Cam Rayner

[Happy_Neale]

That's a foolish argument.

2018: 13.5 disposals, 3.5 marks, 0.9 goals
2024: 14.6 disposals, 3.2 marks, 1.1 goals.

And you're making a case that he has improved? That's horrendous. He's getting more cba's now too so you could argue he has actually got worse
.

So you are saying he has not improved since year one. That is your argument? Just making sure I understand the point you’re making

 

[paulige]

No, please, withdraw the question.

We can apply Dan's reasoning to the Fritsch GF uncontested chest mark masterclass, seeing his team won by 74 points.

Oh no, Daniel is both the trap, and the one trapped! How meta.

To be fair, Fritsch requires a bigger discount to his effort as they won by 50+% more than we did (48 V Port).

Interestingly, the name Daniel is believed to mean “God is my judge”, which is obviously a mistranslation of the correct meaning “God, the judge”.

 

[jonnobackpocket]

He was a beast vs Sydney but can he be consistent and do it for more than once every 3 months?

Once every 3 months hey, might want to have a look at the last 6 games. Has kicked a goal if not multiple goals for the last 6 weeks playing mainly as a small forward. That’s on top of making a mess of both Melbourne and Sydney and snagging 3 against Adelaide. Try again

 

[Footy Smarts]

He's a restricted free agent next year. I wonder what offers he gets. Does someone go big and back themselves to turn him into the best player in the comp? It would be a big risk but with massive potential reward.

 

[KissKiss]

May want to ask Cam 'Gary' Rayner how he stays away from the ball. They literally tried him at half back to literally make it super easy to get some easy ball and he still couldn't find the pill. Embarrassing trial that one.

This is completely false and we have covered this several times, yet its another thing you keep "forgetting".

He played third tall not the half back flank. We had almost no tall back coverage and he trialled helping out in the third tall role until guys (Gardiner and Lester) came back from injury. Actually might be forced into the same role again this week.

 

[Elixuh]

150 pages, great milestone

 

[danster168]

So you are saying he has not improved since year one. That is your argument? Just making sure I understand the point you’re making

I'm saying look at the stats and make your own inference. It's pretty clear to me.
2018: 13.5 disposals, 3.5 marks, 0.9 goals
2024: 14.6 disposals, 3.2 marks, 1.1 goals.

 

[danster168]

This is completely false and we have covered this several times, yet its another thing you keep "forgetting".

He played third tall not the half back flank. We had almost no tall back coverage and he trialled helping out in the third tall role until guys (Gardiner and Lester) came back from injury. Actually might be forced into the same role again this week.

3rd tall at 187cm lol. there's nothing tall about that. I'm happy to be proven wrong if you can show me some evidence. I have evidence that he was practicing at half back for quite some time.

 

[3207]

Floggster168 the Charlie Spargo of big footy.

The reason why the Giants lost half their zone. Him and Harrison Macreadie.

True story.

 

[paulige]

This is completely false and we have covered this several times, yet its another thing you keep "forgetting".

He played third tall not the half back flank. We had almost no tall back coverage and he trialled helping out in the third tall role until guys (Gardiner and Lester) came back from injury. Actually might be forced into the same role again this week.

If Cam plays as a key defender this week, my money is on "0 goals, no clearances, spud".

 

[paulige]

3rd tall at 187cm lol. there's nothing tall about that. I'm happy to be proven wrong if you can show me some evidence. I have evidence that he was practicing at half back for quite some time.

Being asked to 'play tall', and being tall, are two different things.

 

[KissKiss]

3rd tall at 187cm lol. there's nothing tall about that. I'm happy to be proven wrong if you can show me some evidence. I have evidence that he was practicing at half back for quite some time.

I severely doubt you have any evidence of anything.

At the start of 2023 we had Marcus Adams, Darcy Gardiner, Darragh Joyce and Ryan Lester unavailable. We were lining up with a backline of Andrews, Payne and 4 smalls (Coleman, Rich, Wilmot and Starcevich). Rayner was the starting third tall defender making up the 7 standard defensive line up. You should note that Fagan is definitely a stickler for his formation that 99% time includes 3 talls at either end of the ground. This lasted until round 3 when we selected Joyce who was the late rookie pick up and who was the first of the other tall defenders to become fit enough to play. Rayner then moved back to his standard forward/mid role.

Again it was nothing of an embarrassing trial to feed him the ball at half back. We had an excess of half backs to start the year - Rich, Coleman, Wilmot, McKenna, Prior and Starcevich. Rayner did not get a distributor role over any of these guys. He was plan and simple coverage of the fact we had no spare tall backs. And not exactly a high volume accumulator at most clubs.

Here is an article from February 2023: https://www.afl.com.au/news/875468/...-the-cards-for-star-brisbane-lions-cam-rayner
It quotes to open the article:
BRISBANE is trialling the shock move of playing Cam Rayner in defence.

The former No.1 draft pick has been used in the back half during match simulation sessions this pre-season, with coach Chris Fagan confirming to AFL.com.au the move was a serious consideration.

Rayner has played as a third tall defender, one with some freedom to intercept mark.

 

[jonnobackpocket]

The reason why the Giants lost half their zone. Him and Harrison Macreadie.

True story.

Ouch- hardly seems worth it.

 

[Happy_Neale]

I'm saying look at the stats and make your own inference. It's pretty clear to me.
2018: 13.5 disposals, 3.5 marks, 0.9 goals
2024: 14.6 disposals, 3.2 marks, 1.1 goals.

You would have been a great analyst of 1960’s backyard footy Dan.

 

[jonnobackpocket]

I severely doubt you have any evidence of anything.

At the start of 2023 we had Marcus Adams, Darcy Gardiner, Darragh Joyce and Ryan Lester unavailable. We were lining up with a backline of Andrews, Payne and 4 smalls (Coleman, Rich, Wilmot and Starcevich). Rayner was the starting third tall defender making up the 7 standard defensive line up. You should note that Fagan is definitely a stickler for his formation that 99% time includes 3 talls at either end of the ground. This lasted until round 3 when we selected Joyce who was the late rookie pick up and who was the first of the other tall defenders to become fit enough to play. Rayner then moved back to his standard forward/mid role.

Again it was nothing of an embarrassing trial to feed him the ball at half back. We had an excess of half backs to start the year - Rich, Coleman, Wilmot, McKenna, Prior and Starcevich. Rayner did not get a distributor role over any of these guys. He was plan and simple coverage of the fact we had no spare tall backs. And not exactly a high volume accumulator at most clubs.

Here is an article from February 2023: https://www.afl.com.au/news/875468/...-the-cards-for-star-brisbane-lions-cam-rayner
It quotes to open the article:
BRISBANE is trialling the shock move of playing Cam Rayner in defence.

The former No.1 draft pick has been used in the back half during match simulation sessions this pre-season, with coach Chris Fagan confirming to AFL.com.au the move was a serious consideration.

Rayner has played as a third tall defender, one with some freedom to intercept mark.

That’s good evidence KK. I feel an all Australian or 6 goal in a grand final post coming. Can’t wait.

 

[Happy_Neale]

danster168 since apparently stats do matter for you despite your nonsense protests otherwise, I have provided an updated comparison below. Which player would you take, seeing as though stats are all that matter to you? Also note player on the left has 24 coaches votes, player on the right has zero.

 

[KissKiss]

That’s good evidence KK. I feel an all Australian or 6 goal in a grand final post coming. Can’t wait.

That or he'll do another 10+ year search of my comments to try and misquote something again.

 

[danster168]

I severely doubt you have any evidence of anything.

At the start of 2023 we had Marcus Adams, Darcy Gardiner, Darragh Joyce and Ryan Lester unavailable. We were lining up with a backline of Andrews, Payne and 4 smalls (Coleman, Rich, Wilmot and Starcevich). Rayner was the starting third tall defender making up the 7 standard defensive line up. You should note that Fagan is definitely a stickler for his formation that 99% time includes 3 talls at either end of the ground. This lasted until round 3 when we selected Joyce who was the late rookie pick up and who was the first of the other tall defenders to become fit enough to play. Rayner then moved back to his standard forward/mid role.

Again it was nothing of an embarrassing trial to feed him the ball at half back. We had an excess of half backs to start the year - Rich, Coleman, Wilmot, McKenna, Prior and Starcevich. Rayner did not get a distributor role over any of these guys. He was plan and simple coverage of the fact we had no spare tall backs. And not exactly a high volume accumulator at most clubs.

Here is an article from February 2023: https://www.afl.com.au/news/875468/...-the-cards-for-star-brisbane-lions-cam-rayner
It quotes to open the article:
BRISBANE is trialling the shock move of playing Cam Rayner in defence.

The former No.1 draft pick has been used in the back half during match simulation sessions this pre-season, with coach Chris Fagan confirming to AFL.com.au the move was a serious consideration.

Rayner has played as a third tall defender, one with some freedom to intercept mark.

Appreciate the article. I guess the bolded sentence doesn't really answer anyone's side to the argument though. Playing with the freedom to intercept mark can also be interpreted as 'we'll play Cam on the oppositions 3rd tall and give him the licence to roam wherever he wants to find the pill'.

I'm not saying that you didn't have an excess of half backs, I'm saying it was an attempt to bring Rayner into the game because he simply couldn't get near it in the midfield.

Hell even this year, all of the Rayner posters here were telling me he was the next midfield bull. What happened to that? Now all of a sudden they're saying 'Nah he's better in the forward line'. It seems like even Brisbane fans chop and change. Blind Freddie could see that Rayner doesn't have the tank or the game sense to find the ball in the midfield. I think when he had about 25 touches against the dees in round 5 all the Rayner fans said 'he's the next Petracca' i.e. a midfield beast that can go forward and all of this nonsense. And then literally the following weeks he went 14, 9, 16, 10, 14, and 7 possessions for an average of 11.6 possessions with 0.8 goals a game. Then Rayner fans changed their tune, and conveniently pivoted to saying 'he's a forward'.

That's why Rayner hasn't earned the right for fans to gush over the odd good game here and there. He went a 6 week spell, between rounds 6-11 where he went 11.6 touches and 0.83 goals a game. That's warranting being dropped in any team in the afl for someone that doesn't have credits in the bank from previous seasons.

 

[danster168]

danster168 since apparently stats do matter for you despite your nonsense protests otherwise, I have provided an updated comparison below. Which player would you take, seeing as though stats are all that matter to you? Also note player on the left has 24 coaches votes, player on the right has zero.

View attachment 2057491

Lol. not even going to analyse this. Stop comparing a C grader with a known A grader of the comp with credits in the bank and accolades and multiple AA squads and bags in granny's. it's embarrassing.


You can compare Daniel Turner or Gary Rohan or something.

 

[dmac_55]

Appreciate the article. I guess the bolded sentence doesn't really answer anyone's side to the argument though. Playing with the freedom to intercept mark can also be interpreted as 'we'll play Cam on the oppositions 3rd tall and give him the licence to roam wherever he wants to find the pill'.

I'm not saying that you didn't have an excess of half backs, I'm saying it was an attempt to bring Rayner into the game because he simply couldn't get near it in the midfield.

Hell even this year, all of the Rayner posters here were telling me he was the next midfield bull. What happened to that? Now all of a sudden they're saying 'Nah he's better in the forward line'. It seems like even Brisbane fans chop and change. Blind Freddie could see that Rayner doesn't have the tank or the game sense to find the ball in the midfield. I think when he had about 25 touches against the dees in round 5 all the Rayner fans said 'he's the next Petracca' i.e. a midfield beast that can go forward and all of this nonsense. And then literally the following weeks he went 14, 9, 16, 10, 14, and 7 possessions for an average of 11.6 possessions with 0.8 goals a game. Then Rayner fans changed their tune, and conveniently pivoted to saying 'he's a forward'.

That's why Rayner hasn't earned the right for fans to gush over the odd good game here and there. He went a 6 week spell, between rounds 6-11 where he went 11.6 touches and 0.83 goals a game. That's warranting being dropped in any team in the afl for someone that doesn't have credits in the bank from previous seasons.

You have to tell us what position he should play. You follow him closer than any of us??

Is he a forward and needs 50 goals? That is hard in a stacked forward line to do
Is he a mid/forward and needs 23 and 1.2 goals a game?
Is he a mid and needs 25+ (once again hard to do in a stacked midfield)

You were asking before but I am going to predict the rest of his season averages:

15.8 touches per game
1.3 goals per game
Plus high levels of tackling, score involvements

That would be a great effort and a top 100 player in the comp I think

 

[Happy_Neale]

Lol. not even going to analyse this. Stop comparing a C grader with a known A grader of the comp with credits in the bank and accolades and multiple AA squads and bags in granny's. it's embarrassing.


You can compare Daniel Turner or Gary Rohan or something.

Why won’t you answer? Could be it that maybe stats aren’t the be all and end all? Or because would that involve you admitting you have been wrong about something which is way too much to ask

 

[danster168]

Why won’t you answer? Could be it that maybe stats aren’t the be all and end all? Or because would that involve you admitting you have been wrong about something which is way too much to ask

which bit? I'll take the forward who is kicking 1.9 goals per game on the oppo's best defender over a guy who is getting cba's and getting only 14.6 touches a game. There is only 1 elite stat on that page. And that's 1.9.

 

[danster168]

You have to tell us what position he should play. You follow him closer than any of us??

Is he a forward and needs 50 goals? That is hard in a stacked forward line to do
Is he a mid/forward and needs 23 and 1.2 goals a game?
Is he a mid and needs 25+ (once again hard to do in a stacked midfield)

You were asking before but I am going to predict the rest of his season averages:

15.8 touches per game
1.3 goals per game
Plus high levels of tackling, score involvements

That would be a great effort and a top 100 player in the comp I think

Thank you DMac! The first guy that has ever actually put their neck out on the line. Immediate respect. Right or wrong, I tip my hat.

Cam is a forward imo. He has the physical traits to play midfield but just doesn't have the ball finding ability to play there.

 

[KissKiss]

Appreciate the article. I guess the bolded sentence doesn't really answer anyone's side to the argument though. Playing with the freedom to intercept mark can also be interpreted as 'we'll play Cam on the oppositions 3rd tall and give him the licence to roam wherever he wants to find the pill'.

I'm not saying that you didn't have an excess of half backs, I'm saying it was an attempt to bring Rayner into the game because he simply couldn't get near it in the midfield.

Hell even this year, all of the Rayner posters here were telling me he was the next midfield bull. What happened to that? Now all of a sudden they're saying 'Nah he's better in the forward line'. It seems like even Brisbane fans chop and change. Blind Freddie could see that Rayner doesn't have the tank or the game sense to find the ball in the midfield. I think when he had about 25 touches against the dees in round 5 all the Rayner fans said 'he's the next Petracca' i.e. a midfield beast that can go forward and all of this nonsense. And then literally the following weeks he went 14, 9, 16, 10, 14, and 7 possessions for an average of 11.6 possessions with 0.8 goals a game. Then Rayner fans changed their tune, and conveniently pivoted to saying 'he's a forward'.

That's why Rayner hasn't earned the right for fans to gush over the odd good game here and there. He went a 6 week spell, between rounds 6-11 where he went 11.6 touches and 0.83 goals a game. That's warranting being dropped in any team in the afl for someone that doesn't have credits in the bank from previous seasons.

And I keep saying it was not done for that reason at all. It was extremely clear we had a shortage of key backs (actually similar to now and I wouldnt be surprised if he went back again this week). In the Fagan system the tall backs all have a big licence to go for intercept marks yet dont rack up huge disposal numbers. Its not a role you would put someone in to try and get them into the game.

Harris Andrews is probably in the top 3 interceptors in the comp and he only averages about 13 disposals a game. Our second and third talls (the role Rayner played for about a month across the pre-season and rounds 1-2) are generally about the top 20 for intercepts and also only generally have 10-14 disposals a game.

Im not arguing about the whole midfield vs forward role that he normally plays and what the right mix of the two roles is for him. Nor am I talking about his current run of form. But I am again pointing out that you keep making a bunch of false claims like this one about Rayner playing half back and that you have evidence to prove it.

 

[KissKiss]

You have to tell us what position he should play. You follow him closer than any of us??

Is he a forward and needs 50 goals? That is hard in a stacked forward line to do
Is he a mid/forward and needs 23 and 1.2 goals a game?
Is he a mid and needs 25+ (once again hard to do in a stacked midfield)

You were asking before but I am going to predict the rest of his season averages:

15.8 touches per game
1.3 goals per game
Plus high levels of tackling, score involvements

That would be a great effort and a top 100 player in the comp I think

That's probably the better way to put it. A pure average is hard to guess as he mixes between forward and mid so much. Without knowing the mix of roles you have to end up with somewhere between 10-20 disposals and 1-2 goals a game. But also showing that the high impact tackles, pressure moments, goal assists and score involvements are what really separates him from being average to very good in the role he plays