

Wallaby

Norm Smith Medallist
May 8, 2007
8,770
10,229
AFL Club
Richmond
To improve Brownlow credibility, how about recognising and emphasising that:

1. The umpires are by definition the most neutral observers of the game (except, of course, they're all biased against my team:D).
2. Every other commentator, expert, coach, whoever - will be tainted with a 'bias' tag. Whether it's their current or previous team, or whether it's the ex-full forward whinging that KPFs don't get enough recognition - their views will be ridiculed by many 'Because........'.
3. The umpires have a unique view of the game - also the closest. They probably see more of the actual game than anyone else - sure, they don't get the view from Row QQ in the top deck of the grandstand, but that has its own set of problems.
4. The umpires vote after each and every game. None of this american MVP-bullsh!t, where voters have tend to focus on who played well amongst the league leaders in the last few weeks of the season. A game in Rd 1 is worth 4 points - as is a game in Rd 22. Every game has the same intrinsic value. Every game has a best player. And the umpires choose it then - without any 'That was an important game!' retrospection.

That's why the Brownlow is better than any other MVP, League Best player, B&F award there is.

Now I'm quite prepared to listen to arguments that '3-2-1' is not the best possible voting system. That's a different discussion, with plenty of good ideas - from both sides. But provided the award is still
a) Voted on by the umpires and
b) Voted on immediately after every game

It's fine. Leave it alone.
 

NonPhixion

DevilFish
Mar 27, 2018
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To improve Brownlow credibility, how about recognising and emphasising that:

1. The umpires are by definition the most neutral observers of the game (except, of course, they're all biased against my team:D).
2. Every other commentator, expert, coach, whoever - will be tainted with a 'bias' tag. Whether it's their current or previous team, or whether it's the ex-full forward whinging that KPFs don't get enough recognition - their views will be ridiculed by many 'Because........'.
3. The umpires have a unique view of the game - also the closest. They probably see more of the actual game than anyone else - sure, they don't get the view from Row QQ in the top deck of the grandstand, but that has its own set of problems.
4. The umpires vote after each and every game. None of this american MVP-bullsh!t, where voters have tend to focus on who played well amongst the league leaders in the last few weeks of the season. A game in Rd 1 is worth 4 points - as is a game in Rd 22. Every game has the same intrinsic value. Every game has a best player. And the umpires choose it then - without any 'That was an important game!' retrospection.

That's why the Brownlow is better than any other MVP, League Best player, B&F award there is.

Now I'm quite prepared to listen to arguments that '3-2-1' is not the best possible voting system. That's a different discussion, with plenty of good ideas - from both sides. But provided the award is still
a) Voted on by the umpires and
b) Voted on immediately after every game

It's fine. Leave it alone.
I disagree. I believe the coaches are the most neutral observers of the game. They are coaches for a reason, they definitely understand the game better than umpires and pick up on every little play in the game. The game is too professional for coaches to have a 'bias' tag, Personally I give more credit to the coaches MVP rather than the brownlow
 

Do the Dew

All Australian
Feb 14, 2019
639
1,173
AFL Club
Richmond
Here’s an interesting thought exercise. Who would you prefer to pick as a best player in a match in the winning team if:
A. A defender who had 2 disposals, no marks, 12 spoils; his opponent had 0 goals, 0 assists

B. A forward who kicked 8 goals, 4 goal assists, 20 disposals, 14 marks; his opponent had 5 disposals, 2 marks

C. A midfielder with 59 disposals, 9 tackles, 8 marks; his opponent has 53 disposals 7 tackles, 7 marks

I think this is the problem with the Brownlow voting in a nutshell - players get votes for the stats they provide, not on the relative dominance over their direct opponents.
In some games, a forward/defender can be totally dominant against their opponents, yet may not even get 1 vote in the Brownlow.
Check out the player ratings for the 2019 grand final for our lock-down defenders.
Astbury - 7 - played mostly on Finlayson who didn't get near it
Grimes - 7 - played mostly on Cameron who didn't do much
Broad - 6 - played mostly on Himmelberg who didn't do much
Vlastuin/Houli - 8 - played as the interceptors for the above 3 lock-down defenders

Despite the fact that our backline kept the Giants to 3 goals (their lowest ever score) in a grand final, and the fact that their forward line is pretty potent (Cameron, Greene, Finlayson, Himmelberg), Astbury Grimes and Broad were viewed by the media (and likely the umpires) to have slightly above average games. Obviously our midfield really helped in reducing their inside 50s and clean ball going forward, but still, the weighting on stats and how people view that players game is ridiculous.

Most obvious example is the ultimate stat-padder and bemusing Brownlow winner, Tom Mitchell. 50 of his touches are worth 15 of Dusty's.
 

Belnakor

Brownlow Medallist
Apr 10, 2005
19,203
10,347
AFL Club
Fremantle
The reason midfielders win it is because the best players are in the midfield. That’s why Fyfe doesn’t play chf when easily could.
 

Belnakor

Brownlow Medallist
Apr 10, 2005
19,203
10,347
AFL Club
Fremantle
Pfft

What a load of rubbish.

The recent Brownlow winners have been better than the Coaches pets.
Good post and another point people should remember is the coach “looking after the player” like in grays win when his coach after game actually said he made sure he gave gray 5 so he would win the award !
 

John Who

Norm Smith Medallist
Apr 16, 2017
6,356
4,371
AFL Club
Adelaide
Check out the player ratings for the 2019 grand final for our lock-down defenders.
Astbury - 7 - played mostly on Finlayson who didn't get near it
Grimes - 7 - played mostly on Cameron who didn't do much
Broad - 6 - played mostly on Himmelberg who didn't do much
Vlastuin/Houli - 8 - played as the interceptors for the above 3 lock-down defenders

Despite the fact that our backline kept the Giants to 3 goals (their lowest ever score) in a grand final, and the fact that their forward line is pretty potent (Cameron, Greene, Finlayson, Himmelberg), Astbury Grimes and Broad were viewed by the media (and likely the umpires) to have slightly above average games. Obviously our midfield really helped in reducing their inside 50s and clean ball going forward, but still, the weighting on stats and how people view that players game is ridiculous.

Most obvious example is the ultimate stat-padder and bemusing Brownlow winner, Tom Mitchell. 50 of his touches are worth 15 of Dusty's.
Excellent post! Most footy purists understand that stats aren’t the be-all to vote for best players. It’s more about how they play within their roles and how damaging they are against their direct opponents. This is not the apparent weighting in a Brownlow voting system.
 

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Monument Hills

Club Legend
Dec 12, 2017
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Brownlow is obviously a midfielders medal. I have no problem with that or how it is voted on by the umps, the least (note I didn't say non-) biased people involved in the game.

Forwards have the Coleman.

I would think there is a place for a defenders medal though for those guys up back. Golden Fist-like. The Frawley Medal.
 

HairyO

Brownlow Medallist
Jul 13, 2015
20,151
21,228
AFL Club
Hawthorn
Check out the player ratings for the 2019 grand final for our lock-down defenders.
Astbury - 7 - played mostly on Finlayson who didn't get near it
Grimes - 7 - played mostly on Cameron who didn't do much
Broad - 6 - played mostly on Himmelberg who didn't do much
Vlastuin/Houli - 8 - played as the interceptors for the above 3 lock-down defenders

Despite the fact that our backline kept the Giants to 3 goals (their lowest ever score) in a grand final, and the fact that their forward line is pretty potent (Cameron, Greene, Finlayson, Himmelberg), Astbury Grimes and Broad were viewed by the media (and likely the umpires) to have slightly above average games. Obviously our midfield really helped in reducing their inside 50s and clean ball going forward, but still, the weighting on stats and how people view that players game is ridiculous.

Most obvious example is the ultimate stat-padder and bemusing Brownlow winner, Tom Mitchell. 50 of his touches are worth 15 of Dusty's.
I agree. It shits me that not enough people recognise how incredibly awesome Richmond are.

Probably the greatest sporting franchise ever.
 

HairyO

Brownlow Medallist
Jul 13, 2015
20,151
21,228
AFL Club
Hawthorn
Nice melt.

Just completely disregard my point that defenders consistently get left behind in the awards in lieu of guys who rack up meaningless touches like Mitchell.


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Yes. Meaningless. Thats how to convince others you have any knowledge at all not worth mocking.

I assume Cotchin in 2012 was meaningless possessions?
 

Do the Dew

All Australian
Feb 14, 2019
639
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Richmond
Yes. Meaningless. Thats how to convince others you have any knowledge at all not worth mocking.

I assume Cotchin in 2012 was meaningless possessions?
Nice deflect. Again just avoid the original intent of the post.

I’m sure some of Cotchin’s possessions in 2012 were meaningless, particularly because he used to float around the half back line (same as Mitchell does for Hawthorn). I much prefer the current version of Cotchin, even if he gets far less touches, because his touches impact the game and he doesn’t need 30+ of them. He also sets the tone and relentlessly hunts and tackles opposition. Impact >> possies


On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app
 

HairyO

Brownlow Medallist
Jul 13, 2015
20,151
21,228
AFL Club
Hawthorn
Nice deflect. Again just avoid the original intent of the post.

I’m sure some of Cotchin’s possessions in 2012 were meaningless, particularly because he used to float around the half back line (same as Mitchell does for Hawthorn). I much prefer the current version of Cotchin, even if he gets far less touches, because his touches impact the game and he doesn’t need 30+ of them. He also sets the tone and relentlessly hunts and tackles opposition. Impact >> possies


On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app
Im sure they were all useless. Because look at where Richmond finished in 2012.

That is the argument for Mitchell.

And its moronic.
 

Do the Dew

All Australian
Feb 14, 2019
639
1,173
AFL Club
Richmond
Im sure they were all useless. Because look at where Richmond finished in 2012.

That is the argument for Mitchell.

And its moronic.
When did I mention Hawthorns ladder position in relation to Mitchell??

I’m just saying that stats and possessions don’t mean nearly as much as ppl make them out to, hence why I brought up the Richmond defenders grand final achievements and corresponding lack of recognition.


On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app
 

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