Bulldogs and Indigenous Players - Last 10 Years of Drafting

Do you feel the Bulldogs have been racially biased in our drafting?


  • Total voters
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Virgin Dog

Premiership Player
Oct 29, 2017
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I've been seeing a lot of healthy discussion lately around our list management, and more specifically the lack of indigenous players on our list. I thought it might be useful to gather information on the last 10 years of Bulldogs trade/draft history to get an overview of where we may potentially have gone wrong, and whether this is truly the "fault" of recruiting staff, or simply a coincidence. I will post some of my own thoughts below, and leave it up for discussion.


2010 AFL Draft2011 AFL Draft
Traded for 1 indigenous playerTraded away 1 indigenous player
Drafted 1 indigenous playerDrafted 0 indigenous players
No missed opportunities through the draftNo missed opportunities through the draft


2012 AFL Draft2013 AFL Draft
Traded for 1 indigenous playerNo trades involving indigenous players
Drafted 1 indigenous playerDrafted 0 indigenous players
No missed opportunities through the draftMissed Karl Amon by taking Honeychurch


2014 AFL Draft2015 AFL Draft
Traded away 1 indigenous playerNo trades involving indigenous players
Retained 1 indigenous playerDrafted 0 indigenous players
No missed opportunitiesQuestionable - see comments


2016 AFL Draft2017 AFL Draft
Traded away 2 indigenous playersDelisted our last indigenous player
Drafted 1 indigenous playerDrafted 0 indigenous players
Couple of debatable choices - see commentsNo missed opportunities in this draft


2018 AFL Draft2019 AFL Draft
No indigenous players on the listNo indigenous players on the list
Drafted 0 indigenous playersDrafted 0 indigenous players
Missed Parker by taking CavarraNo missed opportunities in this draft
 
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Virgin Dog

Premiership Player
Oct 29, 2017
4,812
7,889
AFL Club
Western Bulldogs
2010 Draft

~~ Trades ~~

Andrejs Everitt <> Patrick Veszpremi + Pick 91
Pick 57 <> Nathan Djerrkura
End 1st Round Pick <> Justin Sherman

~~ Picks ~~
Pick 22 - Mitch Wallis (F/S)
Pick 41 - Tom Liberatore (F/S)
Pick 74 - Jayden Schofield
Pick 88 - Zephaniah Skinner
Pick 89 - Tom Hill

ROOKIE Pick 22 - Luke Dahlhaus
ROOKIE Pick 39 - Jason Johannisen
ROOKIE Pick 55 - Ed Barlow
ROOKIE Pick 70 - Mitch Hahn (retain)

~~ Comments ~~
  • First two picks were matching father/son bids. Pick 74 became our first “live” pick in the draft.
  • At our live picks in the main draft, there were no notable indigenous players available that we didn’t end up taking. This was also the case in the rookie draft
  • We traded for an indigenous player (Djerkurra)
  • We drafted an indigenous player (Skinner)

There were no clear missed opportunities here


2011 Draft

~~ Trades ~~

Josh Hill <> Pick 49
Ben Hudson <> Pick 70

~~ Picks ~~
Pick 17 - Clay Smith
Pick 39 - Michael Talia
Pick 47 - Daniel Pearce
Pick 57 - Tory Dickson

ROOKIE Pick 9 - Lin Jong
ROOKIE Pick 27 - Tom Campbell

~~ Comments ~~
  • At Pick 32 was Joel Hamling, and Pick 33 was Brad Hill. Both these players were outside the viable range of our Pick 17.
  • At Pick 45 was Brendon Ah Chee, only 6 picks after Michael Talia. Both dud picks, so this one cannot be considered a “missed opportunity”.
  • At Pick 64 was Cam Ellis-Yolmen, 7 picks after Tory Dickson. Tory has had an objectively better career than CEY to date.
  • We traded away an indigenous player (Hill)

There were two cases where one could argue we have passed on the opportunity to draft an indigenous player in the same range, but in the case of Dickson it was clearly the right choice, while in the case of Talia, both were nothing special.


2012 Draft

~~ Trades ~~
Brain Lake + Pick 27 <> Pick 21 + Pick 43
Pick 43 <> Koby Stevens
Pick 69 <> Tom Young

~~ Picks ~~
Pick 5 - Jake Stringer
Pick 6 - Jack Macrae
Pick 21 - Nathan Hrovat
Pick 49 - Lachie Hunter (F/S)
Pick 50 - Josh Prudden

ROOKIE Pick 4 - Brett Goodes

~~ Comments ~~
  • There were no decent indigenous players taken between our Macrae and Hrovat picks, whereas Stringer and Macrae have both become premiership players and had solid careers to date.
  • After Hrovat, our next pick was matching a father/son bid.
  • No notable indigenous players were taken between Prudden and Goodes (who is indigenous himself), our last pick of the draft.
  • We traded for an indigenous player (Stevens)
  • We drafted an indigenous player (Goodes)

There were no clear missed opportunities here


2013 Draft

~~ Trades ~~
Pick 78 <> Sam Darley
Pick 26 <> Stewart Crameri

~~ Picks ~~
Pick 4 - Marcus Bontempelli
Pick 42 - Matt Fuller
Pick 60 - Mitch Honeychurch

~~ Comments ~~
  • At Pick 21 was Jarman Impey, although he was out of range of our first pick.
  • At Pick 68 was Karl Amon, 8 picks after Honeychurch. While we apparently rated Honeychurch somewhere in the vicinity of the 1st/2nd round, so this seemed a steal at the time, with the gift of hindsight this was a poor pick and a missed opportunity.
  • At rookie pick 7 (a little longer after the Honeychurch pick) was Charlie Cameron. There were 9 picks taken from Amon to Cameron, so this isn’t much further down the draft.

We missed the chance on Amon by taking Honeychurch. I would class this as a missed opportunity.



2014 Draft

~~ Trades ~~

Ryan Griffin + Pick 6 <> Tom Boyd
Adam Cooney <> Pick 37
Liam Jones <> Pick 46
Pick 37 <> Shane Biggs + Pick 39

~~ Picks ~~
Pick 26 - Toby McLean
Pick 27 - Lukas Webb
Pick 39 - Declan Hamilton
Pick 45 - Bailey Dale
Pick 46 - Caleb Daniel
Pick 62 - Zaine Cordy (F/S)

ROOKIE Pick 5 - Roarke Smith
ROOKIE Pick 23 - Jordan Kelly
ROOKIE Pick 40 - Daniel Pearce (retain)
ROOKIE Pick 57 - Brett Goodes (retain)

~~ Comments ~~
  • No notable indigenous players were passed up between live picks in this draft.
  • We traded away an indigenous player (Jones).
  • We drafted/retained an indigenous player (Goodes)
 
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Virgin Dog

Premiership Player
Oct 29, 2017
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2015 Draft

~~ Trades ~~

Pick 11 + 2016 3rd <> Pick 20 + Pick 21
Michael Talia + Pick 69 <> 2016 4th
Gained Matt Suckling (Unrestricted Free Agent)
Lost Jarrad Grant (Delisted Free Agent)

~~ Picks ~~
Pick 25 - Josh Dunkley
Pick 26 - Kieran Collins
Pick 35 - Marcus Adams
Pick 48 - Bailey Williams

ROOKIE Pick 11 - Brad Lynch
ROOKIE Pick 29 - Luke Goetz
ROOKIE Pick 46 - Jed Adcock

~~ Comments ~~
  • By splitting Pick 11, we missed the chance to draft Daniel Rioli at Pick 15, and Jade Gresham at Pick 18.
  • Anthony McDonald-Tipungwuti was taken at rookie Pick 22, 11 picks after Lynch. A miss in hindsight, but not many clubs outside of Essendon would have taken the chance on Tippa.
  • There were a number of other indigenous players spread throughout this draft, but none of quality that were close enough to our live picks.

In hindsight, if we didn’t split our pick we could have taken Rioli or Gresham, but can’t place blame on the club for this one given we didn’t go into the draft with those live picks, and can’t have known precisely where they were going to land. For all we know, there could have been an expectation that one of these guys would be available at one of our 2nd rounders.


2016 Draft

~~ Trades ~~
Joel Hamling + Pick 40 + Pick 63 <> Pick 35 + Pick 43 + Pick 61
Pick 35 + Pick 43 <> Pick 26 + Pick 80
Nathan Hrovat + 2017 3rd + 2017 4th <> 2017 3rd + 2017 4th
Pick 76 <> Travis Cloke
Koby Stevens + Pick 61 + 2017 4th <> Pick 50 + 2017 5th

~~ Picks ~~
Pick 19 - Tim English
Pick 28 - Patrick Lipinski
Pick 49 - Lewis Young
Pick 70 - Fergus Greene

ROOKIE Pick 18 - Nathan Mullenger-McHugh
ROOKIE Pick 35 - Josh Prudden (retain)

NGA Cat B Rookie - Tristan Tweedie

~~ Comments ~~
  • Ben Long, one of our own VFL players, was taken at Pick 25, 6 picks after the Tim English pick.
  • Shai Bolton was taken the very next pick after Patrick Lipinski.
  • Willie Rioli was taken 3 picks after Young.
  • We traded away two indigenous players (Hamling and Stevens)
  • We drafted one indigenous player as a Cat B rookie (Tweedie)

It’s doubtful anyone would have taken Long ahead of English. Lipinski vs Bolton is one we can debate given how closely these two were rated at the draft. With the information we have now, I’m sure anyone would take Lipinski ahead of Bolton, so this has been shown to be the right decision, although still worth mentioning. Rioli has been a better player than Young so far, although appears to be pushing single digit IQ given his gatorade incident, and may never play again, so Young is still a good result from this choice.



2017 Draft

~~ Trades ~~

Jake Stringer <> Pick 25 + Pick 30
Pick 40 + Pick 82 <> Hayden Crozier + 2018 4th
Pick 28 + Pick 30 + 2018 2nd <> Pick 16 + Pick 40
Pick 25 + Pick 40 <> Josh Schache

Gained Jackson Trengove (Restricted Free Agent)

~~ Picks ~~
Pick 9 - Aaron Naughton
Pick 16 - Ed Richards
Pick 74 - Cal Porter

ROOKIE Pick 9 - Billy Gowers
ROOKIE Pick 25 - Roarke Smith (retain)

~~ Comments ~~
  • Tim Kelly could have been a viable pick at 16, but was taken at Pick 24.
  • Liam Ryan was then taken another 2 picks later at Pick 26.
  • Jarrod Garlett was taken 4 picks after Porter, but has already been delisted again while Porter remains on our list.
  • Lindsay Thomas was available at our Gowers pick, although he’s gone now.

Kelly and Ryan were both superstars in the WAFL, but would have been considered big reaches if taken with the Richards pick. No missed opportunities in this draft overall.



2018 Draft

~~ Trades ~~

Pick 64 <> Sam Lloyd
2019 4th <> Taylor Duryea
Marcus Adams <> Pick 32 + 2019 3rd
Jordan Roughead <> Pick 75
Pick 30 + Pick 57 <> Pick 34 + Pick 41
Pick 46 <> 2019 3rd

Lost Luke Dahlhaus (Unrestricted Free Agent) for 2nd round pick

~~ Picks ~~
Pick 7 - Bailey Smith
Pick 26 - Rhylee West (F/S)
Pick 37 - Laitham Vandermeer
Pick 45 - Ben Cavarra
Pick 78 - Will Hayes

ROOKIE Pick 6 - Lachie Young
ROOKIE Pick 23 - Jordon Sweet

~~ Comments ~~
  • Could have bid on Tarryn Thomas with Pick 7 (as he was bid on at the next pick), but Smith was clearly the better player, with a distinct separation in talent between the Top 7 and the rest of the group.
  • Irving Mosquito was taken the pick straight after Vandermeer, although he is yet to debut (and was considered a laughable reach at the time) while Vandermeer is playing senior footy this season.
  • Could have bid on Jarrod Cameron (NGA, was bid on the pick after Mosquito) but this would have been matched regardless.
  • Could have taken Matthew Parker, as he went two picks after Cavarra.

Thomas, Mosquito and Cameron were all correct decisions by the club. I firmly believe that Cavarra appeared to be the best choice at the time of drafting, although in hindsight Parker could have been a very viable option, as he’s played more senior footy than Cavarra thus far.



2019 Draft

~~ Trades ~~
Pick 32 + Pick 51 <> Josh Bruce
Pick 45 + 2020 2nd <> Alex Keath + 2020 3rd
2020 4th <> Pick 62

~~ Picks ~~
Mid-season Draft Pick 6 - Ryan Gardner

Pick 15 - Cody Weightman
Pick 53 - Louis Butler
Pick 62 - Riley Garcia

~~ Comments ~~
  • Drafted Weightman at Pick 15, although all the talk pre-draft was that we were eyeing off Kysaiah Pickett, who ended up going at 12. This was already considered a reach, and Melbourne beat us to him.

No missed opportunities in this draft, as we potentially would have taken Pickett ahead of Weightman if given the chance.
 

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BEaston

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Oct 9, 2013
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Everyone is racially biased in some way. I think people should be less sensitive/defensive when this is raised. I think it's pretty clear there's a bias at play. That doesn't make anyone evil.
 
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Guido

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There's a greater Italian population in Australia than Indigenous. If the analysis fits, are certain clubs biased for/against those with an Italian background?

Do Bont and Libba prove we do well with Mediterraneans? However Talia and Crameri prove we have a long way to go with our Italian friends and clearly need to do better (I'm taking the p1ss).

Or would it be utterly ridiculous to bring background into it on any level rather than rely purely on best available?

If this was 2003 and many were worried about our reputation, maybe we would've drafted Tambling over Griffen, just to silence the doubters? And his failing at AFL level would have somehow been the club's fault because of our lack of indigenous programs?
 

Prince Imperial

Club Legend
Apr 9, 2003
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Touk Miller is not indigenous.

Bolton has kicked 7 goals this year and is very talented. Jury out on who will be the better pick at this stage, I would think. Though Bolton has contracted for another two years, I can understand why we took Lipinski, given the latter has a far lower flight risk than the West Australian.
 

Virgin Dog

Premiership Player
Oct 29, 2017
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There's a greater Italian population in Australia than Indigenous. If the analysis fits, are certain clubs biased for/against those with an Italian background?

Do Bont and Libba prove we do well with Mediterraneans? However Talia and Crameri prove we have a long way to go with our Italian friends and clearly need to do better (I'm taking the p1ss).

Or would it be utterly ridiculous to bring background into it on any level rather than rely purely on best available?

If this was 2003 and many were worried about our reputation, maybe we would've drafted Tambling over Griffen, just to silence the doubters? And his failing at AFL level would have somehow been the club's fault because of our lack of indigenous programs?
The concern isn't on whether we are hitting imaginary quotas on racial backgrounds. There should never be any concern over having the team appear proportional to the wider population of Australia or the AFL.

What people are wondering is whether we are actively avoiding drafting indigenous players. If given the option between Player A and Player B, where Player A is indigenous, while Player B is the better, more suitable player and also non-indigenous, then remove race from it and Player B is clearly the better option.

However, have there been times where we swap the race of the above example, and have gone with the non-indigenous option again?
 

Virgin Dog

Premiership Player
Oct 29, 2017
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Touk Miller is not indigenous.

Bolton has kicked 7 goals this year and is very talented. Jury out on who will be the better pick at this stage, I would think. Though Bolton has contracted for another two years, I can understand why we took Lipinski, given the latter has a far lower flight risk than the West Australian.
Apologies, you're correct - I saw him previously involved in indigenous round, but he's actually of African-American heritage, not indigenous. I'll fix that
 

Virgin Dog

Premiership Player
Oct 29, 2017
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I think the biggest ones to consider are:
  • Honeychurch instead of Karl Amon
  • Lipinski instead of Shai Bolton
  • Cavarra instead of Matthew Parker
The rest can't fairly be criticized in my opinion. Lipinski clearly seems the better player than Bolton, and was a Doggies fan growing up, but Bolton arguably fills a bigger area of need.

Parker and Cavarra were both extremely quick players, but Cavarra had the longer history of high performance in the state leagues and his credentials were better. In hindsight, I think we should have taken Parker but it's still very early days


Something else to consider - many indigenous players tend to come from outside Victoria, mainly NT and WA. Could it be that our drafting habits tend to favour native Victorians, and as a side effect it means we are more likely to pass on indigenous talent since a large number come from interstate?

Gold Coast has basically exclusive access to NT players now. WA players tend to end up huge flights risks, and the loss of Hamling could have caused concern with the club. Kelly, Ryan, Bolton and Parker were all WA players that we could have (and perhaps should have) taken, but passed up. Is this because of concern of being flight risks?
 

Guido

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The concern isn't on whether we are hitting imaginary quotas on racial backgrounds. There should never be any concern over having the team appear proportional to the wider population of Australia or the AFL.

What people are wondering is whether we are actively avoiding drafting indigenous players. If given the option between Player A and Player B, where Player A is indigenous, while Player B is the better, more suitable player and also non-indigenous, then remove race from it and Player B is clearly the better option.

However, have there been times where we swap the race of the above example, and have gone with the non-indigenous option again?
IMO you cannot draw a serious analysis/conclusion without our full draft "hitlist".

Non Indigenous Player X that we took at pick 30 might have had 3 Indigenous players as next cabs off the rank right after him (and we would have went with an Indigenous guy had player X been taken before our pick).

*IF* you had those lists, *and* there was a massive discrepancy with our lists and every other clubs full draft hitlists, then you could possibly draw some conclusions.

But I'd imagine there wouldn't be much of a difference, and even if there was, it could simply be a case of some clubs looking for outside class and flair and others midfield bulls in certain drafts or under certain coaches.
 

Mutt

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Aug 16, 2008
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There's a greater Italian population in Australia than Indigenous. If the analysis fits, are certain clubs biased for/against those with an Italian background?

Do Bont and Libba prove we do well with Mediterraneans? However Talia and Crameri prove we have a long way to go with our Italian friends and clearly need to do better (I'm taking the p1ss).

Or would it be utterly ridiculous to bring background into it on any level rather than rely purely on best available?

If this was 2003 and many were worried about our reputation, maybe we would've drafted Tambling over Griffen, just to silence the doubters? And his failing at AFL level would have somehow been the club's fault because of our lack of indigenous programs?
The issue here is not reputation.

And best available is clearly in the eye of the beholder...and we haven't seen as many indigenous players as other clubs have to be "best available". Why? This is not a statistical aberration... all of our recruiting/trading decisions are deliberate and the sample size is large.
 

Virgin Dog

Premiership Player
Oct 29, 2017
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The issue here is not reputation.

And best available is clearly in the eye of the beholder...and we haven't seen as many indigenous players as other clubs have to be "best available". Why? This is not a statistical aberration... all of our recruiting/trading decisions are deliberate and the sample size is large.
We could have conveniently looked at Dalrymple and his failure to rate indigenous players high enough, but Sydney gambled on Elijah Taylor this year when few others clubs wanted to, so clearly it can't have been him. Does it go past Dalrymple when he was with us? How many others have a large say in our recruiting?
 

stefoid

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Mar 8, 2002
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I dont really have any conclusions to draw, but I have some random observations

We have to try doubly as hard to keep indigenous players as a lot of other clubs - historically we have hardly been a destination club for anyone, but particularly interstate players - come to a freezing cold, perennially unsuccessful, financially challenged club in the unfashionable western suburbs of Melbourne? Wouldnt be your first choice Im guessing.

WA and SA clubs will have a much better idea of their local talent than interstate clubs (although slowly this will have been getting better for us I hope). But as we are talking a systematic issue we have to take into account 20 - 30 years. So they will be 'over represented' in local, and therefore indigenous talent compared to non-WA and SA clubs.

Clubs recruiters probably do take flight risk into account? If there is a line ball, take the local. If a player is very obviously a flight risk, they may not even consider them unless they drop far below their perceived draft value. I dont really know, but I assume this kind of thinking is common at all clubs.

All of these factors will be coming into play for us. We would have needed to make an extra special effort to overcome them over a long period of time, which we clearly have not.

I dont know what the stats would be exactly, but my guess is the 'successful indigenous player ladder' would look like

WA teams
daylight
SA teams
more daylight
rich successful clubs and Queensland clubs in no particular order
the rest of them, including us
 

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Guido

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The issue here is not reputation.

And best available is clearly in the eye of the beholder...and we haven't seen as many indigenous players as other clubs have to be "best available". Why? This is not a statistical aberration... all of our recruiting/trading decisions are deliberate and the sample size is large.
Where did we have each and every indigenous player on our hitlist? How does that compare to where other clubs had them?

Unless you can answer that and make an informed comparison on exactly where we rated players and how that compares to other clubs, it's all assumptions based on how cards fell on draft night.

eg: Dalrymple may have had Tim Kelly ranked 17 or 18th on his list behind Ed Richards at 15, Geelong may have had Kelly ranked 22 or 23 - yet despite ranking him higher, Geelong is deemed open to Indigenous talent and we're seen as shunning it. Unless you can see these hitlists to confirm, I don't think we can make these kinds of calls.

A real life example, Jetta was our preference/hope in one draft, he got taken by Sydney a pick or two before we had our chance. He would have been a quality pick up, but the cards/draft didn't fall our way.

But if we lost to Sydney in that final and got in front of them that draft and took Jetta, he also may have left us as he did Sydney. Leaving Sydney, it's simply a player wanting to leave, yet if he leaves from us, "we don't have indigenous programs!! We suck!! That's the reason indigenous players leave!!"

And Dalrymple drafted two thirds of a premiership 22, and was arguably the best recruiter in the game across that time frame, so whatever his "best available" management was, worked.
 
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Yojimbo

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Liam Henry
Kysaiah Pickett
Elijah Taylor
Lachlan Johnson

Izak Rankine
Tarryn Thomas
Ian Hill
Irving Mosquito
Jarrod Cameron
Matthew Parker
Toby Bedford

Wil Powell
Tim Kelly
Liam Ryan
Jake Patmore
Jarrod Garlett

Sam Petrevski-Seton
Sam Powell-Pepper
Cedric Cox
Ben Long
Brandan Parfitt
Shai Bolton
Josh Williams
Kayle Kirby
Willie Rioli
Quinton Narkle
Dion Johnstone

Callum Ah Chee
Wayne Milera
Daniel Rioli
Jade Gresham
Harley Balic
Shane Yarran (RIP)
Yestin Eades

Jarrod Pickett
Paul Ahern
Nakia Cockatoo
Jarrod Garlett
Clem Smith
Jaden McGrath

Jarman Impey
Sean Lemmens
Malcolm Karpany
Dayle Garlett
Jay Kennedy-Harris
Jamie Bennell
Karl Amon
Zachary Williams

Josh Simpson
Tim Sumner
Brad Dick
Marley Williams
Murray Newman

Chad Wingard
Joel Hamling
Bradley Hill
Brendan Ah Chee
Cameron Ellis-Yolmen

Harley Bennell
Kirk Ugle
Jeff Garlett
Zephaniah Skinner

Apologies if i missed anyone or included some non-indigenous players, but we did not even have access to a lot of these players
as our first pick was later in the draft. There are a lot of zeros and quickly delisted on the list as well not to mention those who
had to amend their address details sometimes multiple times, quickly traded. You could use the Hawthorn argument here, did
they stop drafting because they botched a few and revert to target trading instead, yes ,but at least they had a Rioli, because
you have to have a Rioli to win a flag. Keep an eye on Malcolm Rosas Junior as Gold Coast have small forwards coming out of
their asses, i would have taken Brandan Parfitt in hindsight, but my phantom that year had Luke Ryan at our first pick from
memory.
 

Yojimbo

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Michael McLean
Jarrod Harbrow
Josh Hill

All three were better players elsewhere so maybe there is the answer within the question, trade them in between the ages of
twenty three to twenty five. Let the cheese mature somewhere else and then enjoy the vintage years instead of watching
while they perform in a different jumper which is frustrating.
 

Mutt

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Where did we have each and every indigenous player on our hitlist? How does that compare to where other clubs had them?

Unless you can answer that and make an informed comparison on exactly where we rated players and how that compares to other clubs, it's all assumptions based on how cards fell on draft night.

eg: Dalrymple may have had Tim Kelly ranked 17 or 18th on his list behind Ed Richards at 15, Geelong may have had Kelly ranked 22 or 23 - yet despite ranking him higher, Geelong is deemed open to Indigenous talent and we're seen as shunning it. Unless you can see these hitlists to confirm, I don't think we can make these kinds of calls.

A real life example, Jetta was our preference/hope in one draft, he got taken by Sydney a pick or two before we had our chance. He would have been a quality pick up, but the cards/draft didn't fall our way.

But if we lost to Sydney in that final and got in front of them that draft and took Jetta, he also may have left us as he did Sydney. Leaving Sydney, it's simply a player wanting to leave, yet if he leaves from us, "we don't have indigenous programs!! We suck!! That's the reason indigenous players leave!!"

And Dalrymple drafted two thirds of a premiership 22, and was arguably the best recruiter in the game across that time frame, so whatever his "best available" management was, worked.
I'm not trying to define the solution here because I don't know enough about the workings and inside culture of the club. I just know we have a problem.
 

Guido

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I'm not trying to define the solution here because I don't know enough about the workings and inside culture of the club. I just know we have a problem.
Unless you have the 100% proof that our draft team have consistently rated indigenous players lower than other clubs have in comparative hitlists, you do not "know" that we have a problem. It's an assumption - an assumption you're more than welcome to make, but it is not a fact.

We may in fact have rated many Indigenous players higher - we apparently rated Cockatoo higher than any other club, and I'm sure that would be the case for quite a few players over the years but the cards didn't fall a certain way on draft night. However as we don't have access to the club's draft ranking hitlists, we'll never know.

Look at Virgin Dog's analysis: 8 out of 10 drafts we either had with no missed opportunities or otherwise made a couple of 50/50 questionable/debatable choices (2 drafts). So overall, there's about 40 picks across those drafts where it was a marginal call or otherwise no Indigenous player in that range of the draft was a better option than the player we took.

And if you want change, you need to have an idea on what "solutions" look like - do we add a deliberate bias? And possibly overlook an English, Dunkley, Naughton, Bailey Smith to enact that solution? What about JJ? Should we have overlooked what we saw as the best available in the rookie draft and a future Norm Smith medallist just to get our ratio of indigenous players up? And potentially cost ourselves a GF win?

Who's going to pay the recruiters wages when he's sacked for overlooking what was his best available who turns out to be a superstar, for a Tambling, Sampi, Skinner or Djerkurra?
 

stefoid

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Mutt I dont know that we have a problem that is any more (or less) significant than historically being strugglers.

Lets face it, in the 80s to early 90s we were amateur hour compared to some other clubs with more money and supporters who 'modernized' while we were still basically a suburban club run by the lads. We were losing champion players to other clubs, rattling tins, and nearly always propping up the ladder. We had huge issues, and in that context, seeing to a decent program for looking after indigenous players would have been far, far down the priority list, behind getting some decent coaches and recruiters into the place, turning a profit, and winning some games of footy. In fact player welfare of any sort was probably not a high priority. (Im guessing).

We wernt some modern, rich, powerhouse club that was going great guns but mysteriously and suspiciously turned a blind eye to indigenous player welfare -- we were just crap at EVERYTHING, that included.

Embarrassing? well, yeah, but inexcusable? Id say fairly understandable. You dont need a conspiracy theory to explain incompetence.
 

Boristown

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North Melbourne
Unless you have the 100% proof that our draft team have consistently rated indigenous players lower than other clubs have in comparative hitlists, you do not "know" that we have a problem. It's an assumption - an assumption you're more than welcome to make, but it is not a fact.

We may in fact have rated many Indigenous players higher - we apparently rated Cockatoo higher than any other club, and I'm sure that would be the case for quite a few players over the years but the cards didn't fall a certain way on draft night. However as we don't have access to the club's draft ranking hitlists, we'll never know.

Look at Virgin Dog's analysis: 8 out of 10 drafts we either had with no missed opportunities or otherwise made a couple of 50/50 questionable/debatable choices (2 drafts). So overall, there's about 40 picks across those drafts where it was a marginal call or otherwise no Indigenous player in that range of the draft was a better option than the player we took.

And if you want change, you need to have an idea on what "solutions" look like - do we add a deliberate bias? And possibly overlook an English, Dunkley, Naughton, Bailey Smith to enact that solution? What about JJ? Should we have overlooked what we saw as the best available in the rookie draft and a future Norm Smith medallist just to get our ratio of indigenous players up? And potentially cost ourselves a GF win?

Who's going to pay the recruiters wages when he's sacked for overlooking what was his best available who turns out to be a superstar, for a Tambling, Sampi, Skinner or Djerkurra?
Some really logical rebuttals in your post.

There is a difference between 'knowing' and assuming, which you've argued nicely.
 

Yojimbo

Norm Smith Medallist
Nov 14, 2012
9,773
8,530
On the "Sweet Wagon"
AFL Club
Western Bulldogs
Michael McLean
Jarrod Harbrow
Josh Hill

All three were better players elsewhere so maybe there is the answer within the question, trade them in between the ages of
twenty three to twenty five. Let the cheese mature somewhere else and then enjoy the vintage years instead of watching
while they perform in a different jumper which is frustrating.
Three players is hardly an ample sample size Yojimbo you are going to have to come up with some better examples than that.

OK Yojimbo let us look at the plus 100 game players even if some of them are or were over twenty five.

Eddie Betts, Shaun Burgoyne, Charlie Cameron, Allen Christensen, Troy Cook, Jeff Farmer, Lance Franklin, Jeff Garlett, Des Headland,
Brad Hill, Jarman Impey, Lewis Jetta, Liam Jones, Dale Kickett, Derek Kickett, Andrew Krakouer, Phil Krakouer, Brandon Matera,
Steven May, Steven Motlop, Justin Murphy, Danyle Pearce, Byron Pickett, Richard Tambling, Patrick Ryder, Travis Varcoe,
Gavin Wanganeen, Sharrod Wellingham, Daniel Wells, Mark Williams, Chad Wingard, Nicky Winmar, Chris Yarran.

OK Yojimbo a couple of random names among the plus 100 game club, now name the players who played less than 100 games.
You are a pushy bastard i never liked you much, me neither.
 

footscray1973

Club Legend
May 17, 2004
1,874
2,076
Pepperland
AFL Club
Western Bulldogs
Other Teams
Footscray
Michael McLean
Jarrod Harbrow
Josh Hill

All three were better players elsewhere so maybe there is the answer within the question, trade them in between the ages of
twenty three to twenty five. Let the cheese mature somewhere else and then enjoy the vintage years instead of watching
while they perform in a different jumper which is frustrating.
I'd argue McLean's best football was played with us. At Brisbane he stood out as an experienced player in a mostly weak and young team.
He came into our side as an 18yo, and held his own, and played wing, half forward and half back with aplomb. Statistically slightly bigger
numbers at Brisbane, but I believe that is due to circumstance, and his relative roles in both teams. The young Magic of 84-85 would run
rings around the more experienced, but slower, McLean of the 90s.

Not really relevant to the overall discussion I know. I would also add he did not leave because of lack of support as an indigenous player,
but because the club low-balled his contract, based on injuries, and that they felt he was expendable. Whether the club considered his
heritage when making their decisions on him, who knows. Interestingly, when Koops came to the club, he specifically requested Magic's
#51 jumper because of the standing he was held in amongst indigenous players, and I've never heard Magic say anything negative about
the club as a whole (although he wasn't impressed with the contract offer, or Terry Wheeler!):


Sorry, not directing any of this at you Yojimbo, just don't think McLean fits the trend of why many other indigenous players came and went
so quickly.
 

Yojimbo

Norm Smith Medallist
Nov 14, 2012
9,773
8,530
On the "Sweet Wagon"
AFL Club
Western Bulldogs
Sorry, not directing any of this at you Yojimbo, just don't think McLean fits the trend of why many other indigenous players came and went
so quickly.
The fact that you acknowledge there is a trend i am going to take as a major victory or feather in my cap.

Apologies to these players left you off the list: Ronnie Burns, Xavier Clarke, Phil Egan, Fabian Francis, Andy Lovell, Gilbert McAdam,
Daniel Motlop. Sorry guys there are just so many of you it's hard to keep up.
 

footscray1973

Club Legend
May 17, 2004
1,874
2,076
Pepperland
AFL Club
Western Bulldogs
Other Teams
Footscray
The fact that you acknowledge there is a trend i am going to take as a major victory or feather in my cap.

Apologies to these players left you off the list: Ronnie Burns, Xavier Clarke, Phil Egan, Fabian Francis, Andy Lovell, Gilbert McAdam,
Daniel Motlop. Sorry guys there are just so many of you it's hard to keep up.
Should have clarified, I was referring to the trend at our club, not league-wide.
 

Yojimbo

Norm Smith Medallist
Nov 14, 2012
9,773
8,530
On the "Sweet Wagon"
AFL Club
Western Bulldogs
Should have clarified, I was referring to the trend at our club, not league-wide.
I think big and the trend is league wide as well as at our club.

Michael McLean:
Bulldogs: 95 x Games, 1,494 x Disposals, 15.73 Average.
Brisbane B&L: 88 x Games, 1,669 x Disposals, 18.97 Average.

We could settle it with Brownlow Votes accumulated, but you lose again. 1991 a truly "Magic" year, 17 x Brownlow Votes.
 

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