Opinion Butcher

[Grave Danger]

So what is your definition of a "journeyman"? A quick dictionary check for you:
journeyman
ˈdʒəːnɪmən/
noun

1. 1.
   a worker or sports player who is reliable but not outstanding.
   "a solid journeyman professional"

In Aussie sport it's usually applied, perhaps a bit too literally, to someone who's been at a number of different teams.

 

[El_Scorcho]

Jeez he was given enough games ... Look at DBJ ... Took his chance and owned it! Butch just couldn't do it.

You've done well here to name the one young player on our list barring megastars like Wingard and Wines who took his chance and played well every week.

If we only played players that did that, we'd be struggling to field a centre bounce quartet to start the game most weeks.

He wasn't given enough games. Had he played for any other club in the league he'd have been given more games to develop as every other club would have recognised the value of a blue chip KPF prospect and been patient with him. We could not have been less patient under Hinkley, to the point where you assume there was some sort of personality clash with him and the coaching staff.

In his second to last game with us he had 20 touches, 11 marks and 4 goals. In his last game with us he had a quiet game where we couldn't get the ball past halfway. And was made a scapegoat. Again.

 

[JUSTWORK]

You've done well here to name the one young player on our list barring megastars like Wingard and Wines who took his chance and played well every week.

If we only played players that did that, we'd be struggling to field a centre bounce quartet to start the game most weeks.

He wasn't given enough games. Had he played for any other club in the league he'd have been given more games to develop as every other club would have recognised the value of a blue chip KPF prospect and been patient with him. We could not have been less patient under Hinkley, to the point where you assume there was some sort of personality clash with him and the coaching staff.

In his second to last game with us he had 20 touches, 11 marks and 4 goals. In his last game with us he had a quiet game where we couldn't get the ball past halfway. And was made a scapegoat. Again.

Im not sure why everyone feels he was done by, he got longer with us then most clubs would have given him. after 7 years of being on and AFL list people where still talking about when he'll learn to kick.

The reason he didn't play more games is because, unfortunately we wasn't good enough, most weeks he'd do nothing (of very little) for the magpies getting playing second fiddle to Luke Renyolds as the magpies #1 Key forward.

 

[edgie]

Lol at the argument that Butcher had more time than us with any other club. Yes, that is true, but the flip side is he got less games with us than he would have at any other club.

Sent from my Lumia 800 using Tapatalk

 

[El_Scorcho]

Im not sure why everyone feels he was done by, he got longer with us then most clubs would have given him. after 7 years of being on and AFL list people where still talking about when he'll learn to kick.

The reason he didn't play more games is because, unfortunately we wasn't good enough, most weeks he'd do nothing (of very little) for the magpies getting playing second fiddle to Luke Renyolds as the magpies #1 Key forward.

For most clubs he would have played an extra 20 games by his 5th year on the list and we would have had a clearer indication of whether he was going to make it. We still never played him for more than 5 consecutive games. Not once. We never backed him in and we dropped him repeatedly after the team had a bad game. Dropping your developing second/third tall after the team has a shocker and he gets zero delivery is ****ing moronic.

In 2014 he had a really good game against the Crows where he had a hand in a lot of goals and kicked the go-ahead goal in the 3rd quarter. The next week he had a quiet game against North where the team was awful and he was dropped for Sam Gray to come in and play as a small forward.

In 2015 he plays a reasonable game in a tough loss to Freo where we get absolutely fisted in the ruck against Sandi and Zach Clarke. Hinkley drops him and brings in the least fit player to have played an AFL game since the 80s in Jarrad Redden who managed 6 hitouts in what stands out head and shoulders above anything as the worst selection decision i've ever seen.

In 2016 he played the best game of his career in a BOG performance against Brisbane, kicking 4 and topping the fantasy points. He was then quiet in the worst game I can remember seeing our team play against Sydney and was dropped for that performance.

It's classic Hinkley and co making a scapegoat of a guy who is easily droppable when he's been let down by his teammates all day. Every single club in the league bar ours would have backed him in and given him a better run at it. The list of players who have managed more games and more strings of games for Port Adelaide during Butcher's career despite doing sweet fa is staggering.

 

[El_Scorcho]

Seriously.

Matt Thomas 87 games for the Port Adelaide Football Club.
Cam O'Shea 81 games
Andrew Moore 55 games
Jake Neade 51 games and counting, having kicked 4 more goals in 20 more games than Butcher
Daniel Stewart 36 games
Cameron Hitchcock 35 games
Kane Mitchell 35 games
Sam Gray 34 games, and has played some reasonable footy but was picked as a forward to replace Butcher.

John Butcher 31 games.

But yeah nah it was just that Butch wasn't up to it, if he'd played better football like Matt Thomas or Cameron Hitchcock or Jake Neade he would have held his spot

 

[Tibbs]

You've done well here to name the one young player on our list barring megastars like Wingard and Wines who took his chance and played well every week.

If we only played players that did that, we'd be struggling to field a centre bounce quartet to start the game most weeks.

He wasn't given enough games. Had he played for any other club in the league he'd have been given more games to develop as every other club would have recognised the value of a blue chip KPF prospect and been patient with him. We could not have been less patient under Hinkley, to the point where you assume there was some sort of personality clash with him and the coaching staff.

In his second to last game with us he had 20 touches, 11 marks and 4 goals. In his last game with us he had a quiet game where we couldn't get the ball past halfway. And was made a scapegoat. Again.

Oh, what absolute RUBBISH! Your Butcher-blindness has sullied your perception and common sense!
DBM ... Debuted as mentioned.... OWNED IT
Dougal Howard ... Young, inexperienced, chucked into the cauldron .... OWNED IT
Logan Austin ... Ditto ... Just got better and better! Now in many's first-22 .... OWNED IT
Sam Gray ... Thrown back into SANFL time and again, just demanded reselection ... OWNED IT
Tom Clurey ... Thought by many to be hard done by too ... Just gone about his business ... READY

And while we are at it, let's compare apples with apples...as you say, all our other top-10 draftees have taken their chances and become "megastars" ... Butcher was consistently mediocre at SANFL level, but yeah, let's reward him will AFL selection! And then you laighably say other teams would have? Seriously? If Butcher was at Sydney or Hawthorn, he would have been delisted years ago! And now you want to keep him coz he finally got 20 touches... after 7 yrs?

No! The reality was that Butch had undeniably become a team-distracting sideshow. Justifiably cut! Butcher's only hope is that now that the pressure is off, he can go away and do a Brett Eddy ... Go and OWN the SANFL ... Show is what you are made of!

 

[El_Scorcho]

Oh, what absolute RUBBISH! Your Butcher-blindness has sullied your perception and comment sense!
DBM ... Debuted as mentioned.... OWNED IT
Dougal Howard ... Young, inexperienced, chucked into the cauldron .... OWNED IT
Logan Austin ... Ditto ... Just got better and better! Now in many's first-22 .... OWNED IT
Sam Gray ... Thrown back into SANFL time and again, just demanded reselection ... OWNED IT
Tom Clurey ... Thought by many to be hard done by too ... Just gone about his business ... READY

And while we are at it, let's compare apples with apples...as you say, all our other top-10 draftees have taken their chances and become "megastars" ... Butcher was consistently mediocre at SANFL level, but yeah, let's reward him will AFL selection! And then you laighably say other teams would have? Seriously? If Butcher was at Sydney or Hawthorn, he would have been delisted years ago! And now you want to keep him coz he finally got 20 touches... after 7 yrs?

No! The reality was that Butch had undeniably become a team-distracting sideshow. Justifiably cut! Buddy'ssheet shot is that now that the pressure is off, he can go away and do a Brett Eddy ... Go and OWN the SANFL ... Show is what you are made of!

DBM i'll give you.
Dougal Howard played 6 games, was dropped twice and never kicked more than a single goal. He looks promising but OWNED IT in all capitals is gilding the lily like nobody's business.
Logan Austin i'll give you as well, but he's still a project player.
Sam Gray had a string of good games then a bunch of very poor ones. He's played a lot more anonymous footy than good in his career thus far.
Tom Clurey has been pretty good but is still developing.

If Butcher played for Sydney or Hawthorn, he'd have played a stack of extra games, even if he had been delisted. Sam Reid is still on Sydney's list after being taken in the same draft as Butcher, being given 98 games and averaging less than a goal a game, because Sydney are patient and understand that bigs need time to develop at AFL level.

Name me the last high production SANFL key forward who went on to have a good AFL career. It's probably Scott Hodges, if you count his AFL career as good. Eddy was a good get and I think he'll do well for us, but he's a complete unknown at AFL level thus far and there is absolutely zero history of good SANFL key forwards becoming good AFL key forwards in the modern era.

 

[El_Scorcho]

Butcher kicked more goals against Brisbane than Howard did in his 6 games in 2016.

I shouldn't have to unfairly disparage Howard because I rate him really highly, but you're just making shit up if you think that he hit the ground running and was head and shoulders above Butcher's performances in 2016. He's a project player. If he apply the same standards to him that we did to Butcher, he'll probably only get a handful of AFL games over the next few seasons.

Hopefully we've learned our lesson and back him in and give him a good run of games to establish himself once he's fit.

 

[Visenfest]

Oh, what absolute RUBBISH! Your Butcher-blindness has sullied your perception and common sense!
DBM ... Debuted as mentioned.... OWNED IT
Dougal Howard ... Young, inexperienced, chucked into the cauldron .... OWNED IT
Logan Austin ... Ditto ... Just got better and better! Now in many's first-22 .... OWNED IT
Sam Gray ... Thrown back into SANFL time and again, just demanded reselection ... OWNED IT
Tom Clurey ... Thought by many to be hard done by too ... Just gone about his business ... READY

And while we are at it, let's compare apples with apples...as you say, all our other top-10 draftees have taken their chances and become "megastars" ... Butcher was consistently mediocre at SANFL level, but yeah, let's reward him will AFL selection! And then you laighably say other teams would have? Seriously? If Butcher was at Sydney or Hawthorn, he would have been delisted years ago! And now you want to keep him coz he finally got 20 touches... after 7 yrs?

No! The reality was that Butch had undeniably become a team-distracting sideshow. Justifiably cut! Butcher's only hope is that now that the pressure is off, he can go away and do a Brett Eddy ... Go and OWN the SANFL ... Show is what you are made of!

The only tall forward from the group you listed is Dougal Howard. I love him, and he seems like a good prospect, but it's a bit much to say that he's performed better than Butch. His output so far actually isn't that high.

 

[Ford Fairlane]

This isn't specifically a crack at Butcher, you hear this often about clubs not developing a player or that player getting a raw deal.

But at the end of the day you have to consider that 17 other clubs could have taken him in a trade, or as a DFA, or in the national draft, or in the PSD, or in the rookie draft. A 197cm key forward in his mid 20s with 30 gmes of AFL experience. And where is he playing? Centrals. Are they all wrong? Do a few people in a supporter base know better than all these people that work at every club?

I wanted Butch to succeed as much as anyone but at the end of the day you have to think the marketplace has spoken. Hopefully Butch can have some good sanfl footy (I can't bring myself to say with Centrals) and puts his hand up for another chance.

 

[Ford Fairlane]

The only tall forward from the group you listed is Dougal Howard. I love him, and he seems like a good prospect, but it's a bit much to say that he's performed better than Butch. His output so far actually isn't that high.

And most of the guys on Scorcho's list play around the ball and those guys are always likely to get more opportunities as these are the bulk of positions on the field. Half (four) of that group only played around 30 games anyway and of those, three are delisted just like Butch.

At some point you have to concede the brick wall is still standing but there's a lot of blood coming from your forehead.

 

[Tibbs]

Seriously.

Matt Thomas 87 games for the Port Adelaide Football Club.
Cam O'Shea 81 games
Andrew Moore 55 games
Jake Neade 51 games and counting, having kicked 4 more goals in 20 more games than Butcher
Daniel Stewart 36 games
Cameron Hitchcock 35 games
Kane Mitchell 35 games
Sam Gray 34 games, and has played some reasonable footy but was picked as a forward to replace Butcher.

John Butcher 31 games.

But yeah nah it was just that Butch wasn't up to it, if he'd played better football like Matt Thomas or Cameron Hitchcock or Jake Neade he would have held his spot

Delusional! You keep comparing apples with oranges! Stewart, Hitchcock, Thomas, O'Shea, were all played when we were absolute CRAP. A number of these, eg, Mitchell, Grey, Moore, at al, were "gifted" games as green-vesters - Something you couldn't do with a 198cm KPF. Luck of the draw! Players like O'Shea filled a needed gap, but were always stop-gap, journeyman players that would make way as our developing players stepped up. Luck of the draw! Many of these like Moore and Mitchell (A R McLean medal winner), smashed it in the SANFL, and were rightly rewarded with games.

Meantime, Butcher JUST kept spudding it up in the SANFL ... Sorry, that's not correct - He did get 20 touches in his 2nd last game!

 

[Lagooner]

This isn't specifically a crack at Butcher, you hear this often about clubs not developing a player or that player getting a raw deal.

But at the end of the day you have to consider that 17 other clubs could have taken him in a trade, or as a DFA, or in the national draft, or in the PSD, or in the rookie draft. A 197cm key forward in his mid 20s with 30 gmes of AFL experience. And where is he playing? Centrals. Are they all wrong? Do a few people in a supporter base know better than all these people that work at every club?

I wanted Butch to succeed as much as anyone but at the end of the day you have to think the marketplace has spoken. Hopefully Butch can have some good sanfl footy (I can't bring myself to say with Centrals) and puts his hand up for another chance.

In no way does that justify the decision to cut him, especially considering our pathetic KPF stocks, nor absolve the club of responsibility for his poor development over the journey.

If anything it's an indictment of the latter.

 

[Tibbs]

The only tall forward from the group you listed is Dougal Howard. I love him, and he seems like a good prospect, but it's a bit much to say that he's performed better than Butch. His output so far actually isn't that high.

That's cause he is the only other tall forward we have had in the last 7 fricking years waiting to develop!
ITM, let's compare him with, Mitchell, O'Shea, Gray, Hitchcock, and the like getting games!

 

[Lagooner]

That's cause he is the only other tall forward we have had in the last 7 fricking years waiting to develop!
ITM, let's compare him with, Mitchell, O'Shea, Gray, Hitchcock, and the like getting games!

Don't get caught up in making direct comparisons between Butcher and these other players.

There is a larger structural issue to consider here i.e. driving lone gun Schulz into an early retirement because we had (have?) a perennial hard on for short people and flankers and refused to play an extra KPF to help him out.

 

[Tibbs]

In no way does that justify the decision to cut him, especially considering our pathetic KPF stocks, nor absolve the club of responsibility for his poor development over the journey.

If anything it's an indictment of the latter.

He was a distracting sideshow mate. It was actually embarrassing when he got games and kicked for goal that every player on the ground, and every port supported in the stands were holding their breath, and clenching the butt cheeks, as they prayed he would actually get boot to leather!

Honestly it was part of the sickness of this club in '15/16. It is better for both him and the club to part ways! I am enjoying having passionate debates on it now... But so glad the sideshow is over.

 

[Alyx]

Every time I see this thread bumped, I am reminded of a certain 1,310-page thread from a foreign board. Apples and oranges in terms of circumstances, I know, but the point I am trying to make is this: How many more times are you going to rehash the same arguments?

Why, now, does it matter if Butcher was 'a dud who squandered his opportunities' or 'harshly treated' and 'not given enough opportunities'? What is it going to change? How long before posters from both sides realise there is nothing to gain, accept that what's done is done, and finally move on? The man himself has probably made less of a drama of it than some here have.

Surely we have current players more deserving of this same level of attention and effort?

 

[Ford Fairlane]

In no way does that justify the decision to cut him, especially considering our pathetic KPF stocks, nor absolve the club of responsibility for his poor development over the journey.

If anything it's an indictment of the latter.

If it was just a question of development, another club would take the punt on a guy who is essentailly young for a tall guy and think they can turn him around if they think he has the basic tools. We hung onto Toby Thurstans for 4 years befoe he played a single game and he played 100 games including a premiership. Hawthorn took a delisted one game Stephen Gilham as a rookie and turned him into a premiership player. Clubs will take a chance where they see something, especially in a 197cm key forward.

How could we have developed him differently other than give him more games? If the coaches didn't think he deserved games should he have been given them anyway? He was played as the go to forward at sanfl level. He was given runs in the ruck and defence to develop his all round game.

There's not much point retaining a guy on a list if you've shown you're not prepared to pick him, so why wouldn't you cut him and give him a chance somewhee else?

 

[Lagooner]

If it was just a question of development, another club would take the punt on a guy who is essentailly young for a tall guy and think they can turn him around if they think he has the basic tools. We hung onto Toby Thurstans for 4 years befoe he played a single game and he played 100 games including a premiership. Hawthorn took a delisted one game Stephen Gilham as a rookie and turned him into a premiership player. Clubs will take a chance where they see something, especially in a 197cm key forward.

How could we have developed him differently other than give him more games? If the coaches didn't think he deserved games should he have been given them anyway? He was played as the go to forward at sanfl level. He was given runs in the ruck and defence to develop his all round game.

There's not much point retaining a guy on a list if you've shown you're not prepared to pick him, so why wouldn't you cut him and give him a chance somewhee else?

Like I said above, this ties in with the broader structural issues that we've had. Should we have persisted with him for more than a couple of games at a time rather than giving the spot to Anonymous Flanker X instead? Yeah, wouldn't have hurt in the long run.

I think Butcher is probably seen as damaged goods now. It's not hard to imagine other clubs thinking they can get someone younger with less issues to work through. Don't get me wrong, it's not just one thing and Butcher is partly to blame for his situation, but we share some of the responsibility here too.

The "he just wasn't good enough!!1!!" herpa derp drives me nuts and ignores the bigger issues.

 

[Tibbs]

DBM i'll give you.
Dougal Howard played 6 games, was dropped twice and never kicked more than a single goal....
Logan Austin i'll give you as well, but he's still a project player.
Sam Gray had a string of good games then a bunch of very poor ones. He's played a lot more anonymous footy than good in his career thus far.
Tom Clurey has been pretty good but is still developing.

Name me the last high production SANFL key forward who went on to have a good AFL career.

Your defence is no defence! To start with, these "project" players can actually kick a football!
They were consistently playing well at SANFL level. They looked like "players", not a flaying windmill.
They kept improving and growing at AFL level.

As for Sammy Gray, yes he got dropped! And that is the point! What did he do after? He stuck it up the selectors, and went away and got 40 touches in the snaffel. Butch just went anonymous. He had the talent, but lacked that killer mindset that makes champions.

As Papa says above, and you have made the point beforeChe was good for our structure. But how long do you persist?

 

[El_Scorcho]

Delusional! You keep comparing apples with oranges! Stewart, Hitchcock, Thomas, O'Shea, were all played when we were absolute CRAP. A number of these, eg, Mitchell, Grey, Moore, at al, were "gifted" games as green-vesters - Something you couldn't do with a 198cm KPF. Luck of the draw! Players like O'Shea filled a needed gap, but were always stop-gap, journeyman players that would make way as our developing players stepped up. Luck of the draw! Many of these like Moore and Mitchell (A R McLean medal winner), smashed it in the SANFL, and were rightly rewarded with games.

Meantime, Butcher JUST kept spudding it up in the SANFL ... Sorry, that's not correct - He did get 20 touches in his 2nd last game!

Yeah 6 goals less than Reynolds in 1 less match, and 8th in the SANFL goalkicking in just 16 games, averaging more than 2 goals a game. What a SPUD!

Leading our SANFL goalkicking in 2014 and 2015, how DID this SPUD stay on our list for so long?!?!?!?

 

[El_Scorcho]

Your defence is no defence! To start with, these "project" players can actually kick a football!
They were consistently playing well at SANFL level. They looked like "players", not a flaying windmill.
They kept improving and growing at AFL level.

As for Sammy Gray, yes he got dropped! And that is the point! What did he do after? He stuck it up the selectors, and went away and got 40 touches in the snaffel. Butch just went anonymous. He had the talent, but lacked that killer mindset that makes champions.

As Papa says above, and you have made the point beforeChe was good for our structure. But how long do you persist?

It's very easy to rack up touches in the SANFL. It's not very easy as a key forward to kick a lot of goals, because they play AFL style team defence and the skills aren't good enough to kick through it.

Ken Farmer Medalists kick about 65 goals a season. Maybe one or two other players crack 50 goals. Someone averaging 2 goals a game in the SANFL is doing better than someone averaging 25 touches.

The SANFL and AFL are very different leagues and it takes very different things to succeed, which is why the likes of Brant Chambers and Michael Wundke looked $1,000,000 at SANFL level as goalkickers but were never considered at AFL level. Butch showed plenty of promise at AFL level, and plenty of promise at SANFL level, where he was our spearhead forward for the past 3 seasons and managed to regularly kick goals in that time.

 

[Tibbs]

Yeah 6 goals less than Reynolds in 1 less match, and 8th in the SANFL goalkicking in just 16 games, averaging more than 2 goals a game. What a SPUD!

Leading our SANFL goalkicking in 2014 and 2015, how DID this SPUD stay on our list for so long?!?!?!?

Mate... That wasn't a very hard feat to accomplish! He did that playing badly! Stats can lie so badly!

I will be very interested to see what Eddy does next year. That sort of dominance of the snaffel is what I wanted to see from Butch

Edit....

It's very easy to rack up touches in the SANFL. It's not very easy as a key forward to kick a lot of goals, because they play AFL style team defence and the skills aren't good enough to kick through it.....

It's not about stats .... You have to move on from that! It's about what he DID AFTER being dropped. Sammy (and others) went back and smashed their position at snaffel level. Butch would kick 3 goals, but would be unseen for three quarters.... Not once, but time and again!

Not good enough!

 

[El_Scorcho]

Mate... That wasn't a very hard feat to accomplish! He did that playing badly! Stats can lie so badly!

I will be very interested to see what Eddy does next year. That sort of dominance of the snaffel is what I wanted to see from Butch

Oh yeah leading goalkickers are always bad players who kick a lot of goals while playing badly.

That sort of dominance means very little, because if Eddy makes a good AFL career he'll be the first Ken Farmer Medallist in the AFL era to do so.

It's a totally different league with a different style of football.