Opinion Building Nicely

["The Roar Is Back"]

The drugo's advantage are they are a group of slightly above battlers, although I'd take Big Nose for Conca .

 

[tigs2010]

That was why I said we were building nicely 2 months ago, looking at the side and depth chart now we're in a better position again.

Zaharakis - no risk of a drug ban
Hibberd - even with a 6 month ban he'd be handy to bring in for the second half of 2015.

Not sure Zaka can leave under the clause if he didn't shoot up. Hibberd would be a good get. Plus just him to rat on them to get off his ban.

 

[David3030]

Would have no trouble taking Heppell off their hands, has really stepped up this year.

 

[leekok]

Be interesting to see what happens with Darrou end of this year

It will hurt if another club picks him up, gives him some games and he can actually play at the top level. Not likely though.

 

[TJTIGER]

Good thread _RT_ as others have said, cheers for putting in the time.

 

[_RT_]

Thought it would be worth discussing this side with the back to back premiers side that played yesterday and see how we stack up.

Backs: Steve Morris 185cm 83kg 64 games 25 years old David Astbury 195cm 96kg 37 games 23 years old Troy Chaplin 195cm 99kg 185 games 28 years old

Half Backs: Dylan Grimes 193cm 88kg 45 games 23 years old Alex Rance 194cm 96kg 107 games 24 years old Bachar Houli 180cm 86kg 114 games 26 years old

Centres: Brandon Ellis 181cm 81kg 65 games 21 years old Nick Vlastuin 187cm 86kg 38 games 20 years old Reece Conca 185cm 83kg 65 games 22 years old

Half Forwards: Dustin Martin 187cm 89kg 108 games 23 years old Ben Griffiths 200cm 104kg 35 games 23 years old Brett Deledio 188cm 88kg 214 games 27 years old

Forwards: Shane Edwards 182cm 83kg 152 games 25 years old Jack Riewoldt 195cm 95kg 157 games 25 years old Sam Lloyd 182cm 84kg 8 games 24 years old

Rucks: Ivan Maric 200cm 102kg 132 games 28 years old Trent Cotchin 185cm 85kg 131 games 24 years old Anthony Miles 179cm 78kg 23 games 22 years old

Bench: Ben Lennon 190cm 82kg 7 games 19 years old Ricky Petterd 185cm 85kg 83 games 26 years old Tyrone Vickery 200cm 97kg 87 games 24 years old Nathan Gordon 188cm 86kg 14 games 24 years old

Averages
Age: 23.9 years old
Games: 85 games
Weight: 88.45kg
Height: 188.4cm

Hawthorn:
Back: Josh Gibson 189cm 94kg 165 games 30 years old Brian Lake 195cm 100kg 229 games 32 years old Grant Birchall 193cm 91kg 194 games 26 years old

HB: Sam Mitchell 179cm 83kg 261 games 31 years old Ben Stratton 189cm 89kg 92 games 25 years old Luke Hodge 185cm 90kg 250 games 30 years old

C: Brad Hill 180cm 78kg 51 games 21 years old Will Langford 187cm 83kg 20 games 22 years old Issac Smith 188cm 82kg 86 games 25 years old

HF: Luke Bruest 184cm 84kg 91 games 23 years old Jack Gunston 193cm 84kg 79 games 23 years old Jordan Lewis 186cm 88kg 224 games 28 years old

F: Ben McEvoy 200cm 103kg 104 games 25 years old Jarryd Roughead 193cm 100kg 207 games 27 years old Paul Puopolo 173cm 76kg 88 games 26 years old

R: David Hale 201cm 102kg 219 games 30 years old Liam Shiels 183cm 84kg 102 games 23 years old Shaun Burgoyne 186cm 89kg 269 games 32 years old

INT: Matt Spangher 195cm 96kg 51 games 27 years old Taylor Duryea 179cm 80kg 41 games 23 years old Matt Suckling 187cm 86kg 77 games 26 years old Cyril Rioli 177cm 80kg 133 games 25 years old

Averages:
Age: 26 years 10 months
Games: 118.3
Weight: 88.3
Height: 187.4cm

The Differences statistically are:
Hawthorn are on average 3 years older
Hawthorn have 33 games more per player experience.
Hawthorn have 9 players with 150+ games, Richmond have 4
Hawthorn have 3 players with 100-150 games, Richmond have 5
Hawthorn have 8 players with 51-99 games, Richmond have 5
Hawthorn have 2 players with >50 games, Richmond have 8

The other difference between the 2 sides is the speed factor. Hawthorn have Smith Hill Rioli Puopolo Bruest & Shiel who all have a bit of pace about them, we have Deledio Houli Morris & Edwards.

This is why I started this thread, because I do believe that we're heading in the right direction and that we are building nicely towards some real success, but i'd not just going to happen. As good as Hawthorn have been it's only really the last 4 years that they have become the dominant side they currently are. In their first 6 seasons under Clarkson they played in 3 finals series, yes they managed to win a flag, but they weren't the quality of side that they are now. What they were able to do was cash in on Geelong being unable to put them away, but that's not what I'm here to talk about.

What I am here to discuss is that we're a side that is building nicely towards ultimate success. Take a look at the 22 I named for Richmond, not a single 30 year old in the group. Maric and Chaplin will be 29 next year but that is it. Deledio turns 28, but given his ability to stay healthy and uninjured he is a young 28 and still have a good 5+ years of quality footy left in him. The rest of the side for the most part is still under 25, by my count 17 of them will be 25 or younger in 2015. That gives us a great foundation to build on and I believe we will in the next 6-8 weeks as trade period and the draft come and go.

That being said, I'm going to put it out there now, we're not going to be a genuine Grand Final threat in 2015, I hope we can be a side that pushes into the 2nd/3rd week of finals and maybe just maybe do a Hawthorn of 08 and cash in on a side slipping, but for mine I reckon we'll be around the top 6-12 sides still as we again look to fine tune the game plan and develop the likes of Vlastuin Lennon Lloyd Gordon Miles Griffiths Astbury into solid week to week contributors. For it won't be until the likes of them can perform week after week that we'll be that genuine threat. To put it another way, think of them as our Hill Smith Puopolo Stratton Spangher Langford Duryea types.

 

[jreesosb]

A good read _EAD_ thanks

 

[Bojangles17]

Imo you cant play Grimes with Astbury in the side, as we need more run so maybe replace him with a quick runner ie Pickett in this years draft?

yes you can, bachelor makes way

 

[richoatthedisco]

yes you can, bachelor makes way

Precisely. The second St Kilda game was a preview of how they will play Grimes with Astbury back - licensed to run. The boy's quick.

 

[THE_GUN]

_EAD_

The main difference between Richmond and Hawthorn is they are a Fast Skilled Team, We are lacking skill in our bottom 10 players and we certainly need pace ...................... Experience will come

 

[_RT_]

_EAD_

The main difference between Richmond and Hawthorn is they are a Fast Skilled Team, We are lacking skill in our bottom 10 players and we certainly need pace ...................... Experience will come

Agree they are a fast skilled team.
When you say bottom 10 players, are you talking entire list or just the 22 I named? If it's the entire list I'd agree if it's the 22 I named I'd strongly disagree.

 

[Bojangles17]

_EAD_

The main difference between Richmond and Hawthorn is they are a Fast Skilled Team, We are lacking skill in our bottom 10 players and we certainly need pace ...................... Experience will come

The main difference is they have 3 ace mids starting in the pivot , we have two when de lids and martin are forward. And they have two key forward that BW them kicked 120 goals, Them's the difference, the rest is all arbitrary

 

[TheProwler]

You are only as good as your depth. We just filled the bottom four spots in the eight the last two years with our best 22 playing most weeks. If we were to lose a few next year then the depth we turn to are too far away. Wouldn't mind if we drafted in two maybe three kids and fill the rest of the list spots from FA and trades. Not expecting B22 players but players we can call up in multiple positions as & when required.

 

[Parquet Court]

We are so far off the top 3-4 ATM. Just can't see richmond playing like this anytime soon. The jump from thereabouts to contender is not an easy one to make.

Really need a couple of late draft picks to flourish.

 

[THE_GUN]

Agree they are a fast skilled team.
When you say bottom 10 players, are you talking entire list or just the 22 I named? If it's the entire list I'd agree if it's the 22 I named I'd strongly disagree.

Kind of in between really, I would say the top 35 players and the reason i say this is because the bottom 5-6 players are untried or 1st year players and another 5/6 are rookie's.

The types that are really not bad players but are not really going to take us to the next level are our problem at the moment
Hampson,Thomas,Batchelor,Grigg,Newman,Foley,Knights,Chaplin all these players need to be upgraded otherwise we will always remain middle of the road
These players are probably getting 2-2.3 million a year between them

I would much rather pay a Dangerfield 800k and Jones 600k and have another 6 kids on the list developing, Who know's may just get a Miles type come through and at the same time being competative whilst churning through kids rather than having list cloggers taking up medium salary's and list spots

 

[partycorolla]

You are only as good as your depth. We just filled the bottom four spots in the eight the last two years with our best 22 playing most weeks. If we were to lose a few next year then the depth we turn to are too far away. Wouldn't mind if we drafted in two maybe three kids and fill the rest of the list spots from FA and trades. Not expecting B22 players but players we can call up in multiple positions as & when required.

Ummm.... no, that's not correct. In 2014, when we had our best 22 or close to it (and relatively fit) we were one of best performed teams in the comp.... Depth is still our issue. We have stars but not much that stands up when they are out or hurt

 

[_RT_]

Kind of in between really, I would say the top 35 players and the reason i say this is because the bottom 5-6 players are untried or 1st year players and another 5/6 are rookie's.

The types that are really not bad players but are not really going to take us to the next level are our problem at the moment
Hampson,Thomas,Batchelor,Grigg,Newman,Foley,Knights,Chaplin all these players need to be upgraded otherwise we will always remain middle of the road
These players are probably getting 2-2.3 million a year between them

I would much rather pay a Dangerfield 800k and Jones 600k and have another 6 kids on the list developing, Who know's may just get a Miles type come through and at the same time being competative whilst churning through kids rather than having list cloggers taking up medium salary's and list spots

Fair points. On that group that you named I'd say that it's possible by this time next year all or them could either be gone or just depth players. That would allow us to go after a Dangerfield type of FA and put an offer of $800k to them, outside that I wouldn't want to go chasing another FA worth $500-600k. I'd rather make sure that the likes of Cotchin Martin & Rance who are important to our side are happy and remain here. If we were going to chase another quality ready made player then I'd rather a GWS kid coming out of contract next year for around the $400k mark. If they don't get traded this year there will be some quality players available from them next year who might want to move back home or to a side that has a bit more chance of immediate success. By then we'll have that solid base of 22-26 year olds that form the foundation and spending a mid-late first round pick on one of them would be worth it.

As it is this year I'd like to see us try and trade into the second round and try and nab 2-3 more picks so that we can really top up that bottom level of talent so that we're in good position next year to be aggressive in the chase for a quality FA and one of those GWS kids. That might see us become a genuine threat a year earlier than I believe we're currently on track for being a contender.

 

[THE_GUN]

Fair points. On that group that you named I'd say that it's possible by this time next year all or them could either be gone or just depth players. That would allow us to go after a Dangerfield type of FA and put an offer of $800k to them, outside that I wouldn't want to go chasing another FA worth $500-600k. I'd rather make sure that the likes of Cotchin Martin & Rance who are important to our side are happy and remain here. If we were going to chase another quality ready made player then I'd rather a GWS kid coming out of contract next year for around the $400k mark. If they don't get traded this year there will be some quality players available from them next year who might want to move back home or to a side that has a bit more chance of immediate success. By then we'll have that solid base of 22-26 year olds that form the foundation and spending a mid-late first round pick on one of them would be worth it.

As it is this year I'd like to see us try and trade into the second round and try and nab 2-3 more picks so that we can really top up that bottom level of talent so that we're in good position next year to be aggressive in the chase for a quality FA and one of those GWS kids. That might see us become a genuine threat a year earlier than I believe we're currently on track for being a contender.

I dont agree that we shouldnt try to get the 2nd free agent, With say for example Nathan Jones & Dangerfield along with our current midfield we will really be amongst it and these players dont cost us draft picks , We can still go after the GWS/GC Kids but will need to trade for them.

I agree with not wanting to lose existing players /guns but we have to accept that this is going to happen and cant hold them all, There will be alot of player movement in the future and players are going to move.

There will come a time where you really just need to think 2-3 years and cant look too far into the future & Cant be too concerned about putting players off side. Every player wants flags & If you said to Lids,Cotch,Jack,Dusty,Tross that we will be bringing in Danger & Jones and we will be top 4 competeing for the flag but they will be on big dollars - I honestly think they would say sure lets get it done and win this thing.

Judd at Carlton didnt drive out Murphy,Gibbs etc and Buddy wont drive out Parker,Reid & Hannerbury
Players know these days that FA has its perks but if you play it right - You can be a top team very very quickly, Have to take out the emotion and become like a buisness these days. If the price is right you have to sell certain players collect the top picks and replace with free agents of top quality whilst at the same time bringing in some top tier kids via the draft

 

[theflea]

yes you can, bachelor makes way

Maybe but I don't think grimes would be good enough for a rebounder ie skillfull enough.

 

[_RT_]

I dont agree that we shouldnt try to get the 2nd free agent, With say for example Nathan Jones & Dangerfield along with our current midfield we will really be amongst it and these players dont cost us draft picks , We can still go after the GWS/GC Kids but will need to trade for them.

I agree with not wanting to lose existing players /guns but we have to accept that this is going to happen and cant hold them all, There will be alot of player movement in the future and players are going to move.

There will come a time where you really just need to think 2-3 years and cant look too far into the future & Cant be too concerned about putting players off side. Every player wants flags & If you said to Lids,Cotch,Jack,Dusty,Tross that we will be bringing in Danger & Jones and we will be top 4 competeing for the flag but they will be on big dollars - I honestly think they would say sure lets get it done and win this thing.

Judd at Carlton didnt drive out Murphy,Gibbs etc and Buddy wont drive out Parker,Reid & Hannerbury
Players know these days that FA has its perks but if you play it right - You can be a top team very very quickly, Have to take out the emotion and become like a buisness these days. If the price is right you have to sell certain players collect the top picks and replace with free agents of top quality whilst at the same time bringing in some top tier kids via the draft

Understand that we're not going to be able to keep everyone, but you can make sure that the ones that you rate the highest are locked away, so that if/when we bring in a quality free agent, the quality of our list improves. As I said last night for mine, make sure that Dusty Cotchin & Rance are signed before we start going out and making big money offers for FA, if that means we miss out on a Dangerfield then so be it. Look at Hawthorn they added a heap of top quality players in recent years but haven't gone out and paid overs to get them across. Lake took a cut to come across and is now a 2 time premiership player, Burgoyne from all accounts isn't on as big a money as he could have been, again 2 more flags to his name. Then there is the likes of Lewis Mitchell Hodge & Roughead all could have gone for much bigger coin elsewhere but stayed and are now 3 time premiership winners.

Geelong is the same, they didn't go out and over pay to keep their list together when they were in their period of greatness and won multiple flags, even now they are still practicing that fair and reasonable contracts approach to ensure that they keep their list together. They want Frawley and despite the bigger $ on offer from Freo, they aren't upping their deal, if he chooses to go elsewhere then so be it.

Last year we took a similar approach with Martin and White, offered both what we considered fair and reasonable offers to them, Dusty went looking elsewhere before staying put while White walked. Next year I hope we do the same thing with Cotchin Martin & Rance. Fair and reasonable contracts and get them locked away, then if we want to go shop for a FA we do it.

Now I know Sydney are slightly different, they are willing to spend big to bring across the top quality players, but it does cost them. Last year they got Buddy, but in the process lost Mumford and were left with Pyke and Derickx as their ruckmen as a result. Fair to say that if Sydney had of kept Mumford they might be premiers today rather than Hawthorn. The other thing that works in their favour is that they have a number of players who were on decent coin retiring which allows them that ability. But at what cost down the track. Granted they haven't loss anyone yet, but I bet it's only a matter of time before someone walks when they don't get what they think they should be getting.

 

[theflea]

Understand that we're not going to be able to keep everyone, but you can make sure that the ones that you rate the highest are locked away, so that if/when we bring in a quality free agent, the quality of our list improves. As I said last night for mine, make sure that Dusty Cotchin & Rance are signed before we start going out and making big money offers for FA, if that means we miss out on a Dangerfield then so be it. Look at Hawthorn they added a heap of top quality players in recent years but haven't gone out and paid overs to get them across. Lake took a cut to come across and is now a 2 time premiership player, Burgoyne from all accounts isn't on as big a money as he could have been, again 2 more flags to his name. Then there is the likes of Lewis Mitchell Hodge & Roughead all could have gone for much bigger coin elsewhere but stayed and are now 3 time premiership winners.

Geelong is the same, they didn't go out and over pay to keep their list together when they were in their period of greatness and won multiple flags, even now they are still practicing that fair and reasonable contracts approach to ensure that they keep their list together. They want Frawley and despite the bigger $ on offer from Freo, they aren't upping their deal, if he chooses to go elsewhere then so be it.

Last year we took a similar approach with Martin and White, offered both what we considered fair and reasonable offers to them, Dusty went looking elsewhere before staying put while White walked. Next year I hope we do the same thing with Cotchin Martin & Rance. Fair and reasonable contracts and get them locked away, then if we want to go shop for a FA we do it.

Now I know Sydney are slightly different, they are willing to spend big to bring across the top quality players, but it does cost them. Last year they got Buddy, but in the process lost Mumford and were left with Pyke and Derickx as their ruckmen as a result. Fair to say that if Sydney had of kept Mumford they might be premiers today rather than Hawthorn. The other thing that works in their favour is that they have a number of players who were on decent coin retiring which allows them that ability. But at what cost down the track. Granted they haven't loss anyone yet, but I bet it's only a matter of time before someone walks when they don't get what they think they should be getting.

I think its fair to say we wont over pay for FA's, which is why some of the high quality have gone elsewhere. It would put out our pay structure we have worked hard to fix.

 

[RockJobster0312]

Maybe but I don't think grimes would be good enough for a rebounder ie skillfull enough.

I think Grimes' composure and skill level is underrated.

By underrated I mean I am prepared to back him until he fails.

 

[Whatsername]

Backs: Steve Morris 185cm 83kg 57 games 25 years old David Astbury 195cm 96kg 37 games 23 years old Troy Chaplin 195cm 99kg 177 games 28 years old

Half Backs: Jake Batchelor 188cm 87kg 44 games 22 years old Alex Rance 194cm 96kg 99 games 24 years old Matthew Dea 186cm 87kg 31 games 22 years old

Centres: Brandon Ellis 181cm 81kg 57 games 21 years old Nick Vlastuin 187cm 86kg 30 games 20 years old Reece Conca 185cm 83kg 65 games 22 years old

Half Forwards: Dustin Martin 187cm 89kg 101 games 23 years old Jack Riewoldt 195cm 95kg 149 games 25 years old Brett Deledio 188cm 88kg 206 games 27 years old

Forwards: Shane Edwards 182cm 83kg 144 games 25 years old Tyrone Vickery 200cm 97kg 85 games 24 years old Matthew McDonough 180cm 84kg 8 games 20 years old

Rucks: Ivan Maric 200cm 102kg 124 games 28 years old Trent Cotchin 185cm 85kg 123 games 24 years old Anthony Miles 179cm 78kg 15 games 22 years old

Bench: Dylan Grimes 193cm 88kg 37 games 23 years old Ben Lennon 190cm 82kg 5 games 19 years old Daniel Jackson 188cm 91kg 143 games 28 years old Ricky Petterd 185cm 85kg 76 games 26 years old

Averages:
Games 82.4
Weight 88.4kg
Height 188.5cm
Age 23.6 years old

Now before everyone goes oh man it's too early for best 22 for 2015 threads, this is not what this is about. It's more about showing that despite the horrible season we're having results wise, there is the foundation of a very good side moving forward.

The group that I have as the back 7 is a very solid defensive unit. The difference between this group and the one that we have gone with in recent years is that Rance Astbury Morris Dea Batchelor & Grimes are all players who focus on ensuring their opponents are accounted for before looking at being attacking options. Therefore they are unlikely to be caught out on a turnover in the midfield like guys like Houli & Newman often are. Some might say where is the rebound from defence with run and carry. Well IMO Morris Rance & Chaplin can all provide that offensive play and with our midfielders starting to work hard back into the back line we will get help in that area.

Speaking of the midfield the group I have gone with in that area is again a very solid 2 way midfield, there might not be a lot of flash in that area, but the Swans have shown that you don't need a heap of flash to be one of the best midfield groups. The group that I have gone with does possess some quality disposal especially be foot and also has a fair amount of grunt when it comes to not only winning the ball but also doing the hard work when we don't have the ball. Cotchin Miles Vlastuin Ellis & Conca starting out with support from guys like Deledio Martin S.Edwards Lennon Jackson Petterd & McDonough gives us a nicely balanced set up.

Up forward I've gone with Jack at CHF, where we planned to play him this year and Vickery at FF. Jack has the smarts and ability up the ground to be very dangerous, he is going to drag the oppositions best defender away from the back line by leading up the ground and leave Vickery, who is decent on the lead, room to move into. With the 3rd tall role I've opted for a combination of Deledio & Lennon. Both are around the 190cm mark and are very good over head with thumping kicks on them. Having them alternate between the midfield and the 3rd tall role would really create some match up problems for the opposition. At the feet of Vickery I have McDonough & S.Edwards, both could be very handy in type defensive forward role who can also impact on the scoreboard and rotate through the middle. While Martin plays in a Bruest type of role, where he can cause havoc up forward and also give a chop out through the middle.

IMO if everyone in the side above was up and running next year we could very quickly find ourselves very much back in the mix for a finals spot. Now I realise that a lot of us, me included have said but we need some pace, well in that side there is some pace, not genuine speed, but there is some pace, but the more important thing IMO is that there is quality ball users who can move the ball quickly and accurately by hand and foot, and quick ball movement will always be better than quick players.

The other thing I hope we manage to do is adjust the make up of the list a little so that we can play the VFL side in the same sort of structure that the AFL side is playing with. If you look at the side I have posted below it is almost an identical structure, allowing for the delisting/retirements of the players we all believe should make way. From the side I have named we need 2 KPDs, one a gorilla type to eventually replace Chaplin and a more mobile Grimes/Rance type. Add to that 3 midfield/flanker types and I believe that the list would be well placed moving forward.

VFL Side

Backs: Cadeyn Williams 186cm 86kg 0 games 20 years old Ben Darrou 190cm 97kg 0 games 20 year old Gorilla Type KPD to replace Chaplin

Half Backs: Bachar Houli 180cm 86kg 106 games 26 years old Todd Elton 197cm 97kg 1 game 21 year old Bradley Helbig 185cm 85kg 16 games 22 years old

Centres: Shaun Grigg 190cm 85kg 119 games 26 years old Matt Thomas 186cm 87kg 97 games 27 years old Kamdyn McIntosh 192cm 87kg 0 games 20 years old

Half Forwards: Brett O’Hanlon 189cm 89kg 9 games 21 years old Ben Griffiths 200cm 104kg 29 games 22 years old Chris Knights 184cm 83kg 101 games 27 years old

Forwards: Sam Lloyd 182cm 84kg 5 games 24 years old Liam McBean 200cm 90kg 0 games 19 years old Nathan Gordon 188cm 86kg 7 games 24 years old

Rucks: Shaun Hampson 201cm 104kg 74 games 26 years old Matt Arnot 180cm 86kg 8 games 20 years old Nathan Foley 178cm 79kg 146 games 28 years old

Bench: Mobile 3rd tall KPD Midfield/Flanker Midfield/Flanker Midfield/Flanker

Again let me make this clear, this is not a best 22 for 2015 type of thread because none of us have any idea as to who is going to still be here and who is going to be added. Things may change drastically once the trade/draft periods happen and I'm sure that we'll have a best 22 for 2015 up the moment these periods have ended.

This is more about bringing a little bit of perspective/hope to the place after what has been a frustrating and dark 2014 season.

Cool story bro!

 

[Nerflardio2424]

Cool story bro!

Go heck yourself campaigner

 

[Tigerbob]

Cool story bro!

Just like Cox getting knocked the **** out franchise.