Bull Fighting

[Fred]

Originally posted by Brett Li


But it does have a hell of alot to do with the hypocrits that pan bullfighting. Are you one of these, Fred?

The topic was bullfighting, not dietary habits. There is no connection at all.

I am not in favour of bullfighting.

 

[sussudio]

the Hindus also revere cows but they don't go around killing them.

look, the spaniards can go and do whatever the hell they want, but they should be honest about it. they should admit that it's to satisfy the bloodlust of the crowd and for the matadors, it's about fame and money, instead of making bullfighting sound as if it's some form of poetry in motion or elegant ballet.

or make it a fair fight. why make the bull tire? surely a fully fit bull would be in a better position to display its "courage". let the crowd shout ole's for the bull.

what about the poor horses that are ridden by the men bearing the pikes? forget about the padding, do you think they fully protect the horse from the bull's horns?

 

[Thrawn]

Originally posted by Brett Li


But it does have a hell of alot to do with the hypocrits that pan bullfighting. Are you one of these, Fred?

Are you one of those people that torture mice when they are still alive in the mousetrap?

Pfft... if they're gonna kill the animal, kill it humanely. I do not believe that any animal has to suffer a slow, painful death. Do you think that they should, oh wise one?

 

[mantis]

Originally posted by Brett Li

Many people would regard a sport that involves two humans punching each other heads about while the crowd shouts, bloodthirsty, yet it has some "respectablity.

Bllfighting is a personal choice, but provokes alot of hypocrits.

Now your throwing in a sport where BOTH combatants CHOOSE to have the shyte beaten out of them, the bull doesn't get a choice, OH & by the way I dislike boxing & would be happy if it got banned.

Can you at least try to find a suitable comparison for your side of the argument.

 

[kaz68]

So by your reasoning, anyone who drives a car can have no opinion on protecting the environment ..... no person who is a virgin can have an opinion on extra marital sex (hell make that any sex) ... I think you get the idea.

I am definitely of the opinion (yes, it is MY opinion), that Bull-fighting is extremely cruel. Just because other things ALSO may be cruel, does NOT change this one little bit. To compare it with eating meat is a bit of a laugh .... don't see them warming up a BBQ as they torture the poor beasty to death.

Kaz
BTW ... don't eat meat, don't own a leather jacket and hate bullfighting ..... but if a mouse comes anywhere near my house God help it

 

[happy_in_hell]

Look, if you are going to ban Bullfighting, then you have to ban Greyhound racing as in both 'sports' you are enhancing an instinct in the animals - the red cape and the rabbit.

Oh and if you tell me "the greyhounds don't die", they get destroyed if they catch the rabbit.

Oh and if you ban greyhound racing you have to deal with Plugger.

 

[kaz68]

Oh I see ... you pull out the comedic throw away line from a post and rebut that but totally ignore the rest of it. Didn't it suit your argument ?????

Should have known better

Kaz

 

[Booze Hound]

I might have to tell the 'Cobblers de Torros' joke in a minute.

Or maybe not.

 

[kaz68]

Originally posted by Brett Li


Well excuse me

You're excused

Just trying to point out that just as you have your opinion, others are entitled to their's .... even if they eat meat or wear leather. Perhaps they don't equate them as the same thing ..... not really an unrealistic thing when you see an animal being tortured to death in the name of sport.

Abbatoirs and battery hen farms ARE horrid places too, and I am sure if many people saw a documentary on them they may also decide that free range eggs (or no eggs at all) and a vegetarian diet may be an appropriate choice. But unless that happens, to draw the long bow and say that they can't have an opinion on a sport that is inherently cruel is ludicrous. This topic was asking about bullfighting so argue its "point" rather than dismissing people's opinions on such an unfair basis.

Cheers
Kaz

 

[Thrawn]

Originally posted by Brett Li


Ever eaten Chicken Nuggets, Smartarse?

Answer my question. This topic has no relevance to food... or are you trying to weasel out of a sticky situation? Yes, I do eat meat, but that's beside the point. Read my post very slowly and carefully. I said I didn't like animals getting a slow and painful death, I'd rather much have it in a more humane matter if that is the case. Now, the question I asked: Would you?

See, fried chicken does not constitute to a slow and painful death to the chicken. I am not putting it through any agony, because it's meat from an animal that is deceased. People eat meat, but they don't enjoy seeing the brutal process at the slaughterhouse. As long as it's humane, I'm ok with it. You see, I am aware of how bad the conditions must be, but comparing food to entertainment is silly.

We cannot do anything but ponder. Let's just stick to our opinions, shall we?

 

[mantis]

I bet if matadors got killed or maimed everytime there was a bullfight, they would stop it then, while it is the bull who suffers the majority of the time it will keep happening.

GO THE BULLS.

 

[sussudio]

when the crowd shouts ole, is it for the matador or the bull? or both?

 

[Thrawn]

Originally posted by Brett Li
Bullfighting is NOT about a humane death. It is necessary for their to be a fight to reveal the Matador's bravery/art/craft/tirture (whatever your pointy of view). I personally do not find it degrading to the animal.

I didn't say it was. Why make the animal suffer when you can end its suffering with a quick kill, if that may be?

Originally posted by Brett Li
Next question:
Do animal breed for meat all humane life, no matter how humane their death.

Not every living thing on this Earth can have a humane life, which is unfortunate. My original argument was that putting the animal in such pain before you kill it was not the way to go and it's death should be humane.

Originally posted by Brett Li

12 minutes in a fight (humane or not), or 24 months in a state of undescribable misery. Is this humane?

That is a hard question to answer. Both are bad, but I really guess there is nothing you can do about it. You can't stop them from processing meat, but the best thing you can do for the animals is a humane death. But you are going off-topic here. This thread is about bullfighting, not about animals that are bred for meat. I don't even know why I got into this debate, but I asked you a simple question, and I still haven't got an answer from you. I'll ask it again: I do not believe that any animal has to suffer a slow, painful death. Do you think that they should, oh wise one?

Originally posted by Brett Li who's weasling out?[/b]

You, because you can't answer one simple question that is the basis of my argument. Answer it, and I'll leave you alone.

 

[Thrawn]

Originally posted by Brett Li


so you know it goes on, but you don't like to watch it?.

Exactly. I have been to a slaughterhouse before, and have seen what goes on. I don't like to watch it... and it's obvious why.

 

[mantis]

Brett

Would you still be defending bullfighting if it was the matadors that were getting killed every fight?
Would you be able to justify that by saying they died to show human bravery.

 

[Thrawn]

Originally posted by Brett Li


but you eat meat and keep the inhumane "breeding" of mutant chickens, thus perpetuating the situation. Can you see a correlation between eating meat and the contination of battery farming? Come on Bigman, this isn't Rocket science.

In answer to your other question, does an animal deserve a humane death?. Yes of course. But where would the human bravery (and whole reason behind Bullfighting ) be in shooting Bulls with a Bazooka?.

Bullfighting is a hand-to -hand display of supreme bravery which must result in the Bulls death. To do this the Bull must be tired to lower the head to ensure the sword can be placed cleanly and so bizarrely the death is more humane. The quicker and more clean the kill is the aim of the Bullfight.

Yes, I agree with you on the Bullfighting and thanks for finally answering my question. Yes, I can see the correlation between the two, and I addressed this in a previous post. It all depends on moral views really, and one which I'm not going to dabble in too much. I just have an opinion that animals that are processed for meat should be treated humanely, that is all. I have addressed my point a few times, and there is no need to repeat ourselves. You have your opinions on this matter, and I have mine. Let's leave it at that shall we? No point in repetitive debates... I've had enough of 'em.

 

[Docker_Brat]

I went to a bullfight in Barcelona and it was a real eye opener. I wanted to see it first hand even though I didn't agree with killing the bulls.

My ex-girlfriend wanted to go along thinking it was like you see in the cartoons with the red cape etc. Uh uh. When I explained to her that they actually kill the bulls, she freked but it was too late cos we were on our way.

Best part of the fight was when one of the bulls got the matador and flipped him, I was getting right into it yealling "CARNA BULLS!!" got a few funny looks after that.

 

[oh_my_hat]

I love to see the bulls win, I especially like to see the matadors gored badly by the bulls.

These matadors are considered 'heroes' for what they do ie. the Spanish are barbarians.

 

[sussudio]

this is not something to change the minds of those who are pro-bull fighting. it is just some information from the internet that suggest bulls suffer long before they get into the ring.

Before entering the ring, the bull is often handicapped - although this is officially illegal - by filing its horns so that it misjudges attempts to gore the matador and by smearing vaseline into its eyes to blur its vision. The bull might also be beaten with clubs, its ears and nostrils may be stuffed with cotton wool, and it may even be drugged to further obstruct its senses. This is much worse in Mexico and other South American countries.

Normally a veterinary surgeon, who is to be present before and during the fight, has to declare that each bull meets the requirements regarding the health, age and weight. However, some of these vets may be part of the bullfighting establishment and therefore may be prone to overlook certain manipulations. Most traditional bullfights pass through several distinct stages. Just before the fight begins, a steel emblem of the breeder's mark is driven into the animals back, and from its darkened quarters the bulls sent into the ring already in a state of terror. It is let out so that it faces the sun and is dazzled by it, a herd animal alone in strange surroundings.

Bulls will sometimes be given massive doses of sulphates (epsom salts) in their water to induce severe diarrhoea, intestinal pain and subsequent lack of co-ordination in the ring. The chief veterinarian at Las Ventas bullring in Madrid has revealed that bulls from the fights have been found to have up to 25 kg of sulphates in their systems, whereas only 4 or 5 kg is considered to be a brutally massive dose. The veterinarian also discovered that sometimes the bulls are given drugs to sedate them before entering the ring. The sedative Combilin, a hypnotic and tranquillizing drug, may be injected into the animals so that by the time they are sent into the ring their senses are in complete disorder. During transit from breeding farm to bullring, they are crushed into small transit vehicles without food, water or space to move and many cases of bulls being dead upon arrival (due to their necks breaking when transferred in vehicles too small for them).

The cultural significance of bullfighting is also a misnomer, given that the industry is mostly propped up by tourist dollars. It is also supported by the Catholic Church, which is hypocritical given that professional bullfights are held on a Sunday.

I see no correlation between bullfighting and meat consumption/animal products. One is a sport, and is not necessary. The other, though cruel, is necessary as a food source, although organisations like the RSPCA are running campaigns against battery hens and the like, and educating industry about alternative and more humane methods of food cultivation.

In Spain, bullfighting is exempt under animal welfare laws. Even the EU has declared bullfighting a protected activity under the heading of "National Culture". I think the situation will be very different if it comes under animal welfare laws, as it should because the bulls are not killed for food, but as trophies.

 

[sussudio]

yes, but meat is not the primary reason why the bull was killed. it was killed for entertainment.

I am shocked by the battery hens and other cruel treatment of livestock in Australia, that's why I support the RSPCA in its campaigns against battery hens, regulation of livestock, intensive farming.. the lobbying is for government and the meat industry to change and regulate their practices, as they are cruel.

the situation is different in Spain because bullfighting is protected by EU and Spanish laws, and exempt from animal welfare laws. If it isn't, I think that bullfighting will contravene many of the spanish animal welfare laws.

this is not to bash spanish culture. spain has contributed many great things to the world.

 

[sussudio]

The bulls aren't the only victims of the arena. The horses ridden by the picadors also suffer. They may wear padding but how can padding be a defence against a large bull?

According to Lyn Sherwood, publisher of an English-language bullfight magazine, horses used in bullfights are "shot behind the ear with dope. The horses are drugged and blindfolded and they're knocked down a lot."

These horses, who are often gored, usually have wet newspaper stuffed in their ears to impair their hearing, and their vocal cords are usually cut so their cries do not distract the crowd. Fight promoters claim the horses are "saved" from glue factories; this means these animals are often old, tired plow horses who end up being knocked down by bulls weighing up to a half a ton.

 

[kaz68]

Firstly, GREAT posts sussudio.

As for this ....

Originally posted by Brett Li
Ever seen a whole Bull on the wall?. Where do you think the meat ends up?

Do you have proof that the meat ends up being used for consumption ? With the claims of drugs being used on the bulls (sounds like to almost toxic levels), and the unhygenic conditions in which the animal is slaughtered, I would have thought this to be highly unlikely.

Kaz

 

[Booze Hound]

Brett

Do they also cut up the dead matadors?

Seems only fair.

The "Cobbler de Torros" joke is getting closer

 

[mantis]

Originally posted by happy_in_hell

SpaniShishkebab anyone.

Brett I noticed you never replied to my responses on your boxing analogy, or if you would still support it if it was the matadors that died everytime. Oops I forgot, you only want to compare animals being killed for food, with animals being killed for sport.

 

[sussudio]

the drugging is real. Many prominent former bullfighters report that the bull is intentionally debilitated with tranquillizers and laxatives, beatings to the kidneys, petroleum jelly rubbed into their eyes to blur vision, heavy weights hung around their neck for weeks before the fight, and confinement in darkness for 48 hours before being released into the bright arena, where it is initially blinded and completely disoriented.

A well-known bullfight vet, Dr. Manuel Sanz, reported that in 1987 more than 90 percent of bulls killed in fights had their horns "shaved" before the fight. Horn shaving involves sawing off several inches of the horns so the bull misses his thrusts at the altered angle. Shaving is illegal, so the horns are sometimes inspected by a vet after a fight.

But in 1997, the Confederation of Bullfighting Professionals, including Spain’s 230 matadors, went on strike in opposition to these veterinary inspections. The strikers claimed veterinarians were "not experienced enough" to inspect the bulls. However, most recognize this as just another aspect of the corruption that infiltrates a business that brings in more than $1 million annually to each professional matador. In 1996, Spain tallied $1.4 billion in ticket sales. The "cultural significance" of this "sport" is mitigated by the fact that by far the biggest demand for bullfighting comes from tourists. One of the biggest supporters of bullfighting is the tourism industry. Travel agents and bullfight promoters portray the fight as a festive and fair competition.

The actual bullfight is also nothing but systematic mutilation. It is torture, pure and simple. In a typical event, the bull enters the arena and is approached by men who exhaust and frustrate him by running him in circles and tricking him into collisions. When the bull is tired and out of breath, he is approached by picadors. The picadors are men on blindfolded horses who drive lances into the bull’s back and neck muscles. This impairs the bull’s ability to lift his head. They twist and gouge the lances to ensure a significant amount of blood loss. Then come the banderilleros on foot who proceed to distract and dart around the bull while plunging more lances into him. When the bull has weakened from blood loss, these banderilleros run the bull in more circles until he is dizzy and stops chasing.

Finally, the matador ("killing" or "killer" in Spanish) appears and after provoking a few exhausted charges from the dying animal, tries to kill the bull with his sword. The idea is for the matador to place his sword between the bull's shoulder blades and sever the aorta. If this fails, another sword is thrust behind the back of the bull's neck to sever the spinal cord. Commonly, the matador succeeds only in further mutilation and an executioner is called in to stab the exhausted and submissive animal to death. The dagger is supposed to cut the spinal cord, but even this can be blundered, leaving the bull fully conscious but paralyzed as he is chained by his horns and dragged from the arena.

As mentioned previously, the horses ridden by the picadors also suffer. American author Ernest Hemingway, famous for romanticizing the bullfight ritual, once described the scenes of horses being gored: "I have seen these, call them disemboweling, that is the worst word when due to their timing, they were very funny. This is the sort of thing you should not admit, but it is because such things have not been admitted that the bullfight has never been explained."

Selective breeding has enabled ranchers to create a bull who will die in a manner most satisfying to the public. Bulls are chosen to breed with cows who, when stabbed with lances, always charge in the same manner. They are bred to return to the torture repeatedly. In this, it is no different to breeding pitbull terriers for dogfights, or ***** for cockfighting.

In Mexico, bullfighting also includes novillada, or baby bullfights. Baby bulls, some no more than a few weeks old, are brought into arenas where they are stabbed to death by spectators, many of whom are children. These bloodbaths end with spectators cutting off the ears and tail of the often fully conscious calf lying in his own blood.

The so-called "bloodless bullfights" that are legal in many U.S. states involve people’s teasing and attacking the bull. Although tormenting and abuse is part of the show, killing must be done outside the arena. The worst thing is that such fights are sponsored by big American companies, like Pepsi, who have signs plastered all over the arena.

In Colombia, there is an annual festival in which solitary bulls are tormented by thousands of people who think they are testing their "bravery" (aided by a festive atmosphere and large quantities of alcohol). "If nobody gets killed, it’s boring," laments Carlos Perez, head of the committee that organized the contest in 1996. But even Colombian bullfighter Luis Cuadrado admits, "It’s just one bull against a thousand morons." Cuadrado prefers to sit on the ground until the bull is close enough to stab with a lance, after which Cuadrado promptly scurries away to safety. These festivals last four or five days, with at least 35 victimized bulls each day.