Play Nice Bye Bye Brad #3 [Locked: BS signs 2-year ext. Aug-2017, tied to NM until end 2020]

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Wild Bill

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People are seriously distilling Pagan's success solely down to Carey?

How about his ability to get the most out of both workhouse and "x-factor" types of players?

Of understanding which players to push hard and which players to ease off on?

His perseverance with reluctant players like McKernan and Archer?

The switching around of gameplans with fair success?

The ability of North Melbourne under Pagan to almost always peak in September.

The bloke was a great man manager at North Melbourne over a period of sustained success.

One thing we always did under Denis and to a lesser extent Dean and almost never under Brad was no matter where we were positioned that year, have the ability to take out some top teams regardless. There was always a sting in the tail.

Pagan won us 2 flags. Stop over-simplifying it.
We should have won more with the team we had. Never said solely - Carey was more important in 90's.

I don't think it was a coincidence that between 1993 - 2000 our lowest finish was 7th in 1997 - the year Carey did his shoulder and missed 12 weeks. But lucky he game back and played put on one of the greatest wet weather displays in that 1st final V the Cats. 2nd V 7 he takes 10 marks and kicks 7 of our 11 goals. Only 1 Roo had more disposals and 3 Cats.

Archer reluctant? To do what?

Ease off and push others? He screamed at everyone - from Carey to the boot studder. It was one of his best traits.

Never under Brad did we have the ability to take out some top teams? In 2014 we were the only team to defeat every team in the top 8. We actually defeated every team from 1 - 10.
 

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We should have won more with the team we had. Never said solely - Carey was more important in 90's.

I don't think it was a coincidence that between 1993 - 2000 our lowest finish was 7th in 1997 - the year Carey did his shoulder and missed 12 weeks. But lucky he game back and played put on one of the greatest wet weather displays in that 1st final V the Cats. 2nd V 7 he takes 10 marks and kicks 7 of our 11 goals. Only 1 Roo had more disposals and 3 Cats.

Archer reluctant? To do what?

Ease off and push others? He screamed at everyone - from Carey to the boot studder. It was one of his best traits.

Never under Brad did we have the ability to take out some top teams? In 2014 we were the only team to defeat every team in the top 8. We actually defeated every team from 1 - 10.
It was "almost never". So one season in eight can still qualify.
 

kangatime

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We should have won more with the team we had. Never said solely - Carey was more important in 90's.

I don't think it was a coincidence that between 1993 - 2000 our lowest finish was 7th in 1997 - the year Carey did his shoulder and missed 12 weeks. But lucky he game back and played put on one of the greatest wet weather displays in that 1st final V the Cats. 2nd V 7 he takes 10 marks and kicks 7 of our 11 goals. Only 1 Roo had more disposals and 3 Cats.

Archer reluctant? To do what?

Ease off and push others? He screamed at everyone - from Carey to the boot studder. It was one of his best traits.

Never under Brad did we have the ability to take out some top teams? In 2014 we were the only team to defeat every team in the top 8. We actually defeated every team from 1 - 10.
ah, 2014. The year we beat every top team, including equal top team in a Semi final. But apparently we had no talent.
 
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ah, 2014. The year we beat every top team, including equal top team in a Semi final. But apparently we had no talent.
Unless you are a top 10 draft pick you automatically can't play.

If you are a top 10 pick you will automatically be successful.

Coaching has no bearing on the success of the team or player development.

Am I doing this right?
 
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We should have won more with the team we had. Never said solely - Carey was more important in 90's.

I don't think it was a coincidence that between 1993 - 2000 our lowest finish was 7th in 1997 - the year Carey did his shoulder and missed 12 weeks. But lucky he game back and played put on one of the greatest wet weather displays in that 1st final V the Cats. 2nd V 7 he takes 10 marks and kicks 7 of our 11 goals. Only 1 Roo had more disposals and 3 Cats.

Archer reluctant? To do what?

Ease off and push others? He screamed at everyone - from Carey to the boot studder. It was one of his best traits.

Never under Brad did we have the ability to take out some top teams? In 2014 we were the only team to defeat every team in the top 8. We actually defeated every team from 1 - 10.
Brush up on your North history mate if the middle 2 paragraphs don't make sense.

Agree on 2014, I was referring to the nature of the upset. Under Denis we almost always knocked over the flavour of the month side even if we were flagging at the time.
 

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RobZombie

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You think leaving one of the goat players 1 out and using bash and crash footy to get the ball forward any way possible was genius? The paddock was basic and very effective due to Carey being exceptional.
The paddock, or as Pagan himself originally called it, the "three-quarter ground concertina", was invented to take advantage of Tudor's speed in the U19s, pushing up then running back forward. It was only later that he realised it was just as effective at isolating Carey. That and his low-possession direct style I reckon still have echoes rippling through the current gameplan.

FWIW, I always thought Pagan's genius in the '90s wasn't so much tactical as managing a team of big personalities and egos.
 

Wild Bill

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The paddock, or as Pagan himself originally called it, the "three-quarter ground concertina", was invented to take advantage of Tudor's speed in the U19s, pushing up then running back forward. It was only later that he realised it was just as effective at isolating Carey. That and his low-possession direct style I reckon still have echoes rippling through the current gameplan.

FWIW, I always thought Pagan's genius in the '90s wasn't so much tactical as managing a team of big personalities and egos.
Agree on your last point - he was old school tough - on everyone. I was not prepared for the 1st spray I saw him hand out - Rd 1 1995 when the Crows lead us at half time at the G. He didn't miss a player or an act in the 1st half that wasn't good enough.
 
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FWIW, I always thought Pagan's genius in the '90s wasn't so much tactical as managing a team of big personalities and egos.
We didn't have more egos than any other successful team.

In fact it was their willingness to work hard, be selfless and go when your turn, play for each other in addition to talent that brought success.

The current squad could learn from it - seeing similar egos you speak of recenty (being above doing the 'dirty work') leave the club is best thing for us.

Shame Scott indulged them and even said forced to play them, which Pagan would not have tolerated.
 

Wild Bill

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We didn't have more egos than any other successful team.

In fact it was their willingness to work hard, be selfless and go when your turn, play for each other in addition to talent that brought success.

The current squad could learn from it - seeing similar egos you speak of recenty (being above doing the 'dirty work') leave the club is best thing for us.

Shame Scott indulged them and even said forced to play them, which Pagan would not have tolerated.
Who did pagan ever drop of note? Who did he not tolerate playing poorly? The worst thing he did was push Schwass out of the club in the heat of the moment.

Pagan will always be loved for bringing us premierships and he ran a tight ship but we were fully loaded in the 90s.
 
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Pagan will always be loved for bringing us premierships and he ran a tight ship but we were fully loaded in the 90s.
So again you're suggesting it's players not coach. We'd have a handy saving in future with no coach admittedly. Skype during games, and the receptionist can run drills between phone calls.

You think Scott (in equivalent terms) would have won a premiership with those players?

No chance for mine. He's far too soft on senior players. We weren't as stacked then as you think, plenty of average players, we simply got more out of them.
 
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shniko11

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If i was a young player and been at the club for 2/3 years and still not getting senior action and believed i deserved a game and thought i was better than some senior players i'd be asking the coach what it's going to take to get a game.

I really hope some of our players do the same cause Scotts hasn't got the gonads to drop players himself. If some young players aren't happy with this i don't blame them at all.
 

Wild Bill

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So again you're suggesting again it's players not coach. We'd have a handy saving in future with no coach admittedly. Skype during games, and the receptionist can run drills between phone calls.

You think Scott (in equivalent terms) would have won a premiership with those players?

No chance for mine. He's far too soft on senior players. We weren't as stacked then as you think, plenty of average players, we simply got more out of them.
If you could lose 1 of Carey or Pagan in the 90s who do you lose?

Blues could have saved heaps by not poaching Denis. They had no duck.
 

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If you could lose 1 of Carey or Pagan in the 90s who do you lose?

Blues could have saved heaps by not poaching Denis. They had no duck.
You keep on deflecting. Why do all Sporting Organisations of Note have Coaches? Don't deflect. Don't ignore. Answer the question. :stern look
 
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If you could lose 1 of Carey or Pagan in the 90s who do you lose?

Blues could have saved heaps by not poaching Denis. They had no duck.
Carey....easily. We were very competitive in his absense. Poor question anyway.

Our current squad is coached by a rubbish AFL player with questionable coaching pedigree (Malthouse suggested Neeld.........). It's not a great mix.

I'd rather finish last and see change than see an unqualified coach every week.

Our list isn't bad. I rate it. Much better than those who've written us off - but going nowhere under Scott.

We can win this week - let's see if we do and we can resume discussions. I'd be happy to reflect if so.
 
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kangaspurs

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But Collingwood have the best rated midfield in the comp so he obviously has the cattle. Surely the fact they are shit has nothing to do with Bucks.
Interesting that Bill never responded to this one, or anything that Zondor posted that contradicted his point.

It is honestly baffling that a person who follows professional sport can effectively claim that a senior coach is little else but a supervisor and that it is only the talent of the team that dictates success, not motivation, tactical formulation and application, and man management.

Maybe it's the amount of Soccer I watch, but a coach who is an excellent tactician and a disciplined but approachable man manger is crucial to success, regardless of the 'cattle.'

See: Melbourne City A-League 2016/17 A-League squad under van't Schip vs Arnold's Sydney FC or Amor's Adelaide United from last season. Tottenham under Redknapp, who had a collection of some of the most talented players in the league for about 3 or 4 years (Modric, Bale, van der Vaart, King etc) and the only success was 1 Champions League appearance. Spurs, Arsenal, Man City, Chelsea, Liverpool etc v Ranieri's Leicester City who won the title with a team that only just escaped relegation the season before under a different manager.

That's by no means an exhaustive list, just a few examples that immediately come to mind that suggest that quality cattle is meaningless unless there is a good coach managing the group. A good coach is also significantly more capable of getting performances out of poor players than a poor coach can get from the same players. If it wasn't ever down to the coach then why would sporting organisations all over the world bother sacking the coach if they're just going to get the same results because the cattle's not there? There are plenty of examples, most of which I can think of come from Soccer, of teams significantly improving after the removal of a coach, even with the same group of players.
 
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kangatime

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Interesting that Bill never responded to this one, or anything that Zondor posted that contradicted his point.

It is honestly baffling that a person who claims to follow professional sport could effectively claim that a senior coach is little else but a supervisor and that it is only the talent of the team that dictates success, not motivation, tactical formulation and application, and man management.

Maybe it's the amount of Soccer I watch, but a coach who is an excellent tactician and a disciplined but approachable man manger is crucial to success, regardless of the 'cattle.'

See: Melbourne City A-League 2016/17 A-League squad under van't Schip vs Arnold's Sydney FC or Amor's Adelaide United from last season. Tottenham under Redknapp, who had a collection of some of the most talented players in the league for about 3 or 4 years (Modric, Bale, van der Vaart, King etc) who's only success was 1 Champions League appearance. Spurs, Arsenal, Man City, Chelsea, Liverpool etc v Ranieri's Leicester City who won the title with a team that only just escaped relegation the season before under a different manager. That's by no means an exhaustive list, just a few examples that immediately come to mind that suggest that quality cattle is meaningless unless there is a good coach coaching and managing the group. A good coach is also significantly more capable of getting performances out of poor players than a poor coach can get from good players.
We just need someone in the box to throw their head back and wave their arms around every time there's a questionable decision by an umpire! That's all.
 
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We just need someone in the box to throw their head back and wave their arms around every time there's a questionable decision by an umpire! That's all.
Would be like seeing Scott shake his head (like we've been slaughtered by an opposition gun, as if a surprise) every week.

I'm encouraged by his 3 plans for Dangerfield.

One successful plan would be even better.
 
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