Play Nice Bye Bye Brad #3 [Locked: BS signs 2-year ext. Aug-2017, tied to NM until end 2020]

[Thewlis Dish]

Why didn't we drop someone back when they had kicked the first 3-4 goals of the game quickly?

 

[kingcarey1]

Why didn't we drop someone back when they had kicked the first 3-4 goals of the game quickly?

Scotts

 

[Viper2Jester]

Not for the whole game. First quarter was a shambles. Second quarter marginally better. Third quarter was dominated by us and really should have netted 8-9 goals. Missing extremely gettable shots lies more with the players than the coach. So if Brad is to blame for being dominated in the centre in the first quarter, which probably had more to do with out of form/injured players, then blame him for us getting jumped early. But not for that insipid goal kicking display in the third.

Third quarter was much better I agree, but the game felt over to me at that point as Port appeared to ease off. I agree Scott is not kicking the ball.

Injured players at fault? Doesn't Scott ultimately pick the team? He also tells us they aren't injured, so I'm guessing you are saying he is lying or our selections are clearly wrong considering we had a fit Dumont, Daw, EVW and Mountford in the 2s.

I'm hopeful we can turn things around against the Pies, but I say that with little confidence. Happy to be proven wrong and we take the points (as we should be with our list).

 

[Caracas]

I'm not convinced by all the guff about Plan B's, to be honest. I can see where it's coming from but it's all based on opinions and can't be proven. I'm all for everybody getting their point across as they see it. However, at the end of the day, I'm happy that Brad's sticking to his guns. Ultimately, he'll live and die by his decisions. He has a set plan for getting this group as far as it can go. If he fails, he'll have to face the consequences at the end of the season. Right now, the team that he has built have to dig themselves out of a giant hole. He will be judged on their success or otherwise. If he wants to give up on this season and focus on the future, he can mess around with the team and drop key personnel. However, if he goes down that road, trust me, he'll be slaughtered here and in the media, as we will, most likely, - not definitely - lose all our remaining games while the players adapt to the new setups and structures. I'm happy for him to stay with his plan with the expectation that his team will turn things around in time to have a serious tilt at the flag. Having said all that, if we lose to Collingwood tomorrow, I'll be wrecking the seats in Etihad in frustration and blaming everybody that makes the slightest mistake on the night. By all means cry "sack Scott" - you probably will have good reason. However, given where things are at right here and now in this season, I believe he's right to back himself in. I completely understand the point of view that we should drop some of Petrie, Atley, McKenzie, Mullett, Cunnington, Goldy, Dal et al and maybe turn things around that way. However, I can't subscribe to it right now.

 

[King Corey]

dominated by us and really should have netted 8-9 goal

probably had more to do with out of form/injured players,

Not having a go but we're becoming a club of could've's and should've's these days. At the game we were never in it. Port had an answer for anything we did and I don't particularly rate Port.

 

[D23D]

Not having a go but we're becoming a club of could've's and should've's these days. At the game we were never in it. Port had an answer for anything we did and I don't particularly rate Port.

Also not having a go but there are also people on here who proudly hang their hats (@rse or otherwise) on two mighty pre-lim appearances.
Don't know how we became the Bulldogs and them us.

 

[fiz_rooz]

OUT: B SCOTT
IN: J BLAKEY

 

[Black2Blue]

The thing that has disappointed me most about Brad is not the poor coaching and denials as much as the pure bullshitting. Saying that players won't play unless they are 100% fit when several are obviously and admittedly carrying injuries is not a case of spin, but blatant lies. Goldy and Cunners are not simply out of form. You don't have to be in the inner sanctum to know the earth is not flat. Everyone saw it written large on the field at Etihad last Saturday.

I have no issue with the club keeping things on the quiet. Go ahead and use the spin doctors 'no comment' guidebook but don't flat out lie to the public, which includes the North faithful, and force the players to become part of the bullshit exercise. We already have to cope with the AFL's constant culture of lies. The last thing we need is for our club to play the same game. They are playing with fire when you have a club culture built on an ethos of honesty and struggle.

The media interviews by Brad and the players this week, Boomer excluded, have been embarrassing. I just wish Brad would realise that trying to cover up the cracks is not only futile, but it is counter-productive in pretty much every way. Sure the cupboard is getting bare, but while we have a fit Dumont, Daw, and Preuss being overlooked for an unfit Goldy, Cunners, and Waite, we feed a defensive, dishonest, and insular culture, that is even more disappointing than our fall from the top of the perch. I would rather lose with a fit, slightly younger 22 giving their all without the injured big names (give Dumont, Clarke, Anderson, Daw license to show their wares), than the compromised 'structures' that I fear will lose badly on Friday.

Maybe Goldy, Cunners, Waite, and Wellsy are playing their way back to fitness and form or the team shows the collective fire in the belly to win tough and I will be bloody happy to see that happen. Still I don't hold many hopes. And it doesn't take away from how poorly the club has managed the challenges of the past months.

 

[hilly]

Don't post these scoops often but make no mistake, Brendan McCartney's name is being heavily whispered around Arden St.

Tough, no bullshit coach who has gone through the very beat systems and has won the ultimate prize whilst there. Would crack our team in to shape in no time.

Expect the whispers to grow if this winless streak continues. Brad's career is definitely on a knife edge.

I actually heard that Gary Ayres, Damian Drum and Peter Rohde were right in the mix.

 

[King Corey]

I actually heard that Gary Ayres, Damian Drum and Peter Rohde were right in the mix for an EDFL commentary position.

Efa.

 

[Dirty_11]

Third quarter was much better I agree, but the game felt over to me at that point as Port appeared to ease off. I agree Scott is not kicking the ball.

Injured players at fault? Doesn't Scott ultimately pick the team? He also tells us they aren't injured, so I'm guessing you are saying he is lying or our selections are clearly wrong considering we had a fit Dumont, Daw, EVW and Mountford in the 2s.

I'm hopeful we can turn things around against the Pies, but I say that with little confidence. Happy to be proven wrong and we take the points (as we should be with our list).

I would suggest he is withholding the truth on a few players. Goldy especially.

It is a fine line on where blame lies in my opinion. For example, where was our tackling, our manic pressure on the ball carrier and manning the mark. These should be non-negotiables every week. Scott shouldn't have to enforce these every week, the players should know this is required. On the flip side, has Scott created a culture of complacency where players feel comfortable to pick and chose when to put in the required effort. Personally I believe it is a mixture of both and our leaders should be doing more on-field to arrest quarters like the first last week.

 

[Dirty_11]

Not having a go but we're becoming a club of could've's and should've's these days. At the game we were never in it. Port had an answer for anything we did and I don't particularly rate Port.

I was at the game. If we kicked straight in the third we would have been in it. But yes, I am getting tired of belting out excuses for us.

 

[ferball]

I'm not convinced by all the guff about Plan B's, to be honest. I can see where it's coming from but it's all based on opinions and can't be proven. I'm all for everybody getting their point across as they see it. However, at the end of the day, I'm happy that Brad's sticking to his guns. Ultimately, he'll live and die by his decisions. He has a set plan for getting this group as far as it can go. If he fails, he'll have to face the consequences at the end of the season. Right now, the team that he has built have to dig themselves out of a giant hole. He will be judged on their success or otherwise. If he wants to give up on this season and focus on the future, he can mess around with the team and drop key personnel. However, if he goes down that road, trust me, he'll be slaughtered here and in the media, as we will, most likely, - not definitely - lose all our remaining games while the players adapt to the new setups and structures. I'm happy for him to stay with his plan with the expectation that his team will turn things around in time to have a serious tilt at the flag. Having said all that, if we lose to Collingwood tomorrow, I'll be wrecking the seats in Etihad in frustration and blaming everybody that makes the slightest mistake on the night. By all means cry "sack Scott" - you probably will have good reason. However, given where things are at right here and now in this season, I believe he's right to back himself in. I completely understand the point of view that we should drop some of Petrie, Atley, McKenzie, Mullett, Cunnington, Goldy, Dal et al and maybe turn things around that way. However, I can't subscribe to it right now.

Totally.

Our season might resemble a car crash, but in a car crash you can have one of two responses. Throw your hands over your face and scream when things start going out of control or do everything in your power to get control back. It might make no difference in the end but the second thing gives you more chances of saving the day.

Personally doing things like moving Tarrant to the forward line when we can't even get the ball there and he is the only thing holding our defense together is the equivalent of throwing your hands over your face and waiting for your car to steer itself off the road. Its not even waiting till you're plummetting down the cliff. Its expecting to and not doing anything to prevent the accident.

Since the GC game last year Scott has stuck to his guns. Not moved players and not thrown the dice. Backed his structures and the players. And up until the last month its worked reasonably well. Everyone is saying "you could see the cracks in May" but we were undefeated and winning games playing badly. That is what good teams do at the start of seasons, (well all year but we have a different team at the moment,) its one thing that is consistent over the seasons. And we were winning games that we had lost in previous years. Close ones against weaker opposition. First rounds against Adelaide.

Then the wheels fell off but how much of that is actually his fault? We've all seen the stats on how many games we've finished without a full suide. we are effectively playing with limited rotations and last years interchange system - we lost the equivalent of a sub in too many games. That makes way too much difference in this years comp, where every endurance advantage is so important. When we were fit and healthy we were finishing over sides.

What coach would have done a better job with North this year?

Way too much of this thread is just the same whinge that people had 3 years ago at the first opportunity available to them. I'd love to engage in some sensible criticism of Scott (cos there is some regarding his flexibility and the weaknesses from last years prelim that some players still exhibit) but there is precious little compared to the out of date crying and calls for his head.

 

[naturally north]

Totally.

Our season might resemble a car crash, but in a car crash you can have one of two responses. Throw your hands over your face and scream when things start going out of control or do everything in your power to get control back. It might make no difference in the end but the second thing gives you more chances of saving the day.

Personally doing things like moving Tarrant to the forward line when we can't even get the ball there and he is the only thing holding our defense together is the equivalent of throwing your hands over your face and waiting for your car to steer itself off the road. Its not even waiting till you're plummetting down the cliff. Its expecting to and not doing anything to prevent the accident.

Since the GC game last year Scott has stuck to his guns. Not moved players and not thrown the dice. Backed his structures and the players. And up until the last month its worked reasonably well. Everyone is saying "you could see the cracks in May" but we were undefeated and winning games playing badly. That is what good teams do at the start of seasons, (well all year but we have a different team at the moment,) its one thing that is consistent over the seasons. And we were winning games that we had lost in previous years. Close ones against weaker opposition. First rounds against Adelaide.

Then the wheels fell off but how much of that is actually his fault? We've all seen the stats on how many games we've finished without a full suide. we are effectively playing with limited rotations and last years interchange system - we lost the equivalent of a sub in too many games. That makes way too much difference in this years comp, where every endurance advantage is so important. When we were fit and healthy we were finishing over sides.

What coach would have done a better job with North this year?

Way too much of this thread is just the same whinge that people had 3 years ago at the first opportunity available to them. I'd love to engage in some sensible criticism of Scott (cos there is some regarding his flexibility and the weaknesses from last years prelim that some players still exhibit) but there is precious little compared to the out of date crying and calls for his head.

Good post, I don't necessarily agree but I like your succinct style.

I'm an advocate of Tarrant forward, I don't believe Robbie saving five goals a game is beneficial when you keep losing. A five goal defeat a ten goal defeat I see know real difference. I also realise injuries have thrown the preverbal spanner in the works, not 100% sure that Brad would have changed much with others available.

Yes our midfield has let us down, Dumont is a classic example of 'paying for the sins of others'. What I find most annoying though is the propaganda. Say nothing you're better off.

Dan Currie leaving even when we wanted to keep him wasn't ever getting a game. Goldie it seems would need to be on deaths door before being rested. Goldie saying he's knackered and looking forward to the bye, well we've seen no improvement. Brad tells us good form is just around the corner and we'll see improvement in the second half of the season. Second half of the season started four weeks ago.

Drew Petrie, every man and his dog thinks his form is below par, no need on a Wednesday to state he's in and have a look on your face that suggest everyone else is just plain silly.

I want the fifth flag, I don't care for eighth or a couple of finals victories that's management KPI s**t. Build a squad for the win. I also don't see AFL as a real job, I don't feel sorry for Scott and his massive pay cheque. Life as an AFL coach can and should be short(er) for those that continually fail to deliver.

I would never ever suggest Scott wouldn't make an awesome storeman at Bunnings and deserve every bit of his 55K PA.

 

[shniko11]

Yeah no ones saying Brad should abandon ship and call everyone overboard.
Just that as Captain of the ship he can't leave it at Port forever.

 

[ferball]

Good post, I don't necessarily agree but I like your succinct style.

I'm an advocate of Tarrant forward, I don't believe Robbie saving five goals a game is beneficial when you keep losing. A five goal defeat a ten goal defeat I see know real difference. I also realise injuries have thrown the preverbal spanner in the works, not 100% sure that Brad would have changed much with others available.

Yes our midfield has let us down, Dumont is a classic example of 'paying for the sins of others'. What I find most annoying though is the propaganda. Say nothing you're better off.

Dan Currie leaving even when we wanted to keep him wasn't ever getting a game. Goldie it seems would need to be on deaths door before being rested. Goldie saying he's knackered and looking forward to the bye, well we've seen no improvement. Brad tells us good form is just around the corner and we'll see improvement in the second half of the season. Second half of the season started four weeks ago.

Drew Petrie, every man and his dog thinks his form is below par, no need on a Wednesday to state he's in and have a look on your face that suggest everyone else is just plain silly.

I want the fifth flag, I don't care for eighth or a couple of finals victories that's management KPI s**t. Build a squad for the win. I also don't see AFL as a real job, I don't feel sorry for Scott and his massive pay cheque. Life as an AFL coach can and should be short(er) for those that continually fail to deliver.

I would never ever suggest Scott wouldn't make an awesome storeman at Bunnings and deserve every bit of his 55K PA.

I know you advocated moving Tarrant but I wasn't just having a go at you cos I'm pretty sure you aren't the only one. And its one example of many. It might be a thing to try when we are in front or at the start of a game but when the pressure is on right now we need him on the backline. If we had a full strength backline it might work, but ... those five or ten goal differences might end up mattering this year. Or any year. And if its only five goals then a good 15 minutes of football could be the difference. If not 5 goals is less morale damage than 10 or more. I haven't given up on the top four just yet, but we do need a bit of luck to get there.

Dumont is a bit unlucky, and Wood very unlucky in other ways. I dunno what the story is with Daw, he had a shocking period in one game but was otherwise as good as anyone else and even in that bad game lifted and stood up when it was on the line.

Apart from that what else would you expect in the way of blooding new players?

In a side with a game based on physical pressure and intensity players like Clarke and Wagner were always going to struggle to get a game before now in the season, and if we had players fit they would struggle now.

I think the intensity Dumont and Wood brought when they did get a shot was a consequence of holding them back and its set them a standard they need to maintain. In Wood's case his improvement is demonstrable from one season to the next. Hunger has obviously driven the intensity he has brought to the games. This is a good thing, (tho I can see why people would say that should apply to the whole side.) But from a development POV holding Wood back the way we did seems to have benefited his game. He will benefit from that for years, if not the entirety of his career. If he is too up himself to see that then perhaps he doesn't have the value we're placing on him here at BF anyway.

NN remember you were having a go at Brown not that long ago. Well maybe not having a go, but questioning his pace and value. Probably a fair question at the time, but he has answered it I reckon. Sticking with him will benefit the club in the long term. Its developed his onfield character as much as anything else and he has stood up when we've faced this adversity. It might also benefit us come finals time. To me that could be an example of "stubborn Scotts" but its also an example of backing himself and his players. And good player development.

So its not all s**t.

I know the bullshit is frustrating. But what does he do?

Tell the truth and come out and say "our seasons gone. We're ****ed, injuries have killed us and we're concentrating on 2017 from now."???

Seriously?

They are basically doing their best to save what furniture they can on the off chance we get enough players back and in form to have a crack at the finals. Cos at our best we could probably beat anyone in the comp. (This isn't dreaming this is a fair assessment of what our best team is capable of.) That is showing a lot of faith in a side that is only half on the park. But its a fair enough show of faith cos they could still do it. If anyone can its this NM side at full strength (or near it) this year with this top 8.

"Our best footy is ahead of us." = "At some point in the future we'll get our best players back."

Like it or lump it that is the reality. You can't expect coaching staff to get miracles out of the likes of Mullet, McKenzie or Nahas if you've already acknowledged how limited their football is. Plenty of people on here have that expectation tho.

On the other hand:

"We don't play injured players."

What is the difference between injured and just sore? Its a fair question. And one that needs to be examined carefully. Maybe Goldy, Cunners and the rest are playing thru pain but without an injury that causes more damage? Then its a matter of them playing till they can cope/improve their pain threshold, or they stop. Given our history tho it needs scrutiny. we don't want them wrecking their futures cos the coach played under Leigh Matthews. That is pretty much non negotiable to me. We've had some real personnel losses in the last few years.

So its not just about blind support for Scott.

 

[naturally north]

I know you advocated moving Tarrant but I wasn't just having a go at you cos I'm pretty sure you aren't the only one. And its one example of many. It might be a thing to try when we are in front or at the start of a game but when the pressure is on right now we need him on the backline. If we had a full strength backline it might work, but ... those five or ten goal differences might end up mattering this year. Or any year. And if its only five goals then a good 15 minutes of football could be the difference. If not 5 goals is less morale damage than 10 or more. I haven't given up on the top four just yet, but we do need a bit of luck to get there.

Dumont is a bit unlucky, and Wood very unlucky in other ways. I dunno what the story is with Daw, he had a shocking period in one game but was otherwise as good as anyone else and even in that bad game lifted and stood up when it was on the line.

Apart from that what else would you expect in the way of blooding new players?

In a side with a game based on physical pressure and intensity players like Clarke and Wagner were always going to struggle to get a game before now in the season, and if we had players fit they would struggle now.

I think the intensity Dumont and Wood brought when they did get a shot was a consequence of holding them back and its set them a standard they need to maintain. In Wood's case his improvement is demonstrable from one season to the next. Hunger has obviously driven the intensity he has brought to the games. This is a good thing, (tho I can see why people would say that should apply to the whole side.) But from a development POV holding Wood back the way we did seems to have benefited his game. He will benefit from that for years, if not the entirety of his career. If he is too up himself to see that then perhaps he doesn't have the value we're placing on him here at BF anyway.

NN remember you were having a go at Brown not that long ago. Well maybe not having a go, but questioning his pace and value. Probably a fair question at the time, but he has answered it I reckon. Sticking with him will benefit the club in the long term. Its developed his onfield character as much as anything else and he has stood up when we've faced this adversity. It might also benefit us come finals time. To me that could be an example of "stubborn Scotts" but its also an example of backing himself and his players. And good player development.

So its not all s**t.

I know the bullshit is frustrating. But what does he do?

Tell the truth and come out and say "our seasons gone. We're stuffed, injuries have killed us and we're concentrating on 2017 from now."???

Seriously?

They are basically doing their best to save what furniture they can on the off chance we get enough players back and in form to have a crack at the finals. Cos at our best we could probably beat anyone in the comp. (This isn't dreaming this is a fair assessment of what our best team is capable of.) That is showing a lot of faith in a side that is only half on the park. But its a fair enough show of faith cos they could still do it. If anyone can its this NM side at full strength (or near it) this year with this top 8.

"Our best footy is ahead of us." = "At some point in the future we'll get our best players back."

Like it or lump it that is the reality. You can't expect coaching staff to get miracles out of the likes of Mullet, McKenzie or Nahas if you've already acknowledged how limited their football is. Plenty of people on here have that expectation tho.

On the other hand:

"We don't play injured players."

What is the difference between injured and just sore? Its a fair question. And one that needs to be examined carefully. Maybe Goldy, Cunners and the rest are playing thru pain but without an injury that causes more damage? Then its a matter of them playing till they can cope/improve their pain threshold, or they stop. Given our history tho it needs scrutiny. we don't want them wrecking their futures cos the coach played under Leigh Matthews. That is pretty much non negotiable to me. We've had some real personnel losses in the last few years.

So its not just about blind support for Scott.

Nice post, wish I had more time to answer. Just wanted to say I think we'll win tonight and next week and I hope this allows us to charge into September chock full of confidence.

Am actually happy Majak will be able to chop out Goldie in the ruck. Send Goldie fwd for a bit, when he's 'on' a tough opponent up forward.

 

[ferball]

Cheers - I'm hopeful/confident about tonight as well. I know we played like s**t last week but I think the boys have some pride and don't want to go out like that.

 

[Thewlis Dish]

Re: injured vs sore, if the soreness is going to negatively affect the player's output, is there really a difference?

 

[GoNorth]

I know I should know this but which year did Brad Scott become North's coach?

 

[D23D]

I know I should know this but which year did Brad Scott become North's coach?

From wiki
was appointed as North Melbourne coach for the 2010 season, signing a three-year contract on 17 August 2009.

 

[ferball]

Re: injured vs sore, if the soreness is going to negatively affect the player's output, is there really a difference?

Not if it stops you performing. But I would have thought playing with pain is the sort of courage you need to play footy, or any sport really. The last 50m of a 400m race hurts/is painful and should effect performance but the good athletes push thru the pain. Same with chasing a player to put pressure on the kick in the dying minutes of the last quarter.

What I was getting at was that sometimes soreness is there but isn't a symptom of ongoing damage and sometimes players will put their hand up in those situations in the hope they can push thru the pain and perform at their best. I hope the club is able to tell the difference so players aren't doing that because they think they are ok but aren't.

Ben Jacobs was the guy that came to mind.

 

[Kanga1996]

For all your chest banging on this, I see it as a fairly simple equation.

For a start, ask is there a better option in the VFL than Petrie? Probably not with Black, Wood, Maj all injured.

But more importantly, can we go deep into September without an in-form Petrie? Probably not, so either we play him back into form while maintaining the same structures for the rest of the team to get used to, or we panic, drop him, and start trying to get games into kids who aren't available for selection in order to best prepare for a shot at a premiership in a few years.

Don't be a panic-merchant.

Not sure dropping an out of form player is panicking, sounds more like common sense to me.. Allowing him to find form in the AFL is potentially costing us game now.. What if we don’t make the finals?

 

[Viper2Jester]

Not sure dropping an out of form player is panicking, sounds more like common sense to me.. Allowing him to find form in the AFL is potentially costing us game now.. What if we don’t make the finals?

Remember Scott's "inclement weather happens, respond to it as it goes away, but we must stay the course" or some bizarre s**t like that.

I think that means we continue to play out of form/injured players regardless of output because doing anything else is not "staying the course" and/or panicking apparently

 

[StiffArm]

Not sure dropping an out of form player is panicking, sounds more like common sense to me.. Allowing him to find form in the AFL is potentially costing us game now.. What if we don’t make the finals?

Who would you bring in for him?