Cameron Ling doesn't rate Voss

[Roylion]

Oh so it was only 2 All Australians plus Mal Micheal - Brad Scott - Boyd - a list of only 50 to pick the eyes out of and an enhanced salary cap.

A list of 50? Try 44.

Which were the same conditions afforded to any club that entered into a merger in 1996. The Melbourne Hawks proposed merger conditions were even more generous than what the Brisbane Bears-Fitzroy merger got.

They were:

• $6 million incentive money
• Expanded list of 44 players (same as the Brisbane Lions). The AFL's offer was 50.
  
• $300,000 extra to the Melbourne Hawks’ salary cap (which was what the Brisbane Lions received)
  
• Open slather on both lists – with the only restriction being the expanded salary cap. (Brisbane could take 8 players)
  
• Full participation in pre-draft trading (not afforded to Brisbane) and the draft itself.
• Father-son selections from both Melbourne AND Hawthorn - clubs that had been in the competition since 1925. If the merger had gone ahead, the Melbourne Hawks would have picked up at least six father sons. Brisbane Lions have had two.

All ratified by the AFL on 24th August 1996.

And what are you complaining about anyway? Your club endorsed the merger conditions. Your club even made a merger offer to Fitzroy in 1996 seeking to claim those very same merger conditions for your own club. In the end when your extremely 'generous' merger offer was knocked back, Collingwood and Richmond led the charge to water down the above conditons for the Brisbane - Fitzroy merger.

Now that i think of it, it's amazing you guys actually won a game with so many disadvantages.

Oh there were plenty of disadvantages. The way the Brisbane Bears was set up with cast-offs from other clubs, location in a frontier state, no more than 10% of the list from Queensland, limited media coverage and exposure just to name a few.

Direct or indirect, if it wasn't for the merger you don't get those players, you can dice it anyway you like.

Of course without the merger the Brisbane Bears wouldn't have got those players. Neither would other clubs have picked up the likes of Primus, Pike (premiership at North Melbourne), Paxman, Dent and Warfe all of whom went on to have significant careers at their new club.

For example

Brisbane: (8) Brad Boyd (retired 1999), John Barker (to Hawthorn), Simon Hawking (to Sydney), Nick Carter (to Melbourne), Scott Bamford (to Geelong), Shane Clayton (delisted), Chris Johnson, Jarrod Molloy (to Collingwood),
Richmond: (3) Jason Baldwin, Brent Frewen, Matthew Manfield
Collingwood: (2) Brad Cassidy, Marty Warry,
North Melbourne: (3) Brett Chandler, Anthony Mellington, Martin Pike,
St Kilda: (1) Brett Cook,
Hawthorn: (2) Nigel Credlin, Robert McMahon,
West Coast: (1) Trent Cummings,
Western Bulldogs: (1) Matthew Dent
Port Adelaide: (4) Danny Morton, Stephen Paxman, Matthew Primus, John Rombotis
Sydney: (1) Rowan Warfe

 

[Snake_Baker]

It's the truth.

Voss was a better captain for most of their careers but Buckley was the superior player.

This is far too close to call, much less utilise words like "superior"

 

[Frank Gallagher]

A list of 50? Try 44.

Which were the same conditions afforded to any club that entered into a merger in 1996. The Melbourne Hawks proposed merger conditions were even more generous than what the Brisbane Bears-Fitzroy merger got.

They were:

• $6 million incentive money
• Expanded list of 44 players (same as the Brisbane Lions). The AFL's offer was 50.
  
• $300,000 extra to the Melbourne Hawks’ salary cap (which was what the Brisbane Lions received)
  
• Open slather on both lists – with the only restriction being the expanded salary cap. (Brisbane could take 8 players)
  
• Full participation in pre-draft trading (not afforded to Brisbane) and the draft itself.
• Father-son selections from both Melbourne AND Hawthorn - clubs that had been in the competition since 1925. If the merger had gone ahead, the Melbourne Hawks would have picked up at least six father sons. Brisbane Lions have had two.

All ratified by the AFL on 24th August 1996.

And what are you complaining about anyway? Your club endorsed the merger conditions. Your club even made a merger offer to Fitzroy in 1996 seeking to claim those very same merger conditions for your own club. In the end when your extremely 'generous' merger offer was knocked back, Collingwood and Richmond led the charge to water down the above conditons for the Brisbane - Fitzroy merger.



Oh there were plenty of disadvantages. The way the Brisbane Bears was set up with cast-offs from other clubs, location in a frontier state, no more than 10% of the list from Queensland, limited media coverage and exposure just to name a few.



Of course without the merger the Brisbane Bears wouldn't have got those players. Neither would other clubs have picked up the likes of Primus, Pike (premiership at North Melbourne), Paxman, Dent and Warfe all of whom went on to have significant careers at their new club.

For example

Brisbane: (8) Brad Boyd (retired 1999), John Barker (to Hawthorn), Simon Hawking (to Sydney), Nick Carter (to Melbourne), Scott Bamford (to Geelong), Shane Clayton (delisted), Chris Johnson, Jarrod Molloy (to Collingwood),
Richmond: (3) Jason Baldwin, Brent Frewen, Matthew Manfield
Collingwood: (2) Brad Cassidy, Marty Warry,
North Melbourne: (3) Brett Chandler, Anthony Mellington, Martin Pike,
St Kilda: (1) Brett Cook,
Hawthorn: (2) Nigel Credlin, Robert McMahon,
West Coast: (1) Trent Cummings,
Western Bulldogs: (1) Matthew Dent
Port Adelaide: (4) Danny Morton, Stephen Paxman, Matthew Primus, John Rombotis
Sydney: (1) Rowan Warfe

Thanks for the essay, but simply admitting your clubs only premierships came as a direct result of the merger and they probably shouldn't be acknowledged as legitimate would've sufficed.

 

[Snake_Baker]

I'll admit to always finding Voss a tiny, tiny, tiny touch overrated... I never had him alongside Buckley and Hird personally.

I struggle to see how Hird even qualifies as a career midfielder.

Voss beats Hird for disposals, tackles, clearances, contested possessions, uncontested possessions, bounces and ties with him for one percenters.

Hird has Voss done for more marks, contested marks and goals, but that only seems natural as he wasn't a midfielder.

 

[Bunk Moreland]

I struggle to see how Hird even qualifies as a career midfielder.

Voss beats Hird for disposals, tackles, clearances, contested possessions, uncontested possessions, bounces and ties with him for one percenters.

Hird has Voss done for more marks, contested marks and goals, but that only seems natural as he wasn't a midfielder.

Probably doesn't really. Played midfield properly for the last few years of his career, but that was it. Was more talking as players overall.

 

[Snake_Baker]

Probably doesn't really. Played midfield properly for the last few years of his career, but that was it. Was more talking as players overall.

Fair enough.

I remember Hird initially being spoken about as a centre half forward in the early part of his career.

He also spent time across half back and in the middle.

I rank him as a utility.

Undeniably a gun player, regardless of what followed afterwards.

 

[Bunk Moreland]

Fair enough.

I remember Hird initially being spoken about as a centre half forward in the early part of his career.

He also spent time across half back and in the middle.

I rank him as a utility.

Undeniably a gun player, regardless of what followed afterwards.

Started as a key forward, was a marking target if a little undersized.

Lloyd and Lucas got rolling a few years later and he became more of a third forward / flanker who would move up the ground. Played a lot of midfield in his twilight years. Played small and tall, very versatile.

 

[Roylion]

Thanks for the essay,

Too many facts for you to handle?

but simply admitting your clubs only premierships came as a direct result of the merger

Debatable.

and they probably shouldn't be acknowledged as legitimate would've sufficed.

They're legitimate.

The merger rules and conditions were endorsed by all the clubs, including yours as well as the Commission at the time. Not only that but the 'merger' between Fitzroy and the Bears was endorsed by 14 of the 15 clubs that voted on the issue. Even then the merger conditions were watered down from those originally agreed to by the other clubs. Including yours.

Your club also tried to take advantage of the existing merger rules by proposing to Fitzroy a one sided merger deal in 1996 that was quite rightly knocked back by the Club. Collingwood did so, purely to gain $6 million, a list of 50 players, an enhanced salary cap, unrestricted selection from both Fitzroy and Collingwood's existing lists, father son benefits and so on. Fairly hypocritical that Collingwood should have complained about the events of 1996 later when not only they voted in the affirmative for the merger but attempted to propose their own so they could get the benefits.

Hope that wasn't too long and complicated for you to understand.

 

[Frank Gallagher]

Too many facts for you to handle?



Debatable.



They're legitimate.

The merger rules and conditions were endorsed by all the clubs, including yours as well as the Commission at the time. Not only that but the 'merger' between Fitzroy and the Bears was endorsed by 14 of the 15 clubs that voted on the issue. Even then the merger conditions were watered down from those originally agreed to by the other clubs. Including yours.

Your club also tried to take advantage of the existing merger rules by proposing to Fitzroy a one sided merger deal in 1996 that was quite rightly knocked back by the Club. Collingwood did so, purely to gain $6 million, a list of 50 players, an enhanced salary cap, unrestricted selection from both Fitzroy and Collingwood's existing lists, father son benefits and so on. Fairly hypocritical that Collingwood should have complained about the events of 1996 later when not only they voted in the affirmative for the merger but attempted to propose their own so they could get the benefits.

Hope that wasn't too long and complicated for you to understand.

Not debatable at all.


About as legitimate as the ones GWS are about to win, it's why your 3peat will never be talked about in the same light as Hawthorns.

***************************

 

[Roylion]

About as legitimate as the ones GWS are about to win, it's why your 3peat will never be talked about in the same light as Hawthorns

Oh I think it will. Considering the inherent disadvantages of a club being located in a football frontier state, set up originally under adverse conditions, dealing with the go-home factor with 90% of its' list, lack of media exposure and investment and sponsorship the Brisbane Bears / Lions have done reasonably well. It took fifteen years of competition in the VFL-AFL for the club to win its first premiership, compared with West Coast's five years, Adelaide's six years and Port Adelaide's eight years.

West Coast have won 3 premierships in 30 years, the same as Brisbane, while Adelaide have won two premierships in 25 years.

 

[Frank Gallagher]

Oh I think it will. Considering the inherent disadvantages of a club being located in a football frontier state, set up originally under adverse conditions, dealing with the go-home factor with 90% of its' list, lack of media exposure and investment and sponsorship the Brisbane Bears / Lions have done reasonably well. It took fifteen years of competition in the VFL-AFL for the club to win its first premiership, compared with West Coast's five years, Adelaide's six years and Port Adelaide's eight years.

West Coast have won 3 premierships in 30 years, the same as Brisbane, while Adelaide have won two premierships in 25 years.

Wont see a * next to the WC-Crows flags mate.

 

[Roylion]

Wont see a * next to the WC-Crows flags mate.

Really?

Surely you forget that West Coast had the ability to select 5 players as zone concession selections in 1988, another two players in 1989 and again in 1990 and one player in 1991. Some of those zone selections included Glen Jakovich, Mitchell White, Jason Ball, Don Pyke, Peter Sumich, Craig Turley and Scott Watters. They win a premiership in five years.

Adelaide were able to list 8 players from the SANFL prior to the 1992 season as priority picks. They win a premiership in six years.

Yet Brisbane merge and somehow there's a so-called * against their premierships and none against the West Coast's or Adelaide's.

West Coast and Adelaide certainly received more generous set-up concessions than the Bears ever did.

 

[Frank Gallagher]

Really?

Surely you forget that West Coast had the ability to select 5 players as zone concession selections in 1988, another two players in 1989 and again in 1990 and one player in 1991. Some of those zone selections included Glen Jakovich, Mitchell White, Jason Ball, Don Pyke, Peter Sumich, Craig Turley and Scott Watters. They win a premiership in five years.

Adelaide were able to list 8 players from the SANFL prior to the 1992 season as priority picks. They win a premiership in six years.

Yet Brisbane merge and somehow there's a so-called * against their premierships and none against the West Coast's or Adelaide's.

West Coast and Adelaide certainly received more generous set-up concessions than the Bears ever did.

You were given similar concessions when you became the Bears.

 

[Roylion]

You were given similar concessions when you became the Bears.

Rubbish. Zone concessions from the QAFL?

The top eight VFL-AFL clubs had to give the Bears two players and the bottom four had to give the Bears one player. Carlton gave one player from its 1986 list that had moved overseas and another had suffered a career-ending injury. Rod McPherson for example badly injured his ACL during a reserves final in 1986 and was given by Footscray as part of their allocation to the Brisbane Bears for the 1987 season. Generous of them. Played 7 games for the Bears and then promptly retired.

North gave 27 year old Peter Smith who had played 36 games in five years.

Melbourne gave up the likes of Darryl Cox who had played 13 games in three seasons incuding two in 1986.

To get extra players the Bears had either:

1) to recruit players from the QAFL like Tony Beckett who played 5 senior games for the Bears or.......

2) to pay transfer fees to uncontracted players. Geoff Raines was cleared for $80,000, Mark Williams for $110,000, Roger Merrett for $60,000, Warwick Capper for $420,000, Brad Hardie for $270,000. Amongst others. Very significant money at that point in time.

In all the Bears - in 1987 alone - paid $1.3 million for reasonable players to add to their, (in Ross Oakley's words) 'rejects' and 'old hacks', on top of their $4 million licence fee. Ross Oakley said the Brisbane Bears were set up under a 'rotten deal' and that the West Coast Eagles who made the finals in their second year were virtually a 'state team'.

or....

3) to draft players in the 1986 National Draft draft. Brisbane received five selections in the draft. Picks #1, 14, 27, 40, and 53. In addition, the established Victorian clubs maintained sole recruitment options on players from the relevant Metropolitan and, for the final time, Country Zones. This meant that even before the draft had started, the most sought-after footballers from Victoria were already signed, and therefore unavailable for selection in the draft. Even if drafted, players were aligned to their drafted club for three years, but could choose to remain playing for their current club outside of the VFL. A prime example was the Bears' 1997 number one draft pick Martin Leslie. Leslie played with Port Adelaide in 1987 and 1988. Only then did he move to Brisbane for the 1989 season making his debut as a 26-year-old.

 

[WeAreGeelong]

If we are talking post 2000, i.e., 2000 - 2017 Voss arguably should miss out. As great a player he was, Voss' best was arguably 2003 and before.

I tried pointing that out earlier in the thread, but nobody seems to care. It's the "let's bag the crap out of that useless, tagging, no hoping, ranga, fence sitter ugly, goose, less intelligence than a 3 year old" thread now.

Not many want to actually discuss the topic at hand, which even then is really quite pointless as it's just his opinion. Really, why would anyone even care if he doesn't rate Voss (which incidentally is not what he said, but hey let's put that in the title of the thread anyway). How dare he have an opinion that's different to mine - righto, lets jump on BigFooty and bag the ugly ranga - BigFooty 101.

 

[Snake_Baker]

I tried pointing that out earlier in the thread, but nobody seems to care. It's the "let's bag the crap out of that useless, tagging, no hoping, ranga, fence sitter ugly, goose, less intelligence than a 3 year old" thread now.

Not many want to actually discuss the topic at hand, which even then is really quite pointless as it's just his opinion. Really, why would anyone even care if he doesn't rate Voss (which incidentally is not what he said, but hey let's put that in the title of the thread anyway). How dare he have an opinion that's different to mine - righto, lets jump on BigFooty and bag the ugly ranga - BigFooty 101.

I'm sure that Lingy is crying all the way to the bank.

 

[Frank Gallagher]

Rubbish. Zone concessions from the QAFL?

The top eight VFL-AFL clubs had to give the Bears two players and the bottom four had to give the Bears one player. Carlton gave one player from its 1986 list that had moved overseas and another had suffered a career-ending injury. Rod McPherson for example badly injured his ACL during a reserves final in 1986 and was given by Footscray as part of their allocation to the Brisbane Bears for the 1987 season. Generous of them. Played 7 games for the Bears and then promptly retired.

North gave 27 year old Peter Smith who had played 36 games in five years.

Melbourne gave up the likes of Darryl Cox who had played 13 games in three seasons incuding two in 1986.

To get extra players the Bears had either:

1) to recruit players from the QAFL like Tony Beckett who played 5 senior games for the Bears or

2) to pay transfer fees to uncontracted players. Geoff Raines was cleared for $80,000, Mark Williams for $110,000, Roger Merrett for $60,000, Warwick Capper for $420,000, Brad Hardie for $270,000. Amongst others. Very significant money at that point in time.

In all the Bears - in 1987 alone - paid $1.3 million for reasonable players to add to their, (in Ross Oakley's words) 'rejects' and 'old hacks', on top of their $4 million licence fee. Ross Oakley said the Brisbane Bears were set up under a 'rotten deal' and that the West Coast Eagles who made the finals in their second year were virtually a 'state team'.

3) to draft players in the 1986 National Draft draft. Brisbane received five selections in the draft. Picks #1, 14, 27, 40, and 53. In addition, the established Victorian clubs maintained sole recruitment options on players from the relevant Metropolitan and, for the final time, Country Zones. This meant that even before the draft had started, the most sought-after footballers from Victoria were already signed, and therefore unavailable for selection in the draft. Even if drafted, players were aligned to their drafted club for three years, but could choose to remain playing for their current club outside of the VFL. A prime example was the Bears' number one draft pick Martin Leslie. Leslie played with Port Adelaide in 1987 and 1988. Only then did he move to Brisbane for the 1989 season making his debut as a 26-year-old.

You made a prelim in 96 and then got to pick the eyes out of the Fitzroy carcass in 97, how the hell couldn't you dominate the comp once that group gelled.

 

[Roylion]

You made a prelim in 96 and then got to pick the eyes out of the Fitzroy carcass in 97, how the hell couldn't you dominate the comp once that group gelled.

So the Bears weren't given similar concessions to Adelaide and the West Coast, when they were set up. In fact what the Bears received was far inferior.

So I'll ask again. Brisbane merge and somehow there's a so-called * against their premierships, yet no '*' against West Coast's or Adelaide's premierships, despite the fact they won their premierships in a third of the time it took the Bears/Lions to win their first courtesy of more generous concessions. Adelaide won back to back premierships. How do you come to that conclusion?

And pick the eyes out? Brisbane were able to select eight players from 37 of Fitzroy's list that played senior games in 1996. 21%. The two best players in Fitzroy's 1996 Best and Fairest in Pike and Primus didn't even go to Brisbane in 1997. North selected three players (including the reigning Best and Fairest and Fitzroy's best 1996 goalkicker), Port Adelaide got Primus and two other players, Richmond three, Hawthorn and Collingwood two, Sydney, West Coast, St Kilda and Western Bulldogs one player.

 

[Frank Gallagher]

So the Bears weren't given similar concessions to Adelaide and the West Coast, when they were set up. In fact what the Bears received was far inferior.

So I'll ask again. Brisbane merge and somehow there's a so-called * against their premierships, yet no '*' against West Coast's or Adelaide's premierships, despite the fact they won their premierships in a third of the time it took the Bears/Lions to win their first courtesy of more generous concessions. Adelaide won back to back premierships. How do you come to that conclusion?

And pick the eyes out? Brisbane were able to select eight players from 37 of Fitzroy's list that played senior games in 1996. 21%. The two best players in Fitzroy's 1996 Best and Fairest in Pike and Primus didn't even go to Brisbane in 1997. North selected three players (including the reigning Best and Fairest and Fitzroy's best 1996 goalkicker), Port Adelaide got Primus and two other players, Richmond three, Hawthorn and Collingwood two, Sydney, West Coast, St Kilda and Western Bulldogs one player.

I can add an * to WC and the Crows if you like.

 

[Fadge]

If we are talking post 2000, i.e., 2000 - 2017 Voss arguably should miss out. As great a player he was, Voss' best was arguably 2003 and before.

At last, someone gets it!

 

[Dadda Dave]

Didn't make his top 10 midfielders since 2000. Is he right?

In that time he was three time premiership captain, 3 time best and fairest, 3 time All-Australian, 2 time league MVP and 4 time AFLPA best captain.

I think I might be biased but I felt Vossy was in his prime during that time. Ling seems to feel he peaked prior to that.

Am I ******ed or is he?

Lingy saved the last spot for himself ..

 

[Fadge]

You made a prelim in 96 and then got to pick the eyes out of the Fitzroy carcass in 97, how the hell couldn't you dominate the comp once that group gelled.

Fair to say that three consecutive premierships soon thereafter could reasonably be regarded as 'dominating the comp'...

 

[Frank Gallagher]

Fair to say that three consecutive premierships soon thereafter could reasonably be regarded as 'dominating the comp'...

Exactly, from that point it wasn't a matter of if, it was when.

 

[OneGreatClub]

Voss doesn't rate Lingy either (nor do I)

 

[Roylion]

I can add an * to WC and the Crows if you like.

Do as you please. It's not as if I particularly value your judgement on the matter in any case. Your lack of knowledge is apparent. Claiming that Pike was picked up via the 'merger', stating that Brisbane had 50 players on their list post-merger or that the Bears had the same start-up concessions as the Eagles (they didn't) doesn't particularly fill me with confidence that you actually know much of what you're talking about.