Play Nice Bye Bye Brad #3 [Locked: BS signs 2-year ext. Aug-2017, tied to NM until end 2020]

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Le Grille

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What do you think firstly?
I was surprised he was give the keys to the reset.

That said, I think he didn't/doesn't have the luxury of having the truly elite players on the list as pretty much every other successful team has had. Harvey to be fair was close, if not there but the successful teams seem to have multiple premium players. I posted earlier about the lack of top 10 picks over the last 15 years, part of that can be explained by the need for us to continue to be competitive. This is a double edged sword, firstly you don't get access to the top kids but also it can get hard to create different gameplans because when you have to be consistently competitive, you become risk adverse.

Do we question his development of players? or is it more that we dont have the quality? His regular season W/L would be similar to Laidley's but our percentage would have be higher under Scott, but keep in mind Scott had access to far more resources than Dean.

Even our FAs we picked up weren't at the peak of their powers when we got them.

Basically the only way I would say sack him is if there was someone better.
 
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Do we question his development of players? or is it more that we dont have the quality? His regular season W/L would be similar to Laidley's but our percentage would have be higher under Scott, but keep in mind Scott had access to far more resources than Dean.

Even our FAs we picked up weren't at the peak of their powers when we got them.

Basically the only way I would say sack him is if there was someone better.
I take on board what i deleted ^ s there's various views to be made on what Scott has access to etc.

Laidley did better with his resources than Scott. Had half a team of chumps and made a prelim, we've had an already handy list built to suit, new facilities, FA selections and still couldn't even get top 4......I'd say both aren't flag worthy senior coaches regardless how they're split.

How can you sack a coach "knowing" the replacement would be better?

Did Dogs know sacking McCartney (who helped build their list) for Beveridge was guaranteed "better"? Same for Clarkson, Longmire etc?

I'd suggest not, the clubs just wanted to move on, and they took a risk which may or may not pay off.......as we need to do with Scott who's had much more time.
 

Le Grille

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I take on board what i deleted ^ s there's various views to be made on what Scott has access to etc.

Laidley did far better with his resources than Scott. Had half a team of chumps and made a prelim, we've had a list built to suit, new facilities, FA selections and still couldn't even get top 4......I'd say both aren't flag worthy senior coaches regardless how they're split.

How can you sack a coch "knowing" they would be better? Did Dogs know sacking McCartney (who helped build their list) for Beveridge was guaranteed "better"? I'd suggest not, they just wanted to move on as McCartney didn't deliver........as per Scott who's had much more time.
I think a hybrid of Brad and Dean would be the ideal coach they both have strengths in where the other has weaknesses.

Yeah I agree there is an element of risk taking on an untried coach, what I mean is say either a proven coach (eg a Clarkson) or a highly rated assistant (eg Bolton, Simpson (at the time he was taken by the Eagles)). I would say those in the industry would be able to better identify talented coaches.
 

Wild Bill

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I take on board what i deleted ^ s there's various views to be made on what Scott has access to etc.

Laidley did better with his resources than Scott. Had half a team of chumps and made a prelim, we've had an already handy list built to suit, new facilities, FA selections and still couldn't even get top 4......I'd say both aren't flag worthy senior coaches regardless how they're split.

How can you sack a coach "knowing" the replacement would be better?

Did Dogs know sacking McCartney (who helped build their list) for Beveridge was guaranteed "better"? Same for Clarkson, Longmire etc?

I'd suggest not, the clubs just wanted to move on, and they took a risk which may or may not pay off.......as we need to do with Scott who's had much more time.
Scott also went through the introduction of FA and the two new teams entering the comp. He did a very good job of keeping the players we had - we did not lose an Ablett, Ward, Mummy, Davis, Shaw etc to GWS or Suns.

Greenwood was the 1st to leave after 1 decent season took a big offer from the Pies - we have enough ball butches as it is.
Wells the other with a 3 year contract and by the look of that move its not a big loss.

Also top 10 picks were pushed out to mid to late teens with the ridiculous draft concessions handed to both expansion clubs.
 

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Someone who has a tactical mind and is not afraid to not play favourites/be honest with people upfront is what we need

Scott is treated like a friend with the team, you see videos where they call him mate and it drives me nuts. You don't call your boss at work mate and if you don't perform you get drawn over hot coals. Why can't our team do this when nearly every other team seems to be effective at doing it
 

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He was stiff - Carey exploded in 93. A kid named McAdam debuted and kicked 7, 10, 6, 3, 3 & 9 in his first 6 games. Schwass 23, Archer 22, Stevens 22, Rock 22 & we recruited Blakey.

Perfect storm for old Dennis. Still think he left 1 behind in the 90's.
LOL. I'll give you "He was Stiff". In 1991 we finished in eighth spot missing the six by a game and massive percentage. In 1992 we dropped further down the ladder finishing 12th with a 7 win 15 loss record. 1993 commenced with a 147 point loss humiliation in a preseason match against Adelaide. That was back in the days when the Preseason Comp was taken far more seriously by clubs. It was quite clear that Schimma as coach was a bust. With the same list Pagan turned things around and managed to have us playing finals in 1993. THE SAME LIST. The coach made a difference. And don't forget that Pagan coached North Melbourne's Under 19s to a number of Premierships and also managed to coach Essendon to a Reserves Premiership. Sure he failed at Carlton but he was a success for the rest of his coaching tenure. I'll post it in your native tongue. Gobble, Gobble, Gobble. :stern look
 

ferball

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His ingame stuff hurst at times but overall he is a good coach. I think with the kids we will see even less tactical flexibility because the 'teaching' mantra will be in full effect. And by teaching I mean "this is our structure, you need to learn it".

Skills, ****, where do you start. Handballing to feet, handballing to where blokes were, not where they are going, yada yada yada.

I've been thinking about skills.

I think its actually JZ's responsibility.

Lets face it. None of those people are gonna be on an AFL list with even something like actual average skills. They all have way better skills than most people. Its a matter of implementing them during the game. If that is not happening and the most obvious culprit is the captain (and was the last captain) then the captain needs to fix it. He needs to spend time outside official training honing his skills. They are not good enough right now. They need to be much better - he needs to set the example that things change now, with him in charge.

He obviously needs more passing practise. He needs to work at being cooler and lowering his eyes. Over and above what he already does as part of his official training. other players need to see him doing it and then it needs to have results. Does he want to lead a flag winning team or just be an AFL captain in a mediocre team? Its all in front of him right now and if he does that he could lead the team to a flag.

That is what leadership is all about.

Setting the required standard, and when necessary doing the work required to improve to meet that standard.

Its not all about the coach. He can't drop Jack after one game where he got 30+ possessions. But if Jack were honest with himself he'd know he should have done better with his kicking into the forward line. All that said - If Jack isn't capable of that level of self assessment and criticism and Scott or someone else senior isn't prepared to to deliver it then that is an indictment on Scott's coaching and his seeming lenient attitude toward under performing players.

But its one game in and we haven't even seen the response to the loss against the WC. Given the last 2 seasons its too early to assume Scott will be doing that, or that its all about his unwillingness to change. That might have been a product of a particular tilt at the flag and the injuries that ended it. Its also a bit pessimistic to assume that its all about to go to shit. It was heaps worse in r1 2015 and that season turned out alright. This season we blooded 4 players and had 1 new captain who played a courageous game but (as we learned watching or listening to the game) needs to play more thoughtful ones. Hopefully he can learn.

I agree Scott is a good coach. I hope we see more tactical flexibility, that I'm wrong and he felt the best tactical response over the last 2 seasons was what he actually did (with a bit of luck and some straight kicking it might have been,) and things are different now but also agree we might not because he has young kids to mold, or just can't be flexible. He has his weaknesses but everyone does.
 

Shermanator

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I've been thinking about skills.

I think its actually JZ's responsibility.

Lets face it. None of those people are gonna be on an AFL list with even something like actual average skills. They all have way better skills than most people. Its a matter of implementing them during the game. If that is not happening and the most obvious culprit is the captain (and was the last captain) then the captain needs to fix it. He needs to spend time outside official training honing his skills. They are not good enough right now. They need to be much better - he needs to set the example that things change now, with him in charge.

He obviously needs more passing practise. He needs to work at being cooler and lowering his eyes. Over and above what he already does as part of his official training. other players need to see him doing it and then it needs to have results. Does he want to lead a flag winning team or just be an AFL captain in a mediocre team? Its all in front of him right now and if he does that he could lead the team to a flag.

That is what leadership is all about.

Setting the required standard, and when necessary doing the work required to improve to meet that standard.

Its not all about the coach. He can't drop Jack after one game where he got 30+ possessions. But if Jack were honest with himself he'd know he should have done better with his kicking into the forward line. All that said - If Jack isn't capable of that level of self assessment and criticism and Scott or someone else senior isn't prepared to to deliver it then that is an indictment on Scott's coaching and his seeming lenient attitude toward under performing players.

But its one game in and we haven't even seen the response to the loss against the WC. Given the last 2 seasons its too early to assume Scott will be doing that, or that its all about his unwillingness to change. That might have been a product of a particular tilt at the flag and the injuries that ended it. Its also a bit pessimistic to assume that its all about to go to shit. It was heaps worse in r1 2015 and that season turned out alright. This season we blooded 4 players and had 1 new captain who played a courageous game but (as we learned watching or listening to the game) needs to play more thoughtful ones. Hopefully he can learn.

I agree Scott is a good coach. I hope we see more tactical flexibility, that I'm wrong and he felt the best tactical response over the last 2 seasons was what he actually did (with a bit of luck and some straight kicking it might have been,) and things are different now but also agree we might not because he has young kids to mold, or just can't be flexible. He has his weaknesses but everyone does.
I get the feeling no one would be harder on Jack Ziebell than Jack Ziebell.
 

Wild Bill

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LOL. I'll give you "He was Stiff". In 1991 we finished in eighth spot missing the six by a game and massive percentage. In 1992 we dropped further down the ladder finishing 12th with a 7 win 15 loss record. 1993 commenced with a 147 point loss humiliation in a preseason match against Adelaide. That was back in the days when the Preseason Comp was taken far more seriously by clubs. It was quite clear that Schimma as coach was a bust. With the same list Pagan turned things around and managed to have us playing finals in 1993. THE SAME LIST. The coach made a difference. And don't forget that Pagan coached North Melbourne's Under 19s to a number of Premierships and also managed to coach Essendon to a Reserves Premiership. Sure he failed at Carlton but he was a success for the rest of his coaching tenure. Now you may be too thick to understand the above so I'll post it in your native tongue. Gobble, Gobble, Gobble. :stern look

So you credit our success in the 90's Pagan? Carey was much more important. It all started with his 93 season. Great timing for Denis.

He had a 37% winning record at the Blues. There is a reason the coach of the team of the decade was named coach of the year only once.

Stern chook has turned into a stern turkey with his gobbles.
 

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shintemaster

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I'd like to think he has far harsher performance measures than you think this year though, we're supposed to be sustained success club according to Brad hence why kept picks etc, going to the bottom just because we retire a few geriatrics doesn't suggest that at all (regardless of whether in our best interests).
I'm assuming that "sustained success" doesn't mean we never drop away from the 8. More that there is enough ongoing drafting consistency to ensure that the next realistic tilt is only ever 18-24 months away when we slip - rather than 5 year rebuilds (boom and bust).
 

ferball

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Which brings me to this:

Hey Ferza, I to "wish" we win the Premiership under Scotts this year but I don't "think" it will happen. I don't "think" he is capable of coaching us to a Premership. In one of your most recent posts in this thread you highlight some of Scotts weaknesses. They aren't the qualities of a Premiership winning coach. :stern look
Firstly I might be wrong.

But

They might be the qualities of a premiership winning coach if he acknowledges them and takes steps to remediate them. Also (back to jack again) the Captain could recognise this and take on the responsibility of making tactical decisions and stuff onfield. Might cause a bit of tension but if its works it will creative tension. If tactical decision making is Scott's weakness and he can accept that he needs people around him who recognise that, can make tactical decisions and aren't afraid of making their point. If he can't recognise it himself then he will suck and the next two seasons will as well and you'll be right - we won't win a flag.

But honestly there were times he showed enough flexibility last year to make me think he might be learning. Can't remember them offhand but I know I mentioned them in post game autopsies last year.

Also how often do awesome moves win games these days? I know it was a huge thing in days gone by but is it still? Cos it isn't something I notice very often.

I think on field leadership is a bigger problem than the coaching sometimes, well did last year. We'll see this year.

I thought its not lack of courage or commitment that caused the problems, more lack of imagination. If that is because Scott is so systems driven he stifles players creativity then that is a massive problem but is there much real evidence for that being the case? Ben Cunnington is in our side and I think he is amazingly creative when he puts his mind to it. Seemingly nonchalant players often are, because they take the time to assess and are often more situationally aware. So they place themselves where they have the extra split second and use that time to their advantage. Much as I love spitta and JZ its not something I'd associate with them.

Perhaps our on field problems are that we need more onfield cooler heads who are capable of taking charge and have footy smarts. Not that our coach isn't a coaching genius with tactically brilliant moves dribbling out his orifices.
 

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I think a hybrid of Brad and Dean would be the ideal coach they both have strengths in where the other has weaknesses.

Yeah I agree there is an element of risk taking on an untried coach, what I mean is say either a proven coach (eg a Clarkson) or a highly rated assistant (eg Bolton, Simpson (at the time he was taken by the Eagles)). I would say those in the industry would be able to better identify talented coaches.
Scott was a highly rated assistant, as was his brother, as were Neeld, Bailey and others. Every untried coach is a risk (proven assistants less risky than favourite sons with no experience, but still a risk) and every tried coach carries the risk their magic may not flow to the new club.

You'd have to be pretty sure your list is underachieving or your best players have started going backwards to start again with a new coach. The worse things are, the bigger chance you'd be prepared and able to take. Whe North is right now, I can't see a better option that's worth the risk - I'd make an exception for Clarkson, but no-one else I can think of.
 

Hearts to hearts

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Which brings me to this:



Firstly I might be wrong.

But

They might be the qualities of a premiership winning coach if he acknowledges them and takes steps to remediate them. Also (back to jack again) the Captain could recognise this and take on the responsibility of making tactical decisions and stuff onfield. Might cause a bit of tension but if its works it will creative tension. If tactical decision making is Scott's weakness and he can accept that he needs people around him who recognise that, can make tactical decisions and aren't afraid of making their point. If he can't recognise it himself then he will suck and the next two seasons will as well and you'll be right - we won't win a flag.

But honestly there were times he showed enough flexibility last year to make me think he might be learning. Can't remember them offhand but I know I mentioned them in post game autopsies last year.

Also how often do awesome moves win games these days? I know it was a huge thing in days gone by but is it still? Cos it isn't something I notice very often.

I think on field leadership is a bigger problem than the coaching sometimes, well did last year. We'll see this year.

I thought its not lack of courage or commitment that caused the problems, more lack of imagination. If that is because Scott is so systems driven he stifles players creativity then that is a massive problem but is there much real evidence for that being the case? Ben Cunnington is in our side and I think he is amazingly creative when he puts his mind to it. Seemingly nonchalant players often are, because they take the time to assess and are often more situationally aware. So they place themselves where they have the extra split second and use that time to their advantage. Much as I love spitta and JZ its not something I'd associate with them.

Perhaps our on field problems are that we need more onfield cooler heads who are capable of taking charge and have footy smarts. Not that our coach isn't a coaching genius with tactically brilliant moves dribbling out his orifices.
I agree the big move - player X from backline to forward or whatever to change the game - is kind of an outdated concept. Sort of Sheedy vintage. The Hawthorn model of training and playing, however, so almost everyone can play somewhere else if it will help, and regularly move about during games, seems to have been keeping everyone fresh and oppositions on their toes.
 

Zondor

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So you credit our success in the 90's Pagan? Carey was much more important. It all started with his 93 season. Great timing for Denis.

He had a 37% winning record at the Blues. There is a reason the coach of the team of the decade was named coach of the year only once.

Stern chook has turned into a stern turkey with his gobbles.
Yes you do need players with talent at your disposal as coach to be a success but it is more than that. Carey played a big part in our success in the 1990's but so did Pagan. Without his teaching and guidance the improvement in the likes of Carey and Co would have stalled. It certainly wasn't going anywhere under Schimma. You see Bills to coach is to teach. To improve those who you are guiding. To ochestrate a game plan to nullify the opposition and capitalise on your player's strenghs. There is a reason why every sporting organisation around the world have coaches. Some people make better coaches than others. You fail to comprehend this notion continuing to argue that coaches aren't important. Explain to me how Leicester City won the English Premier League last season? Surely Claudio Ranieri had something to do with this? Because if you were to look at their list they didn't have the quality of players that many of the other Premier League clubs possessed. Once again I'll repeat the above in your native tongue. Gobble, Gobble, Gobble. :stern look
 
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Zondor

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They might be the qualities of a premiership winning coach if he acknowledges them and takes steps to remediate them.
I've said it before ferball. Scotts needs to look into that Mirror and understand his weaknesses. We all have improvement in us. :stern look
 

Wild Bill

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Yes you do need players with talent at your disposal as coach to be a success but it is more than that. Carey played a big part in our success in the 1990's but so did Pagan. Without his teaching and guidance the improvement in the likes of Carey and Co would have stalled. It certainly wasn't going anywhere under Schimma. You see Bills to coach is to teach. To improve those who you are guiding. To ochestrate a game plan to nullify the opposition and capitalise on your player's strenghs. There is a reason why every sporting organisation around the world have coaches. Some people make better coaches than others. You fail to comprehend this notion continuing to argue that coaches aren't important. Explain to me how Leicester City won the English Premier League last season? Surely Claudio Ranieri had something to do with this? Because if you were to look at their list they didn't have the quality of players that many of the other Premier League clubs possessed. Once again I'll repeat the above in your native tongue. Gobble, Gobble, Gobble. :stern look
Lol - without Pagan - Carey's improvement would have stalled. Your doing a lot of name calling yet this belongs on the essendon delusional pearler thread!!!

Thanks for the laugh.
 

Wild Bill

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I've said it before ferball. Scotts needs to look into that Mirror and understand his weaknesses. We all have improvement in us. :stern look
And your improvement in your understanding of the game.

I am now convinced you have never been involved at any sporting organisation of note.

Carey's improvement would have stalled!!! Pure Gold!!!
 

Zondor

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And your improvement in your understanding of the game.

I am now convinced you have never been involved at any sporting organisation of note.

Carey's improvement would have stalled!!! Pure Gold!!!
Pagan got the best out of Carey. Remember that. There have been plenty of Young Guns out there who under the wrong guidance didn't amount to much.

And funny how your have completely ignored the questions relating to Leicester City's Premier League Title Last Season. And on Sporting Organisations of Note, they all have coaches. Why? C'mon Bills answer the question. Why? The question you continue to ignore.
 
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Pagan got the best out of Carey. Remember that. There have been plenty of Young Guns out there who under the wrong guidance didn't amount to much.

And funny how your have completely ignored the questions relating to Leicester City's Premier League Title Last Season. And on Sporting Organisations of Note, they all have coaches. Why? C'mon Bills answer the question. Why? The question you continue to ignore.

You're in that corner and there is no way out. I laugh at the stupid who think that they are intelligent. That's you. A clueless twit making little sense with their argument. Ignoring the questions at hand with idiotic rebuttals. The life of a Turkey. Gobble, Gobble, Gobble. :stern look
I'm with you Zondor AND you do know Ranieri has been sacked??!! Not sure if that helps or hinders your argument.

Any ho, on Pagan. it was he that came up with the game plan to suit Carey. He was also the one that would throw Carey into the middle when needed. And I'm sure he would have assisting in developing Carey. It's like saying G Ablett Jnr was always going to be a star, when it actually took the leadership group of Geelong to get it up and going.

Just makes you think how good Lachie Hansen could have been with a decent coach!
 

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I'm with you Zondor AND you do know Ranieri has been sacked??!! Not sure if that helps or hinders your argument.

Any ho, on Pagan. it was he that came up with the game plan to suit Carey. He was also the one that would throw Carey into the middle when needed. And I'm sure he would have assisting in developing Carey. It's like saying G Ablett Jnr was always going to be a star, when it actually took the leadership group of Geelong to get it up and going.

Just makes you think how good Lachie Hansen could have been with a decent coach!

So your on the same page that Carey's improvement would have stalled without Pagan? Just a good ordinary player without Denis?

You can back you little mate up as much as you like but this has to be too much - even for you.
 

Zondor

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I'm with you Zondor AND you do know Ranieri has been sacked??!! Not sure if that helps or hinders your argument.

Any ho, on Pagan. it was he that came up with the game plan to suit Carey. He was also the one that would throw Carey into the middle when needed. And I'm sure he would have assisting in developing Carey. It's like saying G Ablett Jnr was always going to be a star, when it actually took the leadership group of Geelong to get it up and going.

Just makes you think how good Lachie Hansen could have been with a decent coach!
Yeah it is unreal with Ranieri getting the sack. The Premier League is far more ruthless on their coaches than the AFL is unless you're Arsenal. :stern look

Yeah and the last time I checked opening the forward line to allow Carey and Co to strut their stuff was called Pagan's Paddock. I wonder why? Thanks for pointing that out mav. :thumbsu:
 

Zondor

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So your on the same page that Carey's improvement would have stalled without Pagan? Just a good ordinary player without Denis?

You can back you little mate up as much as you like but this has to be too much - even for you.
Hey Carey under Alan Jeans would have been a star. You are missing the point. Imagine for a moment Carey under Mark Neeld. :stern look
 
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