Brownlow votes?

[Cup-Half-Full]

Somebody asked for stats on James Hird and brownlows.

Career votes:

Hird____47
Carey___112

But stats don't tell the full story!

Carey lost a vote every time he mouthed off to the umpires.

Hird gained a vote every time he showered with the umpires.

Stats courtesy of the AFL web site (and some inside info).

Anymore questions Essendon fans?

 

[The Dutchman!]

Yep

How many completed seasons do these stats relate to?

How many games played head - head?

Carey has been playing for longer anyway and the three years out with injury didn't stop Hird.

You obviously have never done statistics or perhaps were watching Jerry Springer re-runs when they covered Qualitative methods...

All the best from the world of reality
Dutchy

PS. Tell you what stats boy, I urge you to make a comparision between them from 96 to 2000 inclusive. Even with three years out of the game I reckon Hird would still outvote the Brownlow King - by memory James had about 36-40 votes in two seasons - I would be very surprised if Carey went past 20 in 5 seasons.

 

[ptw]

think you are pissing into the wind with this one Dutchman.

Based on the above figures Hird averages 0.3615 votes per game or 1 vote every 2.76 games.

Carey averages 0.486 votes per game (130 & 230 games respectively) or 1 vote every 2.05 games.

IMHO, and I really couldn't give too much of a stuff about either of them, Carey is by far the better player.

Unfortunately for Jimmy a key element of this is actually making it onto the park. Hird's injuries may not be his fault but its a tough world. Carey averages 19 games per year...Hird averages 16.25. Hird is 2 years younger so may be able to close this gap a little but late in your career your averages won't change too much.

Qualitatively...for me there is only one measure. I would suggest that Carey single handedly wins twice as many games for North than Hird does for Essendon.

ptw

 

[The Dutchman!]

PTW

Fair comment all round - finally some sensible criticism (ie: no player is above this).

Mate, I take on board what you say but would add this:

1. Given the styles of game the two play and age difference I expect JH (provided the foot continues to not trouble him) to play at least three years after WC retire and by the end of that time their careers can be adequately assessed. That said, if Hird played no more footy as of know Carey would definitely shade him for impact and influence over time.

2. The only, I repeat only reason why Carey has won more games on his own that Hird has at Essendon is because he has had to. When we were pretty average in 94-96 this was when JH was doing this week in, week out and hence we threatened for a GF spot without real credentials. It is arguable that Carey has had to do this most of his career at North. I'm not saying they've lacked good players - I'm just saying he's had to carry a lot more passengers over the years than Hird. On the other hand, when he's been asked to carry a team Hird has shirked it either. The fact that he still dominates in such a great current lineup to testiment to how good JH is.

Reckon at the end of his career Hird could easily end up with 4+ premiership medals, 2 Norm Smiths, and 2+ Brownlows. But anything could happen in footy - he may not ever even play again.

Cheers
Dutchy

PS. The one to really watch is Kouta - he potentially has the ability to be the missing link between Hird and Carey and play all those roles - be great to see this happen so hopefully he gets his knee right before next season.

 

[ptw]

Dutchy

get this...

sitting down ?
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I agree.
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wow that wasn't so hard. Now...let me buy you a beer.

ptw

 

[The Dutchman!]

Not at all shocked PTW but thanks for the beer offer anyway. I'll take you up on it next time I'm in Adelaide which in truth won't be anytime soon given that I live in London and hail from Melbourne.

But its the thought that counts!

Don't want to get this wrong (so offence if I have) but you're a Port fan aren't you? How have they gone plugging holes in the forward line in the off season draft?

 

[ptw]

Dutchy

actually I am in KL, so don't go looking for that beer in Adelaide (apart from coopers its pretty crap anyway).

Yes I have one black eye, one white eye and one teal eye.

It is interesting. Port have not considered the forward line to be a problem, and have focussed in the last 2 years in fact on key defenders (Bishop from Mlb, Waiklin from St Kilda, Monts from WB although he was recruited as a fwd.

I would think that barring injuries ports fwd line would look like this (age, games)

HF Guerra (19,10) Tredrea (22,58) Schofield (25,102)
FF Cornes (21,27) Lockwood (22,46) C-Collins (25,99)

Average Age 22.3 Avg Games 57

Right now, this has to be the worst forward line in the comp, but rightly I think MAY....really big MAY....May be the best in the comp in 5 years time (see how Lockwood, Cornes, Tredrea progress).

The options for key forwards in the draft were probably Hewitt or Rocca. I am glad we didn't take Rocca, I think he would have improved the forward line, but perhaps ******ed the development of some of the younger players above.

Hewitt would not be bad, although we have a few young promising forwards so I am not sure what value this would have added.

Fom the draft we got Kane Cornes who is a good grab but has been playing down back...the rest were smaller players.

Am I happy ? Yes - so long as you stick with the strategy and let the kids develop, and don't do stupid things like sacking the coach just because you might get flogged every now and then. We are not Richmond

Any way....time will tell.

ptw

 

[Mr Ripper]

Cup-Half-Full noted:
Somebody asked for stats on James Hird and brownlows.

Career votes:

Hird____47
Carey___112

But stats don't tell the full story! rhubarb rhubarb rhubarb

Career Brownlows:

Hird____1
Carey___0

 

[CHF]

Originally posted by The Dutchman!:

PS. Tell you what stats boy, I urge you to make a comparision between them from 96 to 2000 inclusive. Even with three years out of the game I reckon Hird would still outvote the Brownlow King - by memory James had about 36-40 votes in two seasons - I would be very surprised if Carey went past 20 in 5 seasons.

Carey brownlow votes 1996-2000 inclusive.
1996 15
1997 03 (shoulder reco)
1998 20
1999 11
2000 14
total 63

What is your point?

If you took Hirds brownlow season out,
he has won about 26 votes in approx. 110 games (5 season worth)of football.

Wake up and smell the coffee!

Consistency,
Capacity to carrying injuries,
Prolonged excellence,
Actually getting on a football field,

are all attributes of true champions.
Hird = none of the above.

If Hird is that great why can't you back it up with concrete facts?

Regards,

Stats-boy (Cup_Half_Full).

 

[Michele]

.."that said, if Hird played no more footy as of know (sic) Carey would shade him...."

"Tell him son, he's dreaming!!!!

The shade just might be the size of Colonial's roof.

Remind me exactly how many times has J. Hird been selected for the All-Australian team and how many times has he been selected to Captain the All-Australian team.

Don't include 2000 because Carey, was chosen as Captain, then Buckley and THEN J. Hird.

You talk of injuries - at least I acknowledge Hird has had injuries, but so has Carey and the injuries have been far more debilitaing. Bummbers supporters cannot see past their noses.

Carey will never win a Brownlow, the umpires rarely pay him frees. Before you start whinging, those are FACTS supplied by stats at the seasons' end. Time and time again that issue has been brought up by the media.

There have been some excellent winners of the Brownlow and some very..well odd winners, particularly because it is the FAIREST and BEST. Not the best.
(Just think how many Brownlow's Carey would have won on that criteria!!!!!!!)

Barassi and Whitten, acknowledged legends of the game, neither player won a Brownlow or perhaps you think they were just plodders.

Michele

PS Hird should have had a good year, the reason being, he had NOT played for some time.

 

[Carey_is_King]

Michelle,
Add to your list of non-winning champions;
Royce Hart
Leigh Mathews (2nd best player ever)
Peter Knights
Peter Hudson
Peter McKenna
Kevin Bartlett
Darrell Baldock
Alex Jesaulenko
Phil Carman
Gary Wilson
John Murphy
and so the list goes on

Then look at some of the winners
Robert Dipierdomenico
Peter Moore
Brian Wilson
Scott Wynd
Tony Liberatore

My memory is failing me, but there are heaps more.



------------------
Trample the Weak,
Hurdle the Dead.

 

[Michele]

CiK,

It was Libba, Dipper and Lockett that were first in my thought.
Great players, especially Lockett (a champion) but not exactly Fairest and Best.

Michele

 

[The Dutchman!]

Ok folks

Just promise me... PROMISE ME... you Jimmy baiters will stay around on this forum for the next few years and not go anywhere.

Nothing like the quiet satisfaction that comes from knowing your right.....

 

[jod23]

Im so sick of this Carey Vs Hird thing. Who cares. Its a team game, Hird vs PA, Port would win. Carey vs Collinwooden, Pies would win. Its all about the team, there no I in team.

Carey and the Kangaroos 2 premeirships.
Hird and Essendon 1 Premeirship.

So i give the nod to Carey but thats only a matter of time probably.

Cheers

 

[The Dutchman!]

Completely agree Jod. It is a team game and this is a waste of everyone's time.

Those you know me here know that I have nothing but the utmost respect for what Carey has achieved on the footy field.

I just think the troll factor have got obsessed with the fact that because James Hird isn't exactly the same type of player as Wayne Carey he can't be a champion. That's like saying if you haven't won a brownlow you're not a champion. Luckily the press, the experts, the wider football community of course know that both these assertions are a pile of meaningless steaming turds!

Don't blame you for being of sick of it. Its a totally BS topic made up by people with nothing better to do but try to bring champions down... tall poppy syndrome at it best.

All the best
Dutch

PS. Actually Jod, that's Carey + Roos = 2 flags AND Hird + Dons = 2 flags... or does Hird have to be captain by your rationale?

 

[Mobbs]

Corey_Is_King ... also don't forget Paul Roos, unless you have a particular reason why he shouldn't have been mentioned.

Cheers from the ... umm ... hayseed?

 

[Carey_is_King]

Originally posted by Mobbenfuhrer:
Corey_Is_King ... also don't forget Paul Roos, unless you have a particular reason why he shouldn't have been mentioned.

Cheers from the ... umm ... hayseed?

Thanks, Hayseed, I agree. I did say my memory was failing, and I didn't have time to study the records. Actually, I think the year Peter Moore won it was the year Gary Wilson should have, so that was a double whammy. Pleased to see you here in the mainstream instead of worrying about the Cadabarrawirracanna thirds and their probably dubious history.



------------------
Trample the Weak,
Hurdle the Dead.

 

[Mobbs]

Carey_is_King :

I probably shouldn't bite, but ...

I have interest in country footy because :
a) I'm originally a bumpkin,
b) My country team lasted longer than my VFL/AFL team (Fitzroy) did,
c) My old man captained a country club to 3 country GF appearances (and 1 flag),
d) History of death in major league will always be preserved, not so the boondocks,
e) There are still terraces and standing room at country grounds, and
f) No element of footy, country or city, should ever be forgotten.

In footy, I have nothing but the past to look forward to. So be it.

 

[walshy1993]

i think this can all be sumed up in two simple words

PREMIERS TWO-THOUSAND

 

[jod23]

Dutch - yeah sorry forgot about 93.

Although my nod still goes to Carey but only just cos he was the captain and lead them there. But this could all change as Essendon are big favourites for next years premeirship. So this debate will just have to wait and the debate should be Ess vs North not Carey vs Hird.

Oh and North got 2 in 96 and 99 Ess got 2 in 93 and 2000. So what about the Crows in 97 and 98 and the Eagles in 92 and 94.

Its a team game not a one man gang.

Cheers for your comments Dutch.

 

[The Dutchman!]

No worries Jods