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. You gotta love someone who supports their arguments with irrefutable evidence. 
. If you repeat them over and over they are sort of mesmeric, poetic, and they have a type of rythm to them. Thus:
. Pick 4 for a player whose best year so far puts him around the indicated level of around 20 other players in similar roles. . And pick 18 for Chuck Spargo, a disciplined small forward of no special note. . I love your faith in your players. 
You based the fact that you rated Rayner more than Fritsch because Rayner is younger. That's all you said. Nothing he's done on field. All hype and speculation. He is basically a far worse version of Colin Sylvia.Says it is really easy to cherry pick stats….then proves it.
Do you really think your handpicked trio of stats tell "the full story?” Hmmmm.
In any event, I don’t know why you should be so outraged about my post as I had already said on the thread that I rated Rayner around pick 10 value and Fritsch in the low teens and already explained why, and you had already responded to these points. You have committed to your own assessment. You are entitled to question my ratings but I sreadfastly refuse to allow you to be shocked by learning something you already knew.
In my post I explained fully my criteria and it is different to yours, so it is for sure that alone will lead us to different ratings. You didn’t state it but it seems evident you are re-ordering the draft as at end of season 2017. I am placing values on the players as at the end of season 2022. So age is obviously going to be more of a factor in my ratings than yours, how could it not be? Would you change your order at all if you used my criteria?
Your use of hysterically dramatic language like “no-one in their right mind would…” “audacity” “blasphemy” “totally disrespectful” “no logical reason” “how on earth” and “in what world” are like music to my eyes.
audacity, blasphemy, totally disrepectful, no logical reason(spoken with emphasis then pause) how on earth, no-one in their right mind would, in what world(in a plaintive strain).
audacity, blasphemy, totally disrepectful, no logical reason(spoken with emphasis then pause) how on earth, no-one in their right mind would, in what world(in a plaintive strain).
audacity, blasphemy, totally disrepectful, no logical reason(spoken with emphasis then pause) how on earth, no-one in their right mind would, in what world(in a plaintive strain).
You have such a gift for words, just beautiful.
All will be told in time danster168. We have our ratings and rankings to refer back to. One thing I know for certain is my ratings will be wrong. As will yours. It just remains to be seen who is more wrong.
But let this be known: you are giving up pick 4 for a man who gets 10 disposals and 2.6 goals + goals assists per game playing mainly as the deepest forward in a Premiership team.
Recent history of pick 4: N Daicos, L McDonald, L Ash, M King, L Uniacke, B Ainsworth, C Oliver, J Pickett, M Bontempelli, J Toumpass, W Hoskin-Elliott, A Gaff.
Pick 18’s include: Georgiades, Duursma, Gresham, Heeney, Brodie Grundy, Shuey, Rance, Daniel Kerr since 2000.
So, pick 4 for Fritsch and pick 18 for Spargo…..
audacity, blasphemy, totally disrepectful, no logical reason(spoken with emphasis then pause) how on earth, no-one in their right mind would, in what world(in a plaintive strain).
audacity, blasphemy, totally disrepectful, no logical reason(spoken with emphasis then pause) how on earth, no-one in their right mind would, in what world(in a plaintive strain).
audacity, blasphemy, totally disrepectful, no logical reason(spoken with emphasis then pause) how on earth, no-one in their right mind would, in what world(in a plaintive strain).
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You based the fact that you rated Rayner more than Fritsch because Rayner is younger. That's all you said. Nothing he's done on field. All hype and speculation. He is basically a far worse version of Colin Sylvia.
For you to be correct, Rayner would have to be a multiple All-Australian and have multiple years of 50 goals plus. He will also have to produced in finals on the big stage with best on ground performances. The odds of him doing this are 0%. Not 10%, not 5% but 0%. The odds of him being delisted or traded within 3 seasons for pick 50+ is probably about 50%. You're also happy to keep giving Rayner more and more time even though you mark Fritsch down because he is older. So assuming Rayner does nothing this season, he would have produced 0 poor AFL seasons and Fritsch would likely have produced 4 good seasons and 1 elite season. So that's 5 years of production before Rayner even plays AFL standard footy. He can't catch that up. So time won't tell, it's already told.
Not sure what you're raving on about Pick 4 for? Yeah pick 4 for a guy that kicked the 2nd most games in the AFL last season and 6 in a granny which hasn't been done for 20 years. Why are talking about playing as a deep forward or not? Yeah, so is Tom Hawkins what's your point? And you're using stats from 4 games of footy instead of a whole season that's just passed. lol. how convenient. Shall we pull up Rayner's stats from the first 4 rounds?
Tell me, how many players kicked 59 goals or more? You say 20? Go on, list them!
Also what's your obsession with Melbourne being a premiership team? You know we're a premiership team because of our defence? And the reason why we are a premiership team is because Fritsch went nuts in the finals like a clutch player. We kicked like the 6th most goals of any team last year. So it's not like we kicked many goals like you were alluding to.
Also out of those pick 4's, Fritsch is better than Luke Mcdonald, Ash, Uniacke, Ainsworth, Pickett, Toumpas, Hoskin-Elliott and Gaff. So not sure why you listed them.
You undid all of your good work when you said Ed Richards was one of the best prospects in the AFL. LOL. ED RICHARDS!.
. I am going to guess his 4th was your favourite danster, because it was mine, excellent piece of play, displaying timing, balance, ball handling etc. Tell me though, which was his second best goal in your esteemed opinion? My second favourite was his first. You know, the one that was going to be a goal if he simply left it. And who was your favourite opponent he played on? Fringe player Williams, who seemed to have trouble not dropping uncontested marks straight into Fritsch’s lap? VFL player Josh Schache? Perhaps 32yo injury prone retiree Easton Wood?
With all due respect, your post is gibberish that barely relates to any of my posts in any meaningful way. Happy to discuss the points I have made but not so much the points you would like me to have made.
In summary though….
To be better than Fritsch under my plainly stated criteria, Rayner would just need to be a more valuable player than Fritsch from next year onwards. I am confident this will be the case, not certain, but confident. I am supremely confident however that Rayner will prove a more valuable player than Colin Sylvia R.I.P. from next year onwards.
The reason I referred to pick 4 is because you have Fritsch at pick 4 in your re-ordered 2017 draft. That is, from the 2017 draft, you think only Brayshaw, Naughton and Tim Kelly will prove to be better over their careers than Fritsch. For the record I think this is incorrect even by your unstated criteria, quite aside from the fact I used a very different criteria to re-rate my 2017 draft class.
Just to be clear, here are the 6 Fritsch Grand Final goals that have danster168 frothing at the mouth in excitement…stunning highlights package this.
Now, Fritsch played very well, took his chances etc, but I am not copping this is evidence he is any more than a 2.6 goals + goal assists, 10 disposal forward, of which at any given time there are roughly 20 or more in the AFL, as I have shown.
My final point is I am happy to back Ed Richards to be the 12th best player from the 2017 draft crop from 2023 onwards. I don’t resile from that.
You have your ways of rating players and teams and I have mine. I remember copping some flak on here because I was very bullish on the Demons future prospects in 2020, and said I rated Christian Petracca the most valuable player in the game, over Martin etc etc. So it is nothing new to me. You stick to predicting the past, and leave me to predict the future friend.
Would you accept a second rounder?
You misunderstand the post. The last line is not referring to the three players listed in my post, but the balance of a list of 11 players including those 3 from danster’s earlier post, which we were discussing before you rudely interrupted.
For the record danster asked me which on his list of 11 had less trade value than Rayner in order that I rated Rayner worth pick 10. I listed 3 to whom I thought this might apply.
With all due respect, your post is gibberish that barely relates to any of my posts in any meaningful way. Happy to discuss the points I have made but not so much the points you would like me to have made.
In summary though….
To be better than Fritsch under my plainly stated criteria, Rayner would just need to be a more valuable player than Fritsch from next year onwards. I am confident this will be the case, not certain, but confident. I am supremely confident however that Rayner will prove a more valuable player than Colin Sylvia R.I.P. from next year onwards.
The reason I referred to pick 4 is because you have Fritsch at pick 4 in your re-ordered 2017 draft. That is, from the 2017 draft, you think only Brayshaw, Naughton and Tim Kelly will prove to be better over their careers than Fritsch. For the record I think this is incorrect even by your unstated criteria, quite aside from the fact I used a very different criteria to re-rate my 2017 draft class.
Just to be clear, here are the 6 Fritsch Grand Final goals that have danster168 frothing at the mouth in excitement…stunning highlights package this.
Now, Fritsch played very well, took his chances etc, but I am not copping this is evidence he is any more than a 2.6 goals + goal assists, 10 disposal forward, of which at any given time there are roughly 20 or more in the AFL, as I have shown.
My final point is I am happy to back Ed Richards to be the 12th best player from the 2017 draft crop from 2023 onwards. I don’t resile from that.
You have your ways of rating players and teams and I have mine. I remember copping some flak on here because I was very bullish on the Demons future prospects in 2020, and said I rated Christian Petracca the most valuable player in the game, over Martin etc etc. So it is nothing new to me. You stick to predicting the past, and leave me to predict the future friend.
No. You were the one saying he wasn’t a top 15 player in the draft.
. Anyway, I rate your bloke a decent performer.
HAHAHAHAA, Harry McKay averages the SAME goal assists as Fritsch. haha BURN! I'd say mcKay is elite! Let me guess, McKay isn't because he doesn't get Goal Assists? haha. Man, do your research.
Darcy Lang, is he still in the league? lol. Let's ignore the 59 goal goal kicker and focus on these fellas. lol
HAHAHAHAA, Harry McKay averages the SAME goal assists as Fritsch. haha BURN! I'd say mcKay is elite! Let me guess, McKay isn't because he doesn't get Goal Assists? haha. Man, do your research.
I'll throw in Ben King, Larkey, Hipwood and Luke Jackson for good measure too
Your obsession with Goal Assists is nothing short of strange. If you average 1 goal assist a game you're elite. I thought Fritsch was the deepest forward for melbourne? lol.you just contradicted yourself.
Also Fritsch was 5th in goal avg, not 7th, and he isn' 297t for GA, he's 262nd and because you've conveniently done average instead of total, there's about 100 players that have played under 5 games which skews that number, well done.
With regards to his 11th best and fairest position, we had 5 All-Australians (Gawn, Oliver, Petracca, Lever and May) so at best he's going to come 6th. Steven May, the best full back in the league only finished 7th.
Question, do you not think if you make the AA you're not elite? I want this question answered. And if so, who else in the AA squad is not elite?
Dude, you had Ed Richards above Fritsch. you can't recover from that dribble. Rayner has literally done nothing. zilch in the afl yet.
View attachment 1372085
2020's leaders in Goal Assists. So many elite players mate! hahahahha Ben Ronke what a superstar! Keegan Brooksby step right up son.
www.foxsports.com.au
You have an alarming amount of free time on your hands.Bailey Fritsch is not an elite AFL footballer, which I think is normally defined as being in the top 10% in your role. However it is worked out, here is Champion Data’s list of elite players in the AFL after 2021.
Brownlow winner misses out; love for trade bait: Shocks galore as AFL’s 2022 elite revealed
Brownlow winner misses out; love for trade bait: Shocks galore as AFL’s 2022 elite revealed
Fyi McKay is also not considered elite. You are making the mistake of looking at the Coleman Medal standings and thinking that equates to a list from top to bottom of the best AFL forwards. It doesn’t.
Why goal assists are important is because when you add a players goals + goal assists together you get a lot better indication of their scoreboard impact, than just going by goals alone.
And Fritsch was 7th on goals per game average, not 5th as you claim:
View attachment 1372172Goals + Goal Assists I make:
3.5 Walker
3.4 Franklin, T Greene
3.3 McKay, Hawkins
3.2 J Cameron
3.1 Riewoldt Kennedy
3.0 Hogan
2.9 Taberner, C Cameron Stringer Papley
2.8 Fritsch
So Fritsch sunk to 14th in the AFL on average per game in 2021 when you add goals + goal assists. It also puts McKay’s season into a bit clearer perspective. Very respectable, but hardly earth shattering is it? Especially when you consider almost all those other players will be leading Fritsch for possessions. And Fritsch is playing in the best team in the competition.
Fritsch was also 12th of that group for average score involvements and McKay was 8th. In 2021, they were players who were on the end of scoring opportunities but much less involved in other scores. It is indicative of the reasons they are not rated elite.
________________________________________
Anyway, all this does is explain why a player like Fritsch isn’t as unsurpassable as you and others seem to think. The thread is about Cam Rayner, and there is a lot to play out before he can be fairly judged as a footballer. Not many players have big years off ACL injuries so we will likely be waiting until next year to see how good he actually is.
You didn't answer any of my questions....Bailey Fritsch is not an elite AFL footballer, which I think is normally defined as being in the top 10% in your role. However it is worked out, here is Champion Data’s list of elite players in the AFL after 2021.
Brownlow winner misses out; love for trade bait: Shocks galore as AFL’s 2022 elite revealed
Brownlow winner misses out; love for trade bait: Shocks galore as AFL’s 2022 elite revealed
Fyi McKay is also not considered elite. You are making the mistake of looking at the Coleman Medal standings and thinking that equates to a list from top to bottom of the best AFL forwards. It doesn’t.
Why goal assists are important is because when you add a players goals + goal assists together you get a lot better indication of their scoreboard impact, than just going by goals alone.
And Fritsch was 7th on goals per game average, not 5th as you claim:
View attachment 1372172Goals + Goal Assists I make:
3.5 Walker
3.4 Franklin, T Greene
3.3 McKay, Hawkins
3.2 J Cameron
3.1 Riewoldt Kennedy
3.0 Hogan
2.9 Taberner, C Cameron Stringer Papley
2.8 Fritsch
So Fritsch sunk to 14th in the AFL on average per game in 2021 when you add goals + goal assists. It also puts McKay’s season into a bit clearer perspective. Very respectable, but hardly earth shattering is it? Especially when you consider almost all those other players will be leading Fritsch for possessions. And Fritsch is playing in the best team in the competition.
Fritsch was also 12th of that group for average score involvements and McKay was 8th. In 2021, they were players who were on the end of scoring opportunities but much less involved in other scores. It is indicative of the reasons they are not rated elite.
________________________________________
Anyway, all this does is explain why a player like Fritsch isn’t as unsurpassable as you and others seem to think. The thread is about Cam Rayner, and there is a lot to play out before he can be fairly judged as a footballer. Not many players have big years off ACL injuries so we will likely be waiting until next year to see how good he actually is.
What mojo? He's always been shite.
