Almost. I agree he's not in his best form, but not as bad as you may believe from reading on here (not aimed just at you either PB). I will differ from others, still think his best value is in midfield now.
Opinion Cam Guthrie - out of form? (and tangential Supercoach as guide to form discussion)
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Almost. I agree he's not in his best form, but not as bad as you may believe from reading on here (not aimed just at you either PB). I will differ from others, still think his best value is in midfield now.
catempire
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Stick to the topic.
PatrickBateman
Norm Smith Medallist
My thought's of him as a mid are clear.. but
The method of returning players to their best form is a good discussion point. I don't agree that people management in general should follow a 'one process for all' system. Chris Scott and Co. seem to though, they just rotate the fringe players in and out.
We've seen in the past that they've played, and played certain players in hope / faith that they'll reach a certain level, then traded them.
If Guthrie won't be dropped (obviously he won't), I don't understand why they wouldn't put him behind the footy to get some cheap(er) stats, and gain some confidence. He got upset with the umpires on the weekend, and gave away a 50m penalty. Out of character I would have thought, plus his form is obviously poor to anyone with a clue. Change would seem logical.
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I wouldn't mind Guthrie being moved to the back line for the remaining of the year. Ruggles has filled the spot so far but I'm far from convinced about his ability. His kicking can be questionable as well as not keeping his feet on a regular bases.
With S.Selwood to come in a prove his worth to the team and Menogola looking to cement his place, there's replacements available to cover Guthrie's move down back. They may not be like for like but with Guthrie's cool head down back over Ruggles is a move we should consider. Guthrie is an inside and outside player and with an inside player like Selwood coming in, l wouldn't mind seeing Lang come in and play on the outside at Cowan's expense.
With S.Selwood to come in a prove his worth to the team and Menogola looking to cement his place, there's replacements available to cover Guthrie's move down back. They may not be like for like but with Guthrie's cool head down back over Ruggles is a move we should consider. Guthrie is an inside and outside player and with an inside player like Selwood coming in, l wouldn't mind seeing Lang come in and play on the outside at Cowan's expense.
Is Guthrie a good enough one-on-one defender though? Not that Ruggles is perfect, but his focus is more on stopping his direct opponent and then attacking second which is probably opposite to what Guthrie's would be. Guth has more of an attacking mindset
cats_09
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While he only got 15 disposals this past weekend, he had 25 disposals the previous 2 matches; and at no stage this year has he had consecutive matches with disposal counts in the teens. So he is able to find plenty of the ball, that really isn't a problem; the issue is him having the confidence to play as he did earlier in the year.
What I think will help him is the return of Caddy to the midfield. Once Caddy is back in the seniors, he gives us another big body option for contest situations which then allows guys like Duncan and Guthrie to play as more outside players and hurt oppositions with their kicking ability and also pace.
One reason for Guthrie's increased hold the ball frees against could be as simple as he is getting the ball in a more congested situation which he then tries to break away from; if he is already on the outside of the contest it can give him that extra step gap on his opponent that he is currently not afforded
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PatrickBateman
Norm Smith Medallist
One of those 25 disposal games he only had 108 metres gained I'm pretty sure, which was lower than Hawkins in the same game! Obviously a poor return for a player you'd expect to be influential with the ball, being he's not a ball winner as such. His effectiveness has been poor too, stats show this despite disposal numbers, which don't tell the full story, you know that.
He's stopped taking the game on, he's consistently going backwards / sideways with his disposal. It's not playing to his strengths. When he's at his best, he's evasive, dealing out 'don't argues', running with the footy... as I said, taking the game on. I believe it's a confidence issue.
I agree. Though playing Guthrie in at centre clearances I simply don't understand. Caddy or Menegola should be in there with Danger / Selwood, Guthrie can run in out of defence and be an outsider around stoppages. Persisting with him as a mid starter makes no sense. His stats suggest he simply doesn't win the footy. This is a genuine failure of Matthew Knights.
Again, I say it's confidence. He's getting the ball in hand and doubting himself / getting caught, when before he'd back himself to take on opponents - and find a way out. His lack of metres gained backs this theory. He's been a bit of a deer in headlights for a while. Not that congestion is his thing, which is why I question him starting in the centre. He always looks like the last mid of the 6 prepared to dive on or beat someone else to the ball.
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Big body?
Caddy Height: 186cm Weight: 84kg
Guthrie Height: 187cm Weight: 84kg
I think you mean someone who'll put their head over the ball.. Which should be mandatory for any midfielder, but I get your point, Guthrie doesn't do it.
Art Vandelay_
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Ding ding ding. We have a winner ladies and gentlemen. This one gets it.
P.S. No doubt I'll scroll down and you've already been told "outside mid" is a cop out. LOL
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Caddy is a big chested individual though. He's the kind of person that could hit the gym after his footballing career is over with and compete in body building competitions such is his big boned stature.
Guthrie is like Murdoch. Slender athletic builds who are the modern day footballer. They would have been split in two if they existed in the 90's.
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Be interesting to see where he lines up this Sunday now that Selwood looks like playing.
Menegola, Selwood x 2, Dangerfield . . . suddenly, there is a bit of toughness in the middle all at one time.
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PatrickBateman
Norm Smith Medallist
Agree! Some greater variety in the rotations (+ hardness).
Guthrie not listed as a 'follower' for the first time in weeks, on the wing instead. I'd rather not see him at centre clearances, we clearly have too many better ball winning options in the side now.
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Maybe it's finally sunk in down there that he's not a midfielder.
Willo_
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He has good speed of the mark and is a neat spearing kick, playing him on the wing isn't the worst idea
I'd imagine the forwards would love leading to him the way he kicks the ball, very hard to defend
PatrickBateman
Norm Smith Medallist
There's an opinion at the club that he could be a great midfielder, I'd highly doubt it's shared by all. Just last night on AFL360, Dangerfield spoke of Scott Selwood, and his attributes (hard, tough), as being "just the attributes you want from a teammate". These are absent from Guthrie's game.
The Guthrie / midfield idea has been tried. Not just this year, but last year, unsuccessfully. One could argue that we had limited options to date, but that is no longer an issue. As it stands, we can't afford to wait for him to find form at this point of the season, not that I believe he's a fit for the midfield anyway.
A healthy team culture promotes opportunity, it shouldn't accept mediocrity.
Willo_
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I genuinely don't know if you are agreeing with my post or trying to argue with me...
catempire
Premium Platinum
That's easy. If you were potting Guthrie, he agrees. If you were giving any sort of praise, he disagrees.
This is how I've seen it.
From the Dockers game on, Guthrie has been thrown more into the middle, particularly in the 1st Q. It may have happened in the Swans game prior, can't remember. He has almost been run as our number one inside mid early in each game. This had 2 outcomes: Guthrie struggled, but the mids as a group provided a better output. Selwood and Dangerfield, when they got used to the setup, became more dangerous around the ground. Other lesser mids got more involved in the game. This setup actually enabled Menegola to play the debut game he did. We are a much more potent midfield setup like this, then when Selwood and Dangerfield have taken over the middle and were competing "who's the King Of The Castle?", shutting lesser lights out of the game.
This is the irony. Scott said himself that the midfield is operating more evenly, and therefore better.
From the Dockers game on, Guthrie has been thrown more into the middle, particularly in the 1st Q. It may have happened in the Swans game prior, can't remember. He has almost been run as our number one inside mid early in each game. This had 2 outcomes: Guthrie struggled, but the mids as a group provided a better output. Selwood and Dangerfield, when they got used to the setup, became more dangerous around the ground. Other lesser mids got more involved in the game. This setup actually enabled Menegola to play the debut game he did. We are a much more potent midfield setup like this, then when Selwood and Dangerfield have taken over the middle and were competing "who's the King Of The Castle?", shutting lesser lights out of the game.
This is the irony. Scott said himself that the midfield is operating more evenly, and therefore better.
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Coming from someone who's admittedly ignorant regarding Guthrie' ability as a midfielder.. Nice one.
Willing to contribute anything of worth?
Pivo
Brownlow Medallist
Like many things, the whole is greater than the sum of its parts.
Players get tasked with performing certain roles and, if all players are performing these roles, there tends to be an improvement in the output as a whole.
Leaving out Dangerfield and Selwood (who are both outstanding on the inside and the outside), Guthrie's role to me seems to be more as a "bridge" between the other contested, inside players like Menegola, Caddy and, this week, S. Selwood and the players who are classed more "outside" like Duncan and Motlop. In my mind this is supported by the kick to handball ratio Guthrie has exhibited in 2016 (and this was even the case when Guthrie was playing better earlier in the year - arguably his best game this season, against Adelaide in Adelaide, he had 10 more handballs than kicks) where he is trying to set up players in better positions or to try and clear the congestion by hand.
As armchair experts we often scoff at comments like "role" and "structure" but the fact they get uttered so regularly suggests these words hold some importance with coaches and players.
Like all opinions, stats and obversations will try to be used to support a particular viewpoint.
While I'll happily put my hand up and state that I like (and prefer) Guthrie in the middle (I also don't think he has been terrible in there), my eyes are telling me he appears down on form in recent times. As such, I don't think moving him to the back-flank, especially with Menegola, Caddy and S. Selwood now available, and having him spend more time in defence is a s**t idea (although I suspect it isn't likely to happen).
If it helps him regain some confidence and touch (after all, he isn't likely to be dropped this late) then that is to the benefit of the side as a whole.
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So the rationale is (4 weeks before the finals) you drop a back-men to move Guthrie back who hasn't played in defense for over 2 years?
So now the team needs to compromise structure to 'hopefully' get Guthrie back in form?
..and why assume that moving Guthrie back will help him find form as a midfielder? I guess it could work but from a coaching perspective it's clutching at straws and I'd hope our coaches wouldn't resort to it.
PatrickBateman
Norm Smith Medallist
Geelong's midfield is severely compromised when Selwood and Dangerfield don't dominate, even when they're a little off the side seems to feel it. This has been clearly identified by all the experts. The above just looks like an excuse to me. When players are down, other's should stand up, that's what a team is all about. When Dangerfield and Selwood have been down in our losses, Guthrie has joined them. We've started playing better in recent weeks, yet he still looks the weak link.
I agree with what you're saying regarding players having roles, and these can alter slightly from game to game. However, the fundamentals of what's expected from a midfielder does NOT. They need to win the footy. And I'm talking about those starting in the centre primarily. Guthrie's ball winning stats are very, very average. Think of any 'great' midfield. There's no room for such players. Let's get the midfield as good as it possibly can be, let's give other's the opportunity to help Dangerfield and Selwood be even better! Those who can be depended on to win contested footy, to be physical if and when the stars aren't there. 'Bridge'?? Really?
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