Opinion Butcher

[Peck]

Who would you replace him with?

Daniel Stewart would give us more. Srs.

I don't think we need a third tall forward all that much, yes we can't rotate Westhoff as easily, but Lobbe can go forward with Trengove into the ruck or something if we are desperate, and Gray, Monfries, and Boak are all perfectly capable of playing FF/CHF when required.

 

[Peck]

I wouldn't be trading him. Hes got another year on his contract anyway.

But, he has to be out of the side this week. In 120 minutes of football in the last 2 weeks hes managed a combined total of 1 kick, which was a fluke. Its not good enough.

I think the constant 'didn't have a pre season' stuff is a bit of a copout, but he deserves a full pre season next year to put some strength into his hips and see what he can do.

I don't think his problem is that he didn't have a pre-season. I think its that he doesn't train hard enough, nor play hard enough. He needs a rocket.

 

[philthy05]

I'm saying it was crowded due to his poor leads. Its not hard to understand what that means... if two players lead two different ways it creates more space for each player but if one player leads like a headless chook into the same area or blocks the run of other forwards e.g. Schulz and Monfries it limits the space avaliable to those forwards. It's easy to say it has nothing to do with Butcher when you are watching the camera missing all of the off ball stuff. Added to that fact is your wrongful opinion that it had NOTHING to do with Butcher and was all the hbf taking risks out of the backline when the ball was rarely even in geelongs 50% of the ground in the last quarter...

lol so you are saying that butch didnt lead smart enough and was drawing a second defender into monfries space.

so two defenders is a crowd??

in the first half every forward entry had 20 players in the f50. thats a crowd. we were so slow to move the ball.

all of monfries goals came when he was one out in the f50. that has nothing to do with leading patterns. that has to do with cats players pushing up the ground and not working back quick enough when we moved the ball lightening quick from halfback

 

[Amstaff_]

Daniel Stewart would give us more. Srs.

I don't think we need a third tall forward all that much, yes we can't rotate Westhoff as easily, but Lobbe can go forward with Trengove into the ruck or something if we are desperate, and Gray, Monfries, and Boak are all perfectly capable of playing FF/CHF when required.

It wouldn't be hard to improve of what we are getting now.

 

[philthy05]

Ok then.

Let's just accept mediocre performances Primus style.

there is a difference between accepting mediocre performances and shunting a key forward out of the side at every opportunity.

also, your idea of not accepting mediocre performances is shunting butch out then bringing in d.stew or salts , who are both 26ish and havent established themselves in the afl yet and are not in good sanfl form... or to play with a single key forward, which we know hurts our structure as teams just gang up on shultz and have more flexibility with their talls.

 

[BornPort]

there is a difference between accepting mediocre performances and shunting a key forward out of the side at every opportunity.

also, your idea of not accepting mediocre performances is shunting butch out then bringing in d.stew or salts , who are both 26ish and havent established themselves in the afl yet and are not in good sanfl form... or to play with a single key forward, which we know hurts our structure as teams just gang up on shultz and have more flexibility with their talls.

Shunted out at every opportunity? He has been absolutely gifted an extended run at AFL level and he hasn't done anywhere near enough to justify it.

 

[Amstaff_]

there is a difference between accepting mediocre performances and shunting a key forward out of the side at every opportunity.

also, your idea of not accepting mediocre performances is shunting butch out then bringing in d.stew or salts , who are both 26ish and havent established themselves in the afl yet and are not in good sanfl form... or to play with a single key forward, which we know hurts our structure as teams just gang up on shultz and have more flexibility with their talls.

Nah I'm suggesting we playTrengove or someone like Blee uo forward.

I'd be very surprised if they didn't offer more than Butch is at the moment.

 

[El_Scorcho]

Nup. Different strokes for different blokes. Mids, runners etc is demanding and endurance training. Rucks, key forwards backs etc body strength, reaction time and short sharp sprint work. Body positioning and awareness/reaction training. But if you want to persist playing him forward, feel free. I,ve seen enough.

Forwards in modern football run almost as much as midfielders. Nick Riewoldt who should at least be in the All Australian squad is one of the best runners in the game. You can't get by unless you have a big engine in AFL football, and Butcher doesn't have the engine to keep himself in the game at this stage.

I've already been over that.

Jonas comes in and we use Blee as a lead up forward or Trengove depending on the opposition structures.

Moving Trengove up forward leaves an already short backline disastrously short. Blee simply isn't a KPP. I liked his game today, but he's not a marking forward and wouldn't necessarily be any better there than Butcher is.

Players improve by playing games of football. We carried Robbie Gray all season until the last few weeks, but he needed match time to get back into form. Butcher needs games. He's missed too much footy in his formative years already. Going back and playing for a shitful SANFL side that won't deliver him the ball will do absolutely nothing for his development.

We need talls up forward making contests. Yes, Butch has struggled the last couple of weeks, but the Essendon game should be all the evidence anyone needs to show that if we go too short in the forwardline with our average forward entry, we'll be absolutely cut to pieces by average sides, let alone Geelong.

 

[philthy05]

ummm. you think d.stew would be an improvement on what butch has given us the past 4 or 5 weeks??

seriously?? have you even watched d.stew go around at afl level.

his defender played off him so much it wasnt funny. he just never fronted up to the drop of the ball enough that his defender was alway so confident that he dropped off him and covered our other forwards.

if you find me more than 1 in 5 afl games where d.stew had more impact then his defender ill eat my hat, your hat , and everyone elses hats.

 

[*PAF]

Were not talking about Kozzi who is in his 30's and played 199 games dishing this up. He is 23 and played as many games - with no preseason. Ever.

Be silent.

22 not 23. He only turned 22 about a month ago.

 

[BornPort]

ummm. you think d.stew would be an improvement on what butch has given us the past 4 or 5 weeks??

seriously?? have you even watched d.stew go around at afl level.

his defender played off him so much it wasnt funny. he just never fronted up to the drop of the ball enough that his defender was alway so confident that he dropped off him and covered our other forwards.

if you find me more than 1 in 5 afl games where d.stew had more impact then his defender ill eat my hat, your hat , and everyone elses hats.

Butcher has been worse than Stewart. But I haven't actually seen anyone suggest we bring him in?

 

[BrockBlitz]

22 not 23. He only turned 22 about a month ago.

even more reason ! cheers for that pick up.

 

[El_Scorcho]

Nah I'm suggesting we playTrengove or someone like Blee uo forward.

I'd be very surprised if they didn't offer more than Butch is at the moment.

Trengove is far, far too important to an already undersized backline IMO.

Blee could be given a go but I don't know what about him you think will make him a great choice as a lead up forward, and a lead up forward isn't what we need anyway. We need genuine KPFs.

 

[El_Scorcho]

Butcher has been worse than Stewart.

Not over the journey he hasn't, and he's much younger with far more upside, as well as having the excuse of several injuries and no preseason.

 

[philthy05]

the idea that somebody who has failed before (d.stew) , or who shows no signs at being better than a guy you want out (blee)

over a guy who obviously has talent (we know butcher has talent. he didnt fluke those bags he kicked in his second year, he has shown signs this year) but has other question marks over his game namely being

-goalkicking is poor, lapses into old habits of not keeping his leg straight at times.

-fitness, doesnt have a pre-season to his name

-confidence. not in his body and not entirely in him self.

- strength. not being able to get his body right has meant he hasnt been able to do the strength and conditioning work he shouldve been doing.

now tell me how shunting him out of the side is good for the team or good for butcher. he needs two things. time to get his body right. no shortcuts here. playing afl football is going to be better for his fitness than sanfl football is a fact. and to develop his work ethic, you would hope that would come with fitness and confidence in his pressure but he does work pretty hard at times we know that.

 

[itisnt2hard]

Forwards in modern football run almost as much as midfielders. Nick Riewoldt who should at least be in the All Australian squad is one of the best runners in the game. You can't get by unless you have a big engine in AFL football, and Butcher doesn't have the engine to keep himself in the game at this stage.

Moving Trengove up forward leaves an already short backline disastrously short. Blee simply isn't a KPP. I liked his game today, but he's not a marking forward and wouldn't necessarily be any better there than Butcher is.

Players improve by playing games of football. We carried Robbie Gray all season until the last few weeks, but he needed match time to get back into form. Butcher needs games. He's missed too much footy in his formative years already. Going back and playing for a shitful SANFL side that won't deliver him the ball will do absolutely nothing for his development.

We need talls up forward making contests. Yes, Butch has struggled the last couple of weeks, but the Essendon game should be all the evidence anyone needs to show that if we go too short in the forwardline with our average forward entry, we'll be absolutely cut to pieces by average sides, let alone Geelong.

As you wish. Actions speak louder than words. On this one i disagree. You train big blokes alot different to the smaller blokes. But in your defence i suggest lets keep playing him in the forward line week in week out until when ever the year ends. He is just showing so much.

 

[philthy05]

Butcher has been worse than Stewart. But I haven't actually seen anyone suggest we bring him in?

without looking up the stats i would think butch has kicked more goals and taken close to if not more marks then d.stew , despite half as many games and being years years younger and not having d.stews years of pre-season on an afl list

 

[El_Scorcho]

Daniel Stewart would give us more. Srs.

I don't think we need a third tall forward all that much, yes we can't rotate Westhoff as easily, but Lobbe can go forward with Trengove into the ruck or something if we are desperate, and Gray, Monfries, and Boak are all perfectly capable of playing FF/CHF when required.

Westhoff is at his best when he's off the leash, and adds more to the side in that role.

Daniel Stewart will not give us more, has not given us more, has not shown anything to say that he would give us more in any of his opportunities. He averages less goals per game, and when people are suggesting Butch should be dropped because of lack of effort or impact, it's absolutely laughable that they'd suggest Daniel Stewart as his replacement, unless something pretty major has changed about the way Stewart goes about it.

 

[raman]

The only thing we'll achieve by dropping Butcher is anchoring Westhoff to the forward line and losing ourselves a match-winning link-man in the process.

 

[Wargreymon90]

I don't see why we can't give salter a chance

 

[BrockBlitz]

The only thing we'll achieve by dropping Butcher is anchoring Westhoff to the forward line and losing ourself a match-winning link-man in the process.

Sums up my thoughts entirely. Westy floating is incredible to our side.

 

[raman]

I don't see why we can't give salter a chance

Because he and D-Stew are gone-ski. No point.

 

[Wargreymon90]

Because he and D-Stew are gone-ski. No point.

According to who?

 

[raman]

According to a selection staff who choose put a current-form Butcher in ahead of them.

 

[BornPort]

Well if he continues it will be the biggest gold pass of all time. Would get more from a cardboard cut-out.