Scape Goat The Cam Guthrie Echo Chamber

[OddYears]

Numbers don't indicate effectiveness. Those are almost all when he's trailing an opponent, tight, in a stoppage, as we're told 'he's a defensive mid'. He's a soft tackler, his chasing is awful, his willingness to hit a running player hard (to tackle) is poor.

Dahlhaus, Rohan, Atkins... these are the guys who hit hard, who run hard to make tackles, who have changed the look of the side and given us the hard edge we needed! Guthire's numbers are better, they need to be, he knows it.

Pick a stat, fine. We've seen how effective overall he isn't compared with a 6 gamer, or any of our other mids. He's consistently been our worst mid since the day he went in there. That's the truth.



Geelong's results over the last 9 years have me wondering how a player at such a club who wins so much, playing midfield for much of that time, has only been able to put together 9 Brownlow votes in nearly 150 games? The guy hasn't even polled at all in nearly 3 years, the prime of his career... ? This is seriously unheard of... It's proof of how instrumental he isn't, and how much of a passenger he is. He's a special player, that's for sure. Very special.

You’re spot on with the passenger call. In or out of the side he makes no difference.

 

[Vdubs]

Numbers don't indicate effectiveness. Those are almost all when he's trailing an opponent, tight, in a stoppage, as we're told 'he's a defensive mid'. He's a soft tackler, his chasing is awful, his willingness to hit a running player hard (to tackle) is poor.

Dahlhaus, Rohan, Atkins... these are the guys who hit hard, who run hard to make tackles, who have changed the look of the side and given us the hard edge we needed! Guthire's numbers are better, they need to be, he knows it.

Pick a stat, fine. We've seen how effective overall he isn't compared with a 6 gamer, or any of our other mids. He's consistently been our worst mid since the day he went in there. That's the truth.



Geelong's results over the last 9 years have me wondering how a player at such a club who wins so much, playing midfield for much of that time, has only been able to put together 9 Brownlow votes in nearly 150 games? The guy hasn't even polled at all in nearly 3 years, the prime of his career... ? This is seriously unheard of... It's proof of how instrumental he isn't, and how much of a passenger he is. He's a special player, that's for sure. Very special.

Very shallow argument.
None of us here would have Guthrie as in our best 3, nor best 6 players. With respect to your Brownlow argument, only 3,2 ,1 get votes. We have had many star players over the time we've had Guthrie, including Selwood & Danger, and we have not been as dominant anyway.
How many votes did Brad Ottens amass over his career, and Max Rooke? 9 votes. Both VERY SPECIAL PLAYERS
Guthrie has NOT been playing as a pure mid over his time.
He is not in our best 3 mids, necessarily, but he is our best 2 way running mid.
Why not accept he has a place in our team according to those who KNOW?

 

[tomthabuddah1]

Not sure what I'm getting at? OK..

Higgins' Champion score was the highest in the Roos side, only 2 players in Geelong's side scored higher. A lot of what makes up that score is effectiveness. Higgins had a good game!

Higgins has had a good season and has only scored higher than the game V Geelong once in 2019.

Higgins doesn't have a defensive follower / tag every week. Making the point of putting a player on Higgins to curb his influence, yet he turns out being their best performer for the day? That's a failure in my book. Higgins isn't that good.

As I said, whether you look at this as a head to head, or Guthrie played a defensive role to curb Higgins? He failed either way.

This misses my point. I thought Higgins in general was pretty ineffective. I didn't see him wide open in space nor hurt with his possessions or goals. Whether Higgins was the best performer on the day is debatable and the coaches votes point to otherwise. I wouldn't read to much into champion data scores either.

 

[PatrickBateman]

Guthrie has NOT been playing as a pure mid over his time.

Correct, moved around several times because he wasn't good enough to maintain his spot there. Still, he's spent a good portion of his career in the midfield, or in a position to earn cheap touches behind the ball.

Forwards and rucks don't poll in the Brownlow, Ottens impacted games like Guthrie never has. Compare Guthrie to players who switch in and out of the midfield of the same era, like Duncan and Menegola.

He is not in our best 3 mids, necessarily, but he is our best 2 way running mid.

Who are Geelong's other 2 way running mids he's better than?

Forget 'not in our best 3 mids'. He's simply our worst.

 

[PatrickBateman]

This misses my point.

You said Higgins 'didn't hurt us'.

31 touches (17 contested - only Kelly had more), 1 goal, 1 behind, 7 clearances.

You can have an opinion that he didn't, fine. The stats suggest the above is a good performance, as does Champion. If Guthrie pulled those numbers, (even in a winning side!) I'd be singing his praises before anyone. He doesn't.

I hit your point on the head.

 

[Vdubs]

Correct, moved around several times because he wasn't good enough to maintain his spot there. Still, he's spent a good portion of his career in the midfield, or in a position to earn cheap touches behind the ball.

Forwards and rucks don't poll in the Brownlow, Ottens impacted games like Guthrie never has. Compare Guthrie to players who switch in and out of the midfield of the same era, like Duncan and Menegola.



Who are Geelong's other 2 way running mids he's better than?

Forget 'not in our best 3 mids'. He's simply our worst.

The most important thing you've not said, I agree, he IS our only 2 way running mid when he plays there, hence his value. Apart from that, he is a clever player, does many small unnoted things by you; tap-ons, shepherds, slick handballs, link up play. He may look as if he is coasting, but I would suggest if he was on the market, MANY teams would jump at the opportunity.
Yet more importantly, he is part of the 22 that currently sits 7-1, and the MC thinks he is value. That'll do for me every week.

Your continual reference to Brownlow votes as an important issue reflects where you're at. Nobody else here, even those of us who appreciate Guthrie, would use his low polling as an indicator of where he's at. He is not a star, is not prolific in stats, is not a sheer gun, but he is a valuable, important role player, and a B grader, which all teams should have. B graders are the meat and potatoes of a team.

 

[tomthabuddah1]

You said Higgins 'didn't hurt us'.

31 touches (17 contested - only Kelly had more), 1 goal, 1 behind, 7 clearances.

You can have an opinion that he didn't, fine. The stats suggest the above is a good performance, as does Champion. If Guthrie pulled those numbers, (even in a winning side!) I'd be singing his praises before anyone. He doesn't.

I hit your point on the head.

I will divert to the Kangaroos board - who know Higgins a little better than me (and I hope you) - he was described by DarkPhoenix as follows, "Higgins another mostly invisible 30+ disposal game." Sing his praises all you want mate, I suspect you have made your mind up no matter what I say.

 

[Down at K Park]

Funny to call him a 2 way runner when he just jogs after a break away opponent with the ball. I wish i could remember at which point of the game it was, when he jogged after an opponent who made the clearance, only for miers to come from 15 metres behind guth to impact the contest. It was the laziest piece of football from a veteran i have ever seen.

Disgraceful from a veteran to be that out hustled by a guy playing his 8th game. He’s just a lazy, minimal effort player. I really hope the coaches found that vision from the game, and highlighted it in front of the whole playing group during the game review. He should be singled out and ridiculed for that crap. And miers deserves the praise for that gut busting effort.

 

[CatFan79]

He’s just a lazy, minimal effort player.

This has always been my biggest gripe.. 5 minutes to go in a GF you just know Guthrie wouldn't put his body on the line for the team. I'm sure he thinks that's someone else's 'role'.

Ultimately his lack of aggression both offensively and defensively should have been addressed by now.

If a decision came down to Guthrie or Constable I don't understand how anyone picks Guthrie. Makes no sense at all.

 

[scottydeewah]

We are a game clear on the top of the ladder and people are doubting the coaching staff. Who knows if he is in our team at years end, but right now, with injuries, with rotations, etc. he is in our team. A winning team.

So sick of the youth argument - play X kid, because kids are the future. These are the same idiots who would have every club in a constant rebuild as no senior player would ever get picked.

How on earth you question the coaches right now, even on a football forum, is a bit beyond me. It takes around 32-38 players to win a flag, not 18, not 22. Ask yourself, is he in the best 32 players at the club? If the answer is yes, then you have answered the question of if he gets a game!

 

[OddYears]

Funny to call him a 2 way runner when he just jogs after a break away opponent with the ball. I wish i could remember at which point of the game it was, when he jogged after an opponent who made the clearance, only for miers to come from 15 metres behind guth to impact the contest. It was the laziest piece of football from a veteran i have ever seen.

Disgraceful from a veteran to be that out hustled by a guy playing his 8th game. He’s just a lazy, minimal effort player. I really hope the coaches found that vision from the game, and highlighted it in front of the whole playing group during the game review. He should be singled out and ridiculed for that crap. And miers deserves the praise for that gut busting effort.

I was hoping they highlighted his pathetic 'chase' from the bombers game which resulted in an opposition goal but then he came out and did the exact same thing against the roos. Goes against everything the team is focusing on this year. Maybe he's just really slow so they don't bother mentioning it?

 

[Footy Smarts]

If a decision came down to Guthrie or Constable I don't understand how anyone picks Guthrie. Makes no sense at all.

Hmmm let's see. Player A is leading the club for tackles averaging almost twice as many as player B. Player A is leading the club for goal assists per game averaging 6 times as many as player B. Player A is the 3rd highest averaging mid at the club for center clearances per game averaging 3.5 times as many as player B. Player A is the only guy in the current lineup who has played successfully as a tagger at afl level. Player A has successfully played as a small defender whereas player B is really a midfielder only so player A has significantly more versatility. Player A averages clearly the least turnovers per game of any of our midfielders with only 9 in 4 games.

Given this you're telling me that it makes no sense to pick player A over player B? Let's be honest Constable is a talented kid who we should pump games in to but come finals time if the choice is between him and Guthrie then barring a significant change in form Guthrie gets selected every time and it's not remotely a close choice.

Right now Guthrie is clearly our best defensive midfielder at center clearances (hence tackle numbers and our worst center clearance losses are almost always when he's not in there), he wins plenty of his own ball in the center (hence center clearance numbers), he is using it very cleanly (hence low turnovers), he is damaging when he gets the chance (hence highest goal assists) and he is incredibly versatile (hence playing as a half back/winger against West Coast after playing through midfeld most of the rest of the time). He's not the most damaging player we've got (his instruction wouldn't be to blindly chase the ball like Kelly and Dangerfield) but by any measure he's clearly doing a very good job.

 

[Down at K Park]

We are a game clear on the top of the ladder and people are doubting the coaching staff. Who knows if he is in our team at years end, but right now, with injuries, with rotations, etc. he is in our team. A winning team.

So sick of the youth argument - play X kid, because kids are the future. These are the same idiots who would have every club in a constant rebuild as no senior player would ever get picked.

How on earth you question the coaches right now, even on a football forum, is a bit beyond me. It takes around 32-38 players to win a flag, not 18, not 22. Ask yourself, is he in the best 32 players at the club? If the answer is yes, then you have answered the question of if he gets a game!

I didn’t realise we pick 32 players every week. Or is that a typo?

 

[Max Milburn]

Cam, Cam, Cam, Cam
Cam, Cam, Cam, Cam
Cam, Cam, (Lovely Cam, Wonderful Cam!) Cam, Cam

Cam, Cam, Cam, Cam
Cam, Cam, Cam, Cam
Cam, Cam, (Lovely Cam, Wonderful Cam!) Cam, Cam

Special mention to: TERRY JONES, MICHAEL EDWARD PALIN, FRED TOMLINSON

 

[4quarter_cat]

I'm going to call everyone Cam in honour of your great poem Cam. It will help us avoid confusion.

 

[PatrickBateman]

How on earth you question the coaches right now, even on a football forum, is a bit beyond me.

I'll tell you why.

You know what's happened in the past when we start struggling as a side and lose games? Guthrie gets removed from the midfield. It's happened again, and again for 3+ years. The GFC wants him there, we know that. Yet when the heat is on, he gets replaced - for good reason. When the finger needs to be pointed, when performances are put under the microscope, he's the least effective (still is), he goes. It's as simple as that.

This is why he's not been able to maintain his spot in the past, PERIOD!

While the side keeps winning, why change, right? That's your point. Well, there's always improvement, and Guthrie playing midfield isn't in my opinion our side at it's best. I don't give a s**t what the coaches think. You watch them shift his arse if we start losing.... again!! I'd rather rotate Constable through there instead, have 20 or so AFL games into him prior to finals. His numbers are already superior to Guthrie's FFS.

Finals are my main issue with respect to Guthrie. The pace goes up, the heat goes up, the hits are harder, physicality is more crucial. None of this works for him. Too soft across the board, not desperate enough. Too 'nice'. Doesn't work.

 

[Vdubs]

Correct, moved around several times because he wasn't good enough to maintain his spot there. Still, he's spent a good portion of his career in the midfield, or in a position to earn cheap touches behind the ball.

Forwards and rucks don't poll in the Brownlow, Ottens impacted games like Guthrie never has. Compare Guthrie to players who switch in and out of the midfield of the same era, like Duncan and Menegola.



Who are Geelong's other 2 way running mids he's better than?

Forget 'not in our best 3 mids'. He's simply our worst.

We are blessed; you are simply pampered. Danger, Kelly, Selwood, Duncan, Guthrie, Menegola, Parfitt, Constable, and occasionally, GAJ, Atkins, Dahlhaus. We are so deep, yet all you want to do is criticise his lack of Brownlow votes, and what you perceive his weaknesses to be.
Ever heard of counting your blessings?

 

[OddYears]

Another crap game from cuthrie. Not sure why he was going to bont. Clearly a few levels below him. If he’s going to play that defensive mid at least line him up on someone he has a chance of stopping.

 

[Vdubs]

Another crap game from cuthrie. Not sure why he was going to bont. Clearly a few levels below him. If he’s going to play that defensive mid at least line him up on someone he has a chance of stopping.

Some have him in their votes.
7 tackles, a goal, several score involvements- he'll go to GC next week, in our best 22 every week.

 

[Max Milburn]

Some have him in their votes.
7 tackles, a goal, several score involvements- he'll go to GC next week, in our best 22 every week.

Totally ignoring all the good things.
I call that totally ignorant.
There were several Cats players yesterday who did less, made more mistakes, had less impact, and all will be forgiven.

 

[cats_09]

Totally ignoring all the good things.
I call that totally ignorant.
There were several Cats players yesterday who did less, made more mistakes, had less impact, and all will be forgiven.

Totally agree - critics are very quick to come out & complain about how many apparent missed tackles go against his, but no comment about the lack of defensive efforts or work by other players.

If his defensive work was really as bad as some suggest, I'm thinking that chances are he doesn't get a game and instead is sent back to the VFL to work on things - as others have been instructed to do over recent seasons

 

[OddYears]

Some have him in their votes.
7 tackles, a goal, several score involvements- he'll go to GC next week, in our best 22 every week.

His defensive work is arm around opponent, let opponent win ball, lay tackle. 11 touches for most midfield minutes... and no midfield possessions.

 

[CatFan79]

His defensive work is arm around opponent, let opponent win ball, lay tackle. 11 touches for most midfield minutes... and no midfield possessions.

The 'defensive' role is just an excuse for his lack of ability to have impact as a midfielder.

11 touches is pathetic.

 

[OddYears]

The 'defensive' role is just an excuse for his lack of ability to have impact as a midfielder.

11 touches is pathetic.

It really is an excuse. It’s like the main objective of a midfielder doesn’t matter to the people defending him. And of course defensive minded mids are important but put cuthrie on a half decent opponent and he has no chance to stop them as we’ve seen the last 2 weeks. Constable had a poor game as well and still provided more from 10 minutes less playing time and people are more than happy for him to ‘work on some things’ in the vfl while cuthrie is a lock in the 22.

 

[Cronin]

If the instruction was to follow Bont wherever he goes and make sure he has no influence on the game, then he failed.

If that wasn't his role and he was just in there as another mid then IMO that's not what we need because we already have enough unaccountable midfielders.