Scape Goat The Cam Guthrie Echo Chamber

[Footy Smarts]

I thought I'd start this thread for a couple of reasons. Firstly he's clearly a scapegoat seeing the criticisms from last night's game and instead of derailing other threads too much perhaps some of the discussion on him could be moved here. But secondly I think he's a classic example of the type of midfielder who will benefit from the extra space at center clearances that the starting positions allows.

The 666 starting positions makes center clearances incredibly important. It's almost impossible to get numbers around the player escaping the clearance and with even numbers in the forward 50 it means no pressure on the ball carrier and 1 on 1 contests up forward. It also means that the initial center bounce is completely different to every other clearance because there is so much space. So what's the impact?

Firstly acceleration and speed become more important so that you can get into all that space when you win the ball and defend the space somewhat when you lose the ball. Secondly the big bodied mids become less important because there aren't many other players to overpower or shrug off. Thirdly you want players who will try to escape the congestion to get a cleaner clearance because there is so much more space rather than players who bang it on the boot which now will waste a potentially dangerous clearance.

So which players of ours does this suit? For mine Guthrie is the obvious one because his biggest strength is his acceleration and ability to put teammates into space while his biggest weakness has been getting caught in congestion holding onto the ball too long. And he showed it in the 3rd quarter last night when he was involved in 3 classy center clearances to drag us back into the game (see 1:13:00, 1:35:20 and 1:37:45 in the video below).



This doesn't mean he has to play as a permanent mid but we should see guys like Guthrie, Duncan and Parfitt attend a lot more center clearances. In contrast the rules don't really suit guys like Menegola and both Selwoods who are bigger bodies, good on the inside but fairly slow and tend to bang the ball on the boot at times. It could even be a smart move for Guthrie to attend the center bounce then shift towards defence while someone like J Selwood or Menegola line up in the forward 50 but then shift in to midfield once the game develops.

 

[Ray Donovan]

He is your standard C+ or B Grade role player. Every squad needs guys like this to contribute I suppose he is a more polished George hornlin Smith.

Nothing against the guy personally if he is in the best 22 so be it. His problem is geelong really does not need another inside ball winner as a priority so you are trying to find him minutes.

Kelly, Selwood, S.Selwood, Dangerfield, Parfitt, Dalhaus, Constable, Duncan, Ablett.

Narkle & Fogarty

With the exclusion of constable & perhaps scooter in 2019 if your looking to really contend that's where the minutes should go.

And with 6-6-6
Big bodied mids clearance specialists are going to be even more important to teams this year. Winning centre clearances is going to win you games now literally.

Just going to be less congested without players coming off the back of the square.

 

[Warhorse]

Professional bed shitter who short steps to avoid contact. Proven failure who has let geelong down over and over again, a nothing preseason game doesn't change that.

 

[Turbocat]

.....

 

[Jhye Clark 13]

Professional bed shitter who short steps to avoid contact. Proven failure who has let geelong down over and over again, a nothing preseason game doesn't change that.

Yep, the 6-6-6 won't help him chase.

 

[CatToTheFuture]

I thought I'd start this thread for a couple of reasons. Firstly he's clearly a scapegoat seeing the criticisms from last night's game and instead of derailing other threads too much perhaps some of the discussion on him could be moved here. But secondly I think he's a classic example of the type of midfielder who will benefit from the extra space at center clearances that the starting positions allows.

The 666 starting positions makes center clearances incredibly important. It's almost impossible to get numbers around the player escaping the clearance and with even numbers in the forward 50 it means no pressure on the ball carrier and 1 on 1 contests up forward. It also means that the initial center bounce is completely different to every other clearance because there is so much space. So what's the impact?

Firstly acceleration and speed become more important so that you can get into all that space when you win the ball and defend the space somewhat when you lose the ball. Secondly the big bodied mids become less important because there aren't many other players to overpower or shrug off. Thirdly you want players who will try to escape the congestion to get a cleaner clearance because there is so much more space rather than players who bang it on the boot which now will waste a potentially dangerous clearance.

So which players of ours does this suit? For mine Guthrie is the obvious one because his biggest strength is his acceleration and ability to put teammates into space while his biggest weakness has been getting caught in congestion holding onto the ball too long. And he showed it in the 3rd quarter last night when he was involved in 3 classy center clearances to drag us back into the game (see 1:13:00, 1:35:20 and 1:37:45 in the video below).



This doesn't mean he has to play as a permanent mid but we should see guys like Guthrie, Duncan and Parfitt attend a lot more center clearances. In contrast the rules don't really suit guys like Menegola and both Selwoods who are bigger bodies, good on the inside but fairly slow and tend to bang the ball on the boot at times. It could even be a smart move for Guthrie to attend the center bounce then shift towards defence while someone like J Selwood or Menegola line up in the forward 50 but then shift in to midfield once the game develops.

Stop deviating from the accepted narrative!
You're making it look like we chose the wrong scapegoat.

He's good without being great, he'll probably continue to be good without being great.

 

[Spazz Cat]

Weird how players who are crap for ages are called scapegoats.
Then when they start playing well they're not.

 

[Turbocat]

Weird how players who are crap for ages are called scapegoats.
Then when they start playing well they're not.

yeah then when they start paying really well they just call them goat

 

[bigfarter]

I hope we can have multiple scapegoat threads running through the season, otherwise I fear you've gone too early. Cam cops a pasting, for sure, but we still have James Parsons on our list and I'm tipping Dahlhaus and Rohan are going to be sweet ire-conductors on this board. And our ruck division!

I've given up the hope I once had of Cam being elite. He showed so much promise early as a defender and can still do good things in the midfield but he just has weaknesses that never seem to be addressed - namely: handballing to teammates who are under more pressure than he is; often standing off the play waiting for an easy possession; not chasing hard; not warning teammates when they're being chased down; getting caught HTB regularly.

And I LIKE Cam but those are traits of his game that I can't deny and I'm starting to doubt they'll ever be remedied. It's such a shame because he does still do good things (3rd quarter in that game as an example) and he has plenty of talent - I don't know if it's coaching or lack of ambition or motivation but he just hasn't developed to where most think he should. He's like a guy who starts a new job, makes a great impression, gets popular and then rides that impression and popularity while never improving on (or even maintaining) the early effort which saw him get the plaudits. A decent part of the team but a bit of a letdown.

 

[Spazz Cat]

yeah then when they start paying really well they just call them goat

Hehe. True. But... you've just gotta play well.
Remember Motlop the scapegoat. Came out and played an awesome finals series. Them we were upset he left.
Stanley? He was fu**en s**t and sucked arse.
Played with some heart for a couple of months and opinions changed.
I'll admit the coach played a part in these but Lingy, Mackie, Blitz.
They ended up finding a way and played awesome and we loved them.
They found a way and all had disadvantages with either skills, speed or body shape.
If Guthrie's any good it's up to him and maybe the coach to stop him from being a "scapegoat"
Just stop being crap, put some heart in and fu**en play like you've been in the system for fu**en 9 years.

 

[ButterMill]

Former Cuthrie fan, now I think he's holding us back.

He looked a player and through development (?) has become a liability on the field with his decision making and skill execution. Unfortunately the self belief appears to have carried on the trajectory of stardom which exacerbates the problem.

Watching some poor ball users this weekend, I thought maybe space from 666 would help them compose and hit targets. However the handful I was scouting looked similarly bad and the counter punishment meant it was potentially worse.

Cuthrie is paid too much for the return. Too liked by our coaching staff. Should be in the VFL and then off the list if there isn't some unexpected transformation as I'd rather see other players have the chance in the firsts.

That's a classic scapegoat template I suspect

 

[Strange Cat]

Geez one pre season game

 

[CatToTheFuture]

Former Cuthrie fan, now I think he's holding us back.

He looked a player and through development (?) has become a liability on the field with his decision making and skill execution. Unfortunately the self belief appears to have carried on the trajectory of stardom which exacerbates the problem.

Watching some poor ball users this weekend, I thought maybe space from 666 would help them compose and hit targets. However the handful I was scouting looked similarly bad and the counter punishment meant it was potentially worse.

Cuthrie is paid too much for the return. Too liked by our coaching staff. Should be in the VFL and then off the list if there isn't some unexpected transformation as I'd rather see other players have the chance in the firsts.

That's a classic scapegoat template I suspect

Definitely the template for a scapegoat, the expectations people had for him were high.

 

[Down at K Park]

I’d love to know if the coach’s highlight some of his insipid efforts in the video reviews. And also wether he cops critisism from them for his hospital passes.


Still pushing for the cam guthrie wing at geelong hospital.

 

[you pick one]

Scapegoat or simply just not best 22,I think the latter with or without 666,He's poor defensively,often make token efforts to chase and tackle, pron to taking short steps and hand off to teammates under pressure to avoid being tackled himself,.Runs one way.VFL and trade table end of year.
I was once a fan.

 

[you pick one]

I’d love to know if the coach’s highlight some of his insipid efforts in the video reviews. And also wether he cops critisism from them for his hospital passes.


Still pushing for the cam guthrie wing at geelong hospital.

They can't be he's just been given a 3 year extension on his contract,how did that happen.In before the club can do no wrong brigade.

 

[FredLeDeux]

Scapegoat or simply just not best 22,I think the latter with or without 666,He's poor defensively,make token efforts to chase and tackle, pron to taking short steps and hand off to teammates under pressure to avoid being tackled himself,.Runs one way.VFL and trade table end of year.
I was once a fan.

Re your address, back when I was on the game, I came across an American solicitor working with one of the big mobs, and in a complicated multi-party deal, we needed 4 or 5 shelf companies in a hurry.
She said she had some ready, and produced the required number, all with Spanish sounding names.
I asked her about the names, and she said she grew up in New Mexico, and these were all named for old NM mining ghost towns.

PS, she charged us real-life prices for them, though.

 

[you pick one]

I hope we can have multiple scapegoat threads running through the season, otherwise I fear you've gone too early. Cam cops a pasting, for sure, but we still have James Parsons on our list and I'm tipping Dahlhaus and Rohan are going to be sweet ire-conductors on this board. And our ruck division!

I've given up the hope I once had of Cam being elite. He showed so much promise early as a defender and can still do good things in the midfield but he just has weaknesses that never seem to be addressed - namely: handballing to teammates who are under more pressure than he is; often standing off the play waiting for an easy possession; not chasing hard; not warning teammates when they're being chased down; getting caught HTB regularly.

And I LIKE Cam but those are traits of his game that I can't deny and I'm starting to doubt they'll ever be remedied. It's such a shame because he does still do good things (3rd quarter in that game as an example) and he has plenty of talent - I don't know if it's coaching or lack of ambition or motivation but he just hasn't developed to where most think he should. He's like a guy who starts a new job, makes a great impression, gets popular and then rides that impression and popularity while never improving on (or even maintaining) the early effort which saw him get the plaudits. A decent part of the team but a bit of a letdown.

To much focus on self preservation,needs to go when it's his turn,occasionally you have to take one for the team,it's not happening.Easy to say from here of cause,but that's his chosen field.

 

[you pick one]

Re your address, back when I was on the game, I came across an American solicitor working with one of the big mobs, and in a complicated multi-party deal, we needed 4 or 5 shelf companies in a hurry.
She said she had some ready, and produced the required number, all with Spanish sounding names.
I asked her about the names, and she said she grew up in New Mexico, and these were all named for old NM mining ghost towns.

PS, she charged us real-life prices for them, though.

You are an interesting man Fred,I'd shout you a coldie if we were closer.

 

[James1970]

A trivial point, but anyone else hoping Cam came back after the break with a shaved-head, or at least short back and sides?

I wait in vain for the day the club releases a Full Metal Jacket-like montage of Cam in the barber's chair being made to look like a footy player.

 

[Max Milburn]

A trivial point, but anyone else hoping Cam came back after the break with a shaved-head, or at least short back and sides?

I wait in vain for the day the club releases a Full Metal Jacket-like montage of Cam in the barber's chair being made to look like a footy player.

If someone had've insisted I get haircut back when I was playing, I would have politely asked them to EAD.

 

[Landgraft]

A trivial point, but anyone else hoping Cam came back after the break with a shaved-head, or at least short back and sides?

I wait in vain for the day the club releases a Full Metal Jacket-like montage of Cam in the barber's chair being made to look like a footy player.

If you're fantasising over Guthrie haircuts you've gone too deep.

 

[FredLeDeux]

A trivial point, but anyone else hoping Cam came back after the break with a shaved-head, or at least short back and sides?

I wait in vain for the day the club releases a Full Metal Jacket-like montage of Cam in the barber's chair being made to look like a footy player.

Russ Petherbridge salutes you.

 

[Grumpy HalfCat]

He works hard and for all I know is a great clubman. But players like him and Murdoch getting into the 100s of games is an indictment on our injury management and recruiting. He doesn’t get results on the field, and clearly has had so many chances that all speculation about his abilities needs to cease. He’s not getting any better.

 

[cynical]

A trivial point, but anyone else hoping Cam came back after the break with a shaved-head, or at least short back and sides?

I wait in vain for the day the club releases a Full Metal Jacket-like montage of Cam in the barber's chair being made to look like a footy player.

Agree, Cam needs to shave his head wear black footy boots and focus on playing on the wing for the whole season.

Has been ruined by being constantly moved around and our slow defensive game style.