Bulldogs and Indigenous Players - Last 10 Years of Drafting

[footscray1973]

I think big and the trend is league wide as well as at our club.

Michael McLean:
Bulldogs: 95 x Games, 1,494 x Disposals, 15.73 Average.
Brisbane B&L: 88 x Games, 1,669 x Disposals, 18.97 Average.

We could settle it with Brownlow Votes accumulated, but you lose again. 1991 a truly "Magic" year, 17 x Brownlow Votes.

Statistics aren't everything. And Brownlow votes are in the eye of the beholder too. Ask Magic where he played his best footy?
I bet his answer won't be Brisbane.

 

[Yojimbo]

Statistics aren't everything. And Brownlow votes are in the eye of the beholder too. Ask Magic where he played his best footy?
I bet his answer won't be Brisbane.

OK, i will just give him a call.

Yojimbo : Magic, which was your best year ?
Magic : 1991 mate i smashed it got 17 Brownlow Votes my next best was 7.
Yojimbo : Thank you magic, you were enormous in 1991.

 

[King Harold]

OK, i will just give him a call.

Yojimbo : Magic, which was your best year ?
Magic : 1991 mate i smashed it got 17 Brownlow Votes my next best was 7.
Yojimbo : Thank you magic, you were enormous in 1991.

Too simplistic , i saw all of McLeans career.
His stats are skewed , he was was a mature experienced footballer when at the Bears. Played pretty much of half back , fair dinkum I would have looked good playing for them , they were sh*te.

Sent most of his time on a wing with us , always very talented , but took a couple of years to really get going.

Not sure if the argument is that relevant ?

 

[footscray1973]

Too simplistic , i saw all of McLeans career.
His stats are skewed , he was was a mature experienced footballer when at the Bears. Played pretty much of half back , fair dinkum I would have looked good playing for them , they were sh*te.

Sent most of his time on a wing with us , always very talented , but took a couple of years to really get going.

Not sure if the argument is that relevant ?

Thanks, you've reinforced my point. I understand Yojimbo is big on stats, but perhaps to the exclusion of actually watching players play.
There are many cases where stats are irrelevant, if not meaningless. Full backs used to get Brownlow votes for sub-5 possession games,
because they were in the best 3 players on the ground, and kept a gun full-forward to a low tally. Rick Kennedy was no Brian Lake
kick-and-mark-fest, but comparing their stats to determine their worth is pretty much a waste of time.

 

[footscray1973]

OK, i will just give him a call.

Yojimbo : Magic, which was your best year ?
Magic : 1991 mate i smashed it got 17 Brownlow Votes my next best was 7.
Yojimbo : Thank you magic, you were enormous in 1991.

As King Harold said, that is very simplistic. If you base all your analysis solely on stats and Brownlow votes, I have nothing else to add.

 

[Yojimbo]

Thanks, you've reinforced my point. I understand Yojimbo is big on stats, but perhaps to the exclusion of actually watching players play.
There are many cases where stats are irrelevant, if not meaningless. Full backs used to get Brownlow votes for sub-5 possession games,
because they were in the best 3 players on the ground, and kept a gun full-forward to a low tally. Rick Kennedy was no Brian Lake
kick-and-mark-fest, but comparing their stats to determine their worth is pretty much a waste of time.

1991: 589 Disposals best at the Bulldogs 304 1986 for memory.

My point was a lot of indigenous players fly the coup early in their careers and there should be a focus on getting them between
23 and 25 years of age, McLean, Harbrow and Hill were the examples i used. Koby Stevens and Joel Hamling were examples of
this coming back the other way. Statistics did not come into it, but maturity did.

 

[bobs head soup]

1991: 589 Disposals best at the Bulldogs 304 1986 for memory.

My point was a lot of indigenous players fly the coup early in their careers and there should be a focus on getting them between
23 and 25 years of age, McLean, Harbrow and Hill were the examples i used. Koby Stevens and Joel Hamling were examples of
this coming back the other way. Statistics did not come into it, but maturity did.

The problem is we have identified a number of established indigenous players and made reportedly very good offers to Martin, Tippa, Wingard, Impey and maybe a few others but they are clearly reticent to come here.

Becomes a chicken or the egg argument.

 

[Yojimbo]

The problem is we have identified a number of established indigenous players and made reportedly very good offers to Martin, Tippa, Wingard, Impey and maybe a few others but they are clearly reticent to come here.

Becomes a chicken or the egg argument.

It's not just us mate, Dale Kickett had five clubs many of the examples had multiple clubs. Here is an idea plucked out of nowhere
try contacting their management and ask why. The players you mentioned made a call show some interest get some feedback or
as they say watch history repeat itself over and over again. We and i laugh at North Melbourne and their quest to land a big trade
fish, but in reality are we any different ?

 

[bobs head soup]

It's not just us mate, Dale Kickett had five clubs many of the examples had multiple clubs. Here is an idea plucked out of nowhere
try contacting their management and ask why. The players you mentioned made a call show some interest get some feedback or
as they say watch history repeat itself over and over again. We and i laugh at North Melbourne and their quest to land a big trade
fish, but in reality are we any different ?

My point was that indigenous players are less likely to come here than other clubs because we don't have an established record of indigenous guys flourishing here.

Reportedly players like Martin and Wingard took less money to go to other clubs because they had more confidence in the other clubs cultures in relation to indigenous players.

That won't change until we have indigenous players here who are happy and who thrive. Hence my what cones first,vthe hicken or the egg analogy.

 

[Mutt]

Some really logical rebuttals in your post.

There is a difference between 'knowing' and assuming, which you've argued nicely.

Hi Boris. Nice to see you on here again.

I think that the evidence is overwhelming that we have a problem.

We have not recruited an indigenous player on our list for six years. We are the only club with no indigenous players. Rarely have we had even the AFL average number of indigenous players on our list - we've certainly not ever exceeded it. Whenever we've tried to entice a trade or a free agent to come to us in the past five years we've failed. There is a lot of evidence to suggest we have a problem.

 

[BEaston]

Some really logical rebuttals in your post.

There is a difference between 'knowing' and assuming, which you've argued nicely.

He's right that it's not certain that we've rated indigenous players lower than other clubs but even if we haven't, it's still pretty obvious that we have an issue in attracting and retaining indigenous players.

 

[Virgin Dog]

Hi Boris. Nice to see you on here again.

I think that the evidence is overwhelming that we have a problem.

We have not recruited an indigenous player on our list for six years. We are the only club with no indigenous players. Rarely have we had even the AFL average number of indigenous players on our list - we've certainly not ever exceeded it. Whenever we've tried to entice a trade or a free agent to come to us in the past five years we've failed. There is a lot of evidence to suggest we have a problem.

Just wanted to correct one point - while we haven't recruited indigenous players onto the senior list, we did recruit Tweedie as a Cat B rookie in 2016, meaning he did play for us in 2017. Unfortunately, he was poor and ended up delisted after the one year

 

[Mutt]

Just wanted to correct one point - while we haven't recruited indigenous players onto the senior list, we did recruit Tweedie as a Cat B rookie in 2016, meaning he did play for us in 2017. Unfortunately, he was poor and ended up delisted after the one year

Thanks VD - I stand corrected... but my point remains.

 

[Virgin Dog]

Thanks VD - I stand corrected... but my point remains.

To be fair, he fell in our laps as an NGA pick, so we didn't exactly go out of our way to recruit him. No indigenous picks in the main draft since ~2014 is not good regardless, so it doesn't invalidate your point

 

[Yojimbo]

My point was that indigenous players are less likely to come here than other clubs because we don't have an established record of indigenous guys flourishing here.

Reportedly players like Martin and Wingard took less money to go to other clubs because they had more confidence in the other clubs cultures in relation to indigenous players.

That won't change until we have indigenous players here who are happy and who thrive. Hence my what cones first,vthe hicken or the egg analogy.

I understand your point and fair enough, but you also need to understand the very nature of the indigenous players themselves.
I watched a lot of NT Thunder games and the NTFL games as well and there is no one size fits all approach, they are all very
individual and very different. When you hear Gilbert McAdam talk about being called a coconut, brown on the outside white in
the middle you quickly realize this is not a conversation instigated by white people it is used by fellow indigenous people. This
is a very complex argument there is no easy solution.

 

[bobs head soup]

I understand your point and fair enough, but you also need to understand the very nature of the indigenous players themselves.
I watched a lot of NT Thunder games and the NTFL games as well and there is no one size fits all approach, they are all very
individual and very different. When you hear Gilbert McAdam talk about being called a coconut, brown on the outside white in
the middle you quickly realize this is not a conversation instigated by white people it is used by fellow indigenous people. This
is a very complex argument there is no easy solution.

What you say is true. Every person, indigenous or not, is an individual and every recruitment selection has its own circumstances. Not sure that negates any of the above.

 

[stefoid]

I was surprised to find that roughly half the indigenous population lives in NSW and Queensland - as AFL gets more popular the % of indigenous players in the AFL could rise a fair bit.

 

[Sharkey66]

We were reportedly going to draft Ben Long from our vfl side when saints pounced with what was widely seen as a reach at the time.

 

[bobs head soup]

We were reportedly going to draft Ben Long from our vfl side when saints pounced with what was widely seen as a reach at the time.

There have been a few occassions where the cards haven't quite fallen our way.

Just last year it was widely reported that Melbourne were.going to take either Kysaiah Pickett or Cody Weightman with their 2nd top 10 pick and that we were keen on both with our pick just behind them.

They went Pickett so we missed another indigenous player we were keen on.

 

[DognBones]

I get that the statistics show we have difficulty attracting indigenous players from other clubs but I don't subscribe to the view that we go to the draft with negative attitudes about indigenous players. Knowing the quality of the people associated with our list management and coaching I cannot imagine how race comes into any of their decisions. I think we have made decisions based on need, based on our position in the draft order and the fact that we have been unlucky on some occasions to miss out on an indigenous player.
Further, I'm not sure that I understand the concept of 'culture' when it comes to differentiating between how one club supposedly provides a better environment than another. How does this work in real terms?
I do understand the issues that confront indigenous people and unfortunately there are still racist undertones in our society but I would have thought when a young indigenous man enters any AFL community nowadays they are embraced and treated with respect, just like everyone else.
Is the club a victim of some urban myth that we don't provide the appropriate 'culture' for indigenous players, whatever that means? Did this influence Jack Martin not to choose us when we reportedly made a huge bid for his services? Is there any evidence that an indigenous player left the club due to some issue with 'culture'? My view is that we will eventually have indigenous players on our list, we just need to find appropriate ones in the draft and prove that our 'culture' is as good as any one else's. A contrary reality doesn't bear thinking about.
Apologies for a somewhat rambling post but this issue is both complex and difficult to define.

 

[D Mitchell]

...
Apologies for a somewhat rambling post but this issue is both complex and difficult to define.

Don't apologise. There's more common sense in your post than just about any other in this thread, right up there with Yojimbo.

 

[godoggies15]

Another relevant point to this issue is that we recruited Brett Goodes (2013 - 2015) who played in our Footscray 2016 VFL flag. Brett went on to implement a Indigenous program for all Bulldog players. This program included visits to the Framlingham Mission. located near Warnambool, along with further introductions to Indigenous culture. There are more programs managed by the club that focus on diversity and Koori leadership, though not sure if Brett Goodes is still there. For me this clearly suggests that the club is fully aware of their social obligations to "inclusion" and "diversity". Then to read on the Jamarra Ugle link that there is some possibility that he is being treated unfairly by someone (or others) at the club appears to be unbelievable. So to believe there is some hidden agenda when it comes to recruiting Indigenous players would certainly go against the very nature on how the club is attempting to practice social inclusion.

 

[TBOW]

Sheesh, this is a bit of a clumsy conversation. It really hinges on the premise that all indigenous footballers are viewed as the same which is ludicrous.
There will be indigenous guys who would have no trouble stepping into any kind of football environment and there will be others who will need more support to adjust.

If there is a question to be asked of our recruiting team it is about their willingness to draft guys who don't fit a certain mold - and to be fair I do think we have a 'clean cut' type. But to suggest that it is anything to do with race is off the mark.

 

[Dazb86]

The club should just pick best available.

 

[Virgin Dog]

The club should just pick best available.

That's the point of the discussion - do we trust the club is picking best available when we have no indigenous players on the list? If it was definitely always best available, I would argue we shouldn't be a middle of the table team the last 4 years