Play Nice Bye Bye Brad #3 [Locked: BS signs 2-year ext. Aug-2017, tied to NM until end 2020]

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Wild Bill

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The very definition of outlier.

Sheedy
Roos
Clarkson
Pagan
Williams
Longmire
Beveridge

All snared their 1st flag inside 3-4 seasons. Then there are some exceptions like Malthouse who at least took the side into a grand final within that timeframe.

Thompson at the cats is the extreme exception. The list had been exceptionally built and they had a charmed father-son run.

And using Thompson : Scott as a direct comparison, starting exactly 10 years apart - we're due this year's flag then. :stern look
Clarkson took over in 2005:
The 2004 draft they picked up Roughy, Buddy and Lewis with picks 2, 4 and 7!!
The 2005 draft they picked up Ellis, Birchall, Bailey, Guerra & McGlynn

2004 - bottom 4
2005 - bottom 4


We need to bottom out - it does not matter if its Scott or a new coach - we need top draft picks and we need to nail them.
 

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kangatime

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Judge was sacked in 2001 - they added Judd, Sampi with pick 3 and 6, Seaby 22, Hanson 38 and Dean Cox from the Rookie draft - all 5 played in the premiership team. Cox and Judd were outstanding players.

Also in 2001 - Kerr was 18 and just played his 1st year. Again - timing can be everything.

They smashed the 2001 super draft, got out of the 2002 dud draft with Daniel Chick for pick 8 an picked up Selwood who won a B&F at pick 53.

They were the best team for 2 drafts in a row - its a massive leg up. Worsfold didn't waive a magic wand and turned a dud team into a premiership one.

2000 - bottom 4
2001 - bottom 4

This is where their premiership came from.
That there is some pretty good player development. I wonder if the coach had anything to do with that.

Basically what you saying is you want the team to fail. Such a true supporter.

If we bottom out now then the philosophy of the last 7 years have been a complete balls up. Scotts has banged on and on about how we didn't give up draft picks, we kept them to secure our long term development. If we bottom out now then he has failed, he should have traded away those picks and had a real shot at getting another star or 2 to make the difference between 5th-8th and 1st-4th.
 
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Clarkson took over in 2005:
The 2005 draft they picked up Ellis, Birchall, Bailey, Guerra & McGlynn
2004 - bottom 4
2005 - bottom 4
Those players are hardly an argument in your favour in terms of having to bottom out before you can achieve success. Birchall has been good for them, rest very meh.

You seem fixated on players. In essence it appears you do not rate who coaches the players as there will be no variance, just how many low draft picks you have on your list dictates your future? Not the gameplan, standards applied and/or willingness to work hard for each other?

After seeing Melbourne, Carlton, GC etc do nothing for years, that to me is an invalid argument.

Having top draft picks helps sure, as do gun FS's, but you still need a quality coach to get the best of them - which we don't.
 

utility

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Instead I was delighted that the coach and the club, having ended the careers of 4 great players last year, chose to put their "money where their mouths are" and blooded 4 young boys for their first senior game. 4 first gamers. I don't think any other club did that in Round 1 so well done and in my opinion each of those boys showed a bit and more importantly will be so much better for having got a taste.
I'm sure Mastermind can add more to this but...

I can't recall the last time we have blooded four first gamers - or any team blooding four first games.

I do recall three players (Petrie, Harris, Smith) in Round 1 in 2001. We were coming off a Prelim Final loss in 2000 and had a 9-13 season. That was 16 years ago.

We still need a core of senior players like Swallow, Hanson, Thompson, etc. who may have deficiencies but have hardened bodies. If you want only kids playing then have a look at the first two years of the Suns and Giants.

Clearly the measures for success this year are different from last year, and Scotts will be judged differently.
 

Wild Bill

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That there is some pretty good player development. I wonder if the coach had anything to do with that.

Basically what you saying is you want the team to fail. Such a true supporter.

If we bottom out now then the philosophy of the last 7 years have been a complete balls up. Scotts has banged on and on about how we didn't give up draft picks, we kept them to secure our long term development. If we bottom out now then he has failed, he should have traded away those picks and had a real shot at getting another star or 2 to make the difference between 5th-8th and 1st-4th.
Cox and Kerr wouldn't have been any good without Worsefold developing them? Your having a laugh now.

Scott might not be the right person but a new coach is going to need top end talent to make us a premiership challenger. This draft is meant to be loaded and a great place to start.
 

Wild Bill

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Those players are hardly an argument in your favour in terms of having to bottom out before you can achieve success. Birchall has been good for them, rest very meh.

You seem fixated on players. In essence it appears you do not rate who coaches the players as there will be no variance, just how many low draft picks you have on your list dictates your future? Not the gameplan, standards applied and/or willingness to work hard for each other?

After seeing Melbourne, Carlton, GC etc do nothing for years, that to me is an invalid argument.

Having top draft picks helps sure, as do gun FS's, but you still need a quality coach to get the best of them - which we don't.
If you don't get your top picks correct - like the Dees and Blues have done for years your not going to improve.

The Dees have finally done it and are now on the move. Clayton Oliver was BOG on the weekend at pick 4, Hogan massive - 2 in the mini draft which would have seen him go top 3 in his draft year, Petracca and Brayshaw look great at pick 2 & 3!!

2, 2, 3 & 4 who are very good players is a big reason they will push for a flag in the coming years.
 

Wild Bill

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I'm sure Mastermind can add more to this but...

I can't recall the last time we have blooded four first gamers - or any team blooding four first games.

I do recall three players (Petrie, Harris, Smith) in Round 1 in 2001. We were coming off a Prelim Final loss in 2000 and had a 9-13 season. That was 16 years ago.

We still need a core of senior players like Swallow, Hanson, Thompson, etc. who may have deficiencies but have hardened bodies. If you want only kids playing then have a look at the first two years of the Suns and Giants.

Clearly the measures for success this year are different from last year, and Scotts will be judged differently.
Hanson & Gibson should not be seen until round 23 when they get a farewell game. Swallow needs to be pushed out by years end.

Play the kids - work out who will make it - get some top draft picks and start to rebuild.
 

kangatime

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Cox and Kerr wouldn't have been any good without Worsefold developing them? Your having a laugh now.

Scott might not be the right person but a new coach is going to need top end talent to make us a premiership challenger. This draft is meant to be loaded and a great place to start.
So, we need high draft picks...but only if we pick the right players, the ones that will be stars.
We need some other stars to come from higher draft picks, but we have to pick the sort of guys that are going to be stars regardless of what the coaching staff do.

Sounds to me like we need to get rid of our entire coaching staff as they obviously have no influence in player development. Lets make JZ captain coach are pour all our money into the recruitment/scouting teams.

I'm glad you've finally come around to the Sack Scotts view point.
 

Wild Bill

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So, we need high draft picks...but only if we pick the right players, the ones that will be stars.
We need some other stars to come from higher draft picks, but we have to pick the sort of guys that are going to be stars regardless of what the coaching staff do.

Sounds to me like we need to get rid of our entire coaching staff as they obviously have no influence in player development. Lets make JZ captain coach are pour all our money into the recruitment/scouting teams.

I'm glad you've finally come around to the Sack Scotts view point.
If you don't have the cattle you ain't winning a premiership - no matter if you are best at player development and the greatest coach in the history of the game. Starts with recruitment - its the biggest key to winning a flag.
 
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I see plenty of similarities between footy clubs and the average work place. A group of managers, employees, work practices and results. You recruit a young kid out of uni, hope they know what their doing, you teach them how to do their jobs, you measure them, you reward them if they succeed and try to support them if they fail and if the company doesn't go well then you make the manager redundant.
 

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If you don't have the cattle you ain't winning a premiership - no matter if you are best at player development and the greatest coach in the history of the game. Starts with recruitment - its the biggest key to winning a flag.
Recruitment is important I agree, but no matter how great recruitment is it will not be successful if poorly coached/managed.

Which of course is the counter argument (which I agree with) that no matter how good a coach is, there won't be flags unless the adequate cattle is present.

I believe both may be true regarding North, which is why we changed one and now need to change the other.
 

DesertRoo

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If you don't have the cattle you ain't winning a premiership - no matter if you are best at player development and the greatest coach in the history of the game. Starts with recruitment - its the biggest key to winning a flag.
I feel this is a nature vs nurture debate.

I believe none of those players mentioned would be the same players without the coaching staff pushing them.
 

Royal Flush

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I see plenty of similarities between footy clubs and the average work place. A group of managers, employees, work practices and results. You recruit a young kid out of uni, hope they know what their doing, you teach them how to do their jobs, you measure them, you reward them if they succeed and try to support them if they fail and if the company doesn't go well then you make the manager redundant.
Not an accurate analogy . The kids drafted are the best of the best.
Probably a closer but not accurate analogy would be the countries top law firms taking the cream of graduates . Their managers and CEOs came from the same universities They are likely be successful . With AFL
Coaches on the other hand are speculative specimens. They are rarely stars in the draft and in lots of current examples hadn't even played at the highest level.
I am a firm believer that the chemistry of the club's coaching department, management and luck in the draft build a champion club.
Very hard to predict and measure.
Would another coach have developed our players better, most likely. Would some of our picks developed better at other club's, I suspect so.

Sent from my EVA-L09 using Tapatalk
 

Wild Bill

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I feel this is a nature vs nurture debate.

I believe none of those players mentioned would be the same players without the coaching staff pushing them.
WCE was a disaster off field and the coaches lost all control of the party life style of the players. The players were good enough to win a flag.
 

Palmezzz

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I think the Sack Scott thing is overdone for now, Its round one everyone might as well be behind him until we can confidently say our seasons in shambles. The weekend loss is very hard to blame on Scott, the only thing you can criticize him for is the picking of Hansen,Gibson and Swallow. other than that even guys who we can rely on like Higgins were butchering the ball. I'm certain Brad does not teach the boys to turn it over with dreadful skill errors 100 times.
 

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Judge was sacked in 2001 - they added Judd, Sampi with pick 3 and 6, Seaby 22, Hanson 38 and Dean Cox from the Rookie draft - all 5 played in the premiership team. Cox and Judd were outstanding players.

Also in 2001 - Kerr was 18 and just played his 1st year. Again - timing can be everything.

They smashed the 2001 super draft, got out of the 2002 dud draft with Daniel Chick for pick 8 an picked up Selwood who won a B&F at pick 53.

They were the best team for 2 drafts in a row - its a massive leg up. Worsfold didn't waive a magic wand and turned a dud team into a premiership one.

2000 - bottom 4
2001 - bottom 4

This is where their premiership came from.
And that's the point....can we stomach 2/3 years down the bottom.

This board couldn't handle it.
 

Wild Bill

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Recruitment is important I agree, but no matter how great recruitment is it will not be successful if poorly coached/managed.

Which of course is the counter argument (which I agree with) that no matter how good a coach is, there won't be flags unless the adequate cattle is present.

I believe both may be true regarding North, which is why we changed one and now need to change the other.
With 2 top 5 picks and 2 more in the top 10 it's not enough top end quality. Don't care who was coaching our club.
 

Wild Bill

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And that's the point....can we stomach 2/3 years down the bottom.

This board couldn't handle it.
Its the only way to be a real chance to build for a flag. I can only think of 1 team that didn't need a couple of years in the bottom 4 to be able to end up with a flag.
 

Orange Peanut

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I spoke to a guy from a local footy club who had Brett Ratten come and share some insights.
Ratten said the biggest eye opener at Hawthorn was how experimental Clarkson is. He will go up to Ratten before - or during - a game, and say "we are doing this", and give him a game tactic or structure they've never discussed before. The first couple of times he did it, Ratten said "we can't, we haven't practiced it". Clarkson's response was "so what? If we **** it up, we'll switch back."
Ratten reckons at Carlton, he was so scared to lose, he would practice every play dozens of times before even trusting the players to implement it in a game. He was so risk averse, it made him inflexible.

Listening to all this, I couldn't help wondering whether this is the exact malaise that has befallen our coach. And if so, whether giving fewer ****s about losing as it's a "development" year could be the difference between his apparent inflexibility, and the potential emergence of an elusive Plan B?

I still have hope. But it's draining away.
 
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I think the Sack Scott thing is overdone for now, Its round one everyone might as well be behind him until we can confidently say our seasons in shambles. The weekend loss is very hard to blame on Scott, the only thing you can criticize him for is the picking of Hansen,Gibson and Swallow. other than that even guys who we can rely on like Higgins were butchering the ball. I'm certain Brad does not teach the boys to turn it over with dreadful skill errors 100 times.
Good point so what do you think he'll do about it?
 
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I think the Sack Scott thing is overdone for now, Its round one everyone might as well be behind him until we can confidently say our seasons in shambles. The weekend loss is very hard to blame on Scott, the only thing you can criticize him for is the picking of Hansen,Gibson and Swallow. other than that even guys who we can rely on like Higgins were butchering the ball. I'm certain Brad does not teach the boys to turn it over with dreadful skill errors 100 times.
I have no faith in scotts anymore. You just know he aint going to change his ways now. His inflexibility on game day to make changes when the game is starting to slip away from us, then he will finally make a change when we are 6-7 goals down. His stubbornness of not playing the kids, yes i know we had 4 new draftees play on the weekend but that's crap. Should of blooded a few last year when injuries struck. Example why did it take nikky dal to miss for clarke to debut last year or even evw to get a game or 2 last year under his belt.
 

shniko11

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If you don't get your top picks correct - like the Dees and Blues have done for years your not going to improve.

The Dees have finally done it and are now on the move. Clayton Oliver was BOG on the weekend at pick 4, Hogan massive - 2 in the mini draft which would have seen him go top 3 in his draft year, Petracca and Brayshaw look great at pick 2 & 3!!

2, 2, 3 & 4 who are very good players is a big reason they will push for a flag in the coming years.
So in the end everything has to go right and u might get it wrong a few times and get the wrong coaches aswell.
Not surprised that when they got their 3/4 coach in Pau Roos everything started working.
 

Wild Bill

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I spoke to a guy from a local footy club who had Brett Ratten come and share some insights.
Ratten said the biggest eye opener at Hawthorn was how experimental Clarkson is. He will go up to Ratten before - or during - a game, and say "we are doing this", and give him a game tactic or structure they've never discussed before. The first couple of times he did it, Ratten said "we can't, we haven't practiced it". Clarkson's response was "so what? If we **** it up, we'll switch back."
Ratten reckons at Carlton, he was so scared to lose, he would practice every play dozens of times before even trusting the players to implement it in a game. He was so risk averse, it made him inflexible.

Listening to all this, I couldn't help wondering whether this is the exact malaise that has befallen our coach. And if so, whether giving fewer ****s about losing as it's a "development" year could be the difference between his apparent inflexibility, and the potential emergence of an elusive Plan B?

I still have hope. But it's draining away.
One of the greatest teams in the history of the game. Buddy, Roughead, Mitchell, Hodge, Lewis, Roili, Burgoyne - gives you freedom to do what ever you like. They would have all been exceptional in any team they played in.

Hodge went at 1, Roughey 2, Buddy 4, Lewis 7, Rioli and Burgoyne both at 12.
 
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