Can a side ever go undefeated ?? Is it possible ?

[Dan26]

In 1929, Collingwood went 18-0 throughout the home and away season. They proved, after the home and away season had transpired that they were far and away the best team. They then proceeded to lose to Richmond by 10 goals in their first final, before beating the Tigers in the Grand Final. Overall, they went 19-1.

This has been the closest A TEAM HAS EVER BEEN TO BEING UNDEFEATED. In 1950, Essendon went 17-1 in the home and away, and won both their finals, to also finish 19-1.

And of course in recent history, Carlton in 1995 went 20-2 and then proceeded to win their three finals to overall be 23-2.

What made Carlton effort even more remarkable is that they wetn 15-0 against the eventual finalists, only losing to Sydney and St.Kilda.

Now obvioulosy Carlton in 1995 was easily capable of beating both Sydney and St.Kilda, and possibly only a lack of concentration prevented them from doing so.

It begs the question, can any side go undefeated ?

Highly unlikely, but you can get odds of 25-1 on the Bombers right now. Long odds, I know, but it might be worth a bet. Essendons most difficult match (on paper at least) is against Brisbane at the Gabba in Round 8. An injury and suspension ravaged Brisbane, no less. No West Coast in Perth, or Adelaide in Adelaide.

The Bombers will probably come unstuck against a Geelong or Melbourne, or someone like that in a minor upset. Although I have heard a few things by Sheedy and a few players and they are not even concerned about finals. They are just worried about setting the best possible home and away record that they can. They will deal with finals when they arrive.

They are motivated, passionate, talented and hungry. An enviable mix, and a mix capable of equalling Carlton record in 1995 of 20-2. Unlikely I know, but I am simply proposing the POSSIBILITY. One of these years a team will go undefeated. When ??

 

[Bloodstained Angel]

An interesting question D24

The Essendon of this year look pretty good and may even go close to doing a "Carlton95"
But you are probably right - there will be an upset or two along the way.

I think at the moment Geelong, Roos and maybe Melbourne look the most likely candidates to upset the Bomber apple-cart but how about this scenario :

Its quite possible that Essendon could go un-defeated in the H&A season and then promptly lose both finals and go out.

Its a very remote possibility - but a possibility none the less anbd given the Bombers recent finals record - well, who knows ? ;-)

 

[Shinboners]

I have no questions about the depth and strength of the Essendon squad. I cannot recall in the past 20 years where even the question, "Can they go through undefeated" has been posed. So even asking this shows how people feel about the quality of the Essendon squad.

But could the team, and remember that Essendon do have a large number of young players in the team, handle the mental pressure and expectation, not only from themselves, but from their army of fans? The longer the run goes on, the more they have to lose. Add to that the pressure of making up for last season and they could crack. Last season, one of the biggest emotions surrounding North's celebrations was relief as having made up for '98.

The Carlton '95 team had a very high number of older and experienced players....Silvagni, Madden, Kernahan, Williams, Bradley, Sexton, Dean, etc. etc. that could guide the handful of youngsters they had. Essendon 2000 is a young team. During Carlton's run, the question was asked, "Can we keep the streak going? Which game are we going to lose?". Apparantly Greg Williams replied to this question by saying, "Why do we have to lose?" and with that comment the streak was taken to their Grand Final win. The thing I'm asking is....does Essendon have equivalents of a Kernahan, Bradley, Silvagni and co to guide them through an undefeated season?

 

[Lenny]

I would love them to go undefeated through the home and away season, and be minor premiers again, and then choke again.

It would be so good.

Fool you for asking for this reply, in posting your stupid question.

The only thing that matters is PLAYING AT YOUR BEST IN THE FINALS, WHEN THE REAL PRESSURE IS APPLIED.

 

[RICE80]

There is no doubt it is possible and they have come through the difficult post Ansett Cup period without a hitch.

I don't agree with you about the odds though Dan. The original odds of 150/1 were good (Damn I wish I got on then), but 25/1 is too short for an almost impossible task. Undefeated would have to mean finals as well surely.

That would be something "speecciaall" as Brucey would say, that would almost erase last years disaster. I think it would put them in ellite company of Richmond late 60's, Bombers mid 80's and Hawks of late 80's.

You're right Shinboner I've never heard it even talked about before, unbelievable isn't it, maybe Sheeds is right with his conspiracy theories.

BOMBER BLITZ IN 2000!

 

[Bagger]

You can always rely on Looney (sorry Lenny)
not to dissapoint. What a moron!!
I don't give a sh-t how many we lose I just want the big one. PS change the record Looney

 

[Joel]

I think that Essendon is going to lose a few this year. However I do agree that the team is very good. Look for a good showing by Collingwood this week. Hehe, people are already writing them off again after losing to the Roos.

 

[Arch]

who gives a stuff how many games we win. id be happy with a 12-10 record so long as we dont f*ck up in the finals. The pressure is really going to be on us, if we continue to dominate like we are. I actually think a loss or two would be beneficial around now- but not to the magpies. I wanna watch the footy show on thursday, and I wont be, if we lose to those morons.

A.

 

[Dan26]

Arch,

As an Essendon supporer, I certainly DON'T want to go 12-10.......even if it means winning the Grand Final. Why can't the club do BOTH, firstly winning top spot, THEN winning the finals ?????

I have heard Sheedy say they are only concentrating on the part of the season that they are in.

For example, in the Ansett Cup they were aiming soley on winning the Ansett Cup. Currently, we are in the middle of the Home and Away season, and Sheedy has said that we are going to attempt to win that too.

Now IF the Home and away season has been won (McClelland trophy for finishing top), THEN we can aim to win the finals series, but there is no point worrying about that now. We can't worry about that until the finals begin in August.

I know I am going over old ground, but the team that finishes on top of the ladder (whoever it happens to be) is the BEST team of the year, regardless of what happens in the finals. Do you honestly think Aston Villa will claim to be Englands best team if they win the FA Cup final against Chelsea in a couple of weeks. Of course not. ManU are, and everone knows it due to their 10 point gap at the head of the table in the championship. The FA Cup is the last game of the season by the way (sinmilar to our Grand Final.

To SHINBONERS,

I don't think the pressure of winning 20 or more games will affect a team like Essendon. The fear of failure is a powerful tool, and one in which Essendon didn't have last year. They didn't believe they were going to lose to Carlton. It didn't even cross theor mind, and look what happened.

In 1993, Essendon led Carlton by 36 points at half time in The Grand Final. The captain "Bomber" Thompson, said something along the lines of, "last week against Adelaide we were 42 points down and we won. We can still lose this games fellas"

Essendon poroceeded to outscore Carlton in the second half, and didn't look like giving up their lead,

By racking up win after win, after win, a team (any team) can only grow in confidence. I remember when Carlton beat us in Round 22 1995 to finish at 20-2 I was thinking, "This is the worst possible result, because now that Carlton are 20-2, they will feel as though they HAVE to win the Grand Final". Of course they went on to win the GF easily.

If a team finishes 12-10, they often have the mentality, "It doesn't mater if we don't win the Grnad Final. No one expects a 12-10 team to win the GF anyway"

If Essendon, theoretically were to go 22-0 (I don't think they will by the way), sure there will be pressure, but no different to that which Carlton experienced in 1995. There won't be any over-confidence I can assure you (just remember 1999). Pressure caused by a fear of failure is a strong motivator, and it hepled Essendon overcome a 42 point point deficit in the 1993 preliminary final, and allowed them to easilty beat Carlton in the 1993 Grnad Final the following week.

The Bombers also have a good mix of youing and old players (as do North Melbourne) which would help.

I disagree that 1998 was a motivating factor for North in 1999. In the Grand Final for a start, North and Carlton both had 29 scoring shots. North weren't that good. They were disappointing in my view. I was expecting more from them than a 19.10 to 12.17 victory. I mean it wasn't as if people were saying, "WOW, what an awesome perfromane by North. What a team !". No one was saying that, becasue all North did was just enough to win......against an average oponent no less.

Norths 1998 loss probably helped motivate a 17-5 home and away season (a Kangaross record), but on GF day itself, all I can say is thank god they didn't play Essendon !

 

[Dan26]

LENNY,

Finals pressure has proved to be a bit of a falicy in recent years.

There have been many, many, many home and away games where the pressure and intensity of the game was more than in a final.

I can honestly say that Essendon's qualifying final victory over Sydney last year was probably Essendon's least or second least intense game of the year. It was lacklustre. And it was a final. The Kangaroos probably played in a dozen games last year that were more intense than the Grand Final. Grand Finals, and finals generally are all hype. They very rarely live up to it.

Some finals have great intensity and pressure, sure, but so do a lot of home and away games. Most finals don't.

When a team does pre-season training, they are doing it for the 6 month season that lies ahead of them. In effect they are training for the home and away. They are training to be fit enough, and to be able to come up week in week out against quality opposition.

When the finals come about, they are won on the day, and often they are won by a team that only performs well in that match, while the team that performs well over 6 months may lose ONE match and not get recognised.

This is most unfair. It has happened the last 4 years.

I've said this too often and way too many times, but it can't be said often enough. Why not recognise BOTH the hme and away premier (for the hardest and mostt difficult acheivement in foobnall........finishing above all others over 22 weeks), and THEN award the final series premiership to the team that wins a knockout 8 team finals series tournament.

That will keep you happy Lenny. The finals will still be there for you, but they would be better. Real pressure, because they would be completely knockout, with no second chances. One loss and you are out (as it should be) Because you like the pressure of finals so much, you would like this. I've been proposing it for years myself.

It wouldn't matter so much, if 1st loses to 8th and were elimianted, because they still would have been recognised as being the Home and Away" premier.

They would be very disappointed to not win the Grand Final IN ADDITION to top spot(a.k.a doing the double), but the season would still be recognised for that team due to their top spot premiership. (whoever it happens to be)

Suffice to say, no one is guaranteed to win the Grand Final match-up itself, but how relevant is it to how good you are anyway ? I'ts just one match.

If West Costs season was judged on their 81 point loss to Geelong, we'd be saying they were crap. West Coast didn't choke, they just had a bad day, and it can happen in football. No one is immune, which is why top spot deserves more recognition AND the finals still being something to win and to aspire to in their own right (in addition to finishing on top)

Then everyone would be happy !

 

[Arch]

yeah good point as usual there dan. Im not saying i WANT to go 12-10, but really do you care what our record is if we win a GF ???? Will it be of any consolation at all, to hold aloft the mccleland trophy, if we'e watching the GF from the sidelines ????? nope.

but RE man u- man united suck, and the premier league sucks becaus they have no salary cap or draft. Man united is not the best team. theyre the richest. and thats why they win. Ive got no respect to some wealthy power house which can pay more for players than any other team can, and hence assemble the best team money can buy, and win year after year .Boring, stupid, pointless and a rip off for soccer fans.
my opinion.

have a good easter y'all.
catchyez later.

 

[The Dutchman!]

As impressive as the team is and as gratifying it is to see them bounce back and for Hird and Lucas to be big parts of it...

It's only round 7 guys. Get a grip.

Dutch

PS. There was loads of talk around Carlton in 95 (till they lost) and around WCE in 91 til they lost. Short memories folks....

PPS. Man U looked pretty ordinary last night Dan. Though Beck's goal was "speeecccciialll"

PPPS. Here's a tip. I'm a gunners fan but I would have to say that the most impressive team this season has been Liverpool - they've outscored Man U on points since about game 7 - (prior to that they lost to Watford at home !) and done it without Owen and Fowler for most of the year... reckon they will be very hard to beat next year (get on now)

 

[Dan26]

Dutch,

I'm an Arsenal fan as well.

I thought it was terrific two years ago, when the Gunners won 10 or 11 on end to win the title from ManU.

But you're right Arch. In Soccer, all you have to be is the richest, and you will win. It makes competition boring. Look at Rangers in Scotland. They have won something like 45 championships, including 10 of the past 11.

FIFA should introduce a salary cap.

But Arch, about your point, when you say would it be any consolation to hold the McClelland trophy if you fail to win the Grand Final. You say nope.

That's the problem.

If ManU FAIL to win the FA Cup, it is still a great consolation to win the championship by finishing top.

Unfortunately you are right. It is no consolation in Aussie Rules.

Therefore, we need to do something. Hence, the AFL should give top spot more recognition so that we DO care.

That's been my point for many, many, many months now. Not so much how it IS, but rather how it SHOULD be.

 

[Eagle_Fan]

I'm for Aresnal too. Don't know much about them, but it sh!ts my Man U devoted brother!

I don't think Essendon will go 22-0, but I can't see who will beat them. Maybe Freo? (don't laugh). They have given Essendon their closest call all season, really only kicking themselves out of it. Have you played North yet? (my memorys gone) And we usually have a pretty good battle, except for those blowouts last season.

Anyway good luck this week. I think Collingwoods bubble has now burst. But could you please PUT THEM AWAY? It's so frustrating watching Essendon at the moment...

 

[Joel]

Bah!

 

[rewind]

Where can you get them at 25/1???

 

[The Ball]

Dan24,
the thing about soccer is that if FIFA or the any of the domestic soccer federations produced a salary cap, then players would just go to other countries that paid them more. This would inturn affect domestic competions level of playing quality. Or the players would just go to court saying that a salary cap infringes on their right to negotiate contracts.

On another note it is easier to produce a salary cap for a sport that played at an elite level in one country, such as AFL or NFL in the states, than a sport that is played world-wide.

 

[staggy]

I, as a loyal essendon supporter....would not like to see them go through the season undefeated because it would raise the pressure to succeed in the finals to an almost unbearable level. Of course, there is no reason why the side couldn't but the odds say they probably won't.

While a team such as essendon certainly has the ability to win the flag....they also have to WANT to win it. Anyone who has ever played footy will know that you are more hungry for a win after a loss than after another win. To shoot for the highs...you must first experience the lows so you know what it will be like if you will lose. And that's why i wouldn't like to see them go undefeated....they may not have the hunger.

The other reason why i wouldn't like to see them go undefeated would be that there would be no incentive to improve. While they are 6-0 this year, i have seen every melbourne game and i can honestly say that i have only seen them play to their potential once..... in the last qtr against the bulldogs. Other than that...they have been just doing enough to win, not to win well. Many times i have seen them play this year and have thought "if we were playing nth or brisbane we would have got beaten today". Overall, this year they haven't even got near their potential yet.

This is why i wouldn't mind them losing one....so they can look at their mistakes, learn from them, and improve. Without a loss they have no incentive to improve...and may be found wanting against a hungry, switched on team like north of brisbane in the finals.

So here's to a 18-4 year and a premiership for the bombers.

chees
staggy




------------------
2000: year of the bomber

 

[Arch]

ball,
good point regarding salary caps in soccer. id never thought of that. But they oughta do something over there. I dont know how soccer fans, for all their passion and pride (and bloody violence) you'd think they wouldnt stand for a dud competition.
I notice in the news that Man U has broken the transfer record by siging some player for like 50 mil pounds or something.
Perhaps if bill gates were a soccer fan, he could buy a few premierships for the lower sides.?

 

[cc]

Possible not probable.

 

[madswan]

Another Gunner fan,
maybe against sydney in rd14

surely they gotta lose ONE along the way....

I think the worst thing that could happen to the bombers is entering the finals without a loss.........! You all know what i mean!!!

How about GO Collingwood ANZAC day.....

Anyway
lets just hope the best team wins.....

sydney are killing me

 

[Dan26]

Staggy,

I'm glad you're not coaching th Bombers.

I can just imagine your pre-match address to the players if we were say, 15-0 coming into Round 16

"OK Fellas, I want you all to play bad out there. I think we need a loss, so I want you all to deliberately NOT try your hardest. Then we will be more fired up next week"

What a load of rubbish, Staggy. No Offence, but you are wrong.

Motivation comes from within. If Essendon enter the finals at 22-0, they all know (as do we), that what happened in the previous 22 weeks doesn't matter. It's your NEXT match that matters.

I mean, if two players are running for the ball, and are about to pick it up, I doubt very much, whether the result of the previous weeks match is going to impact on the players going for the ball at that instannt.

I can tell you I HATE losing. A loss is NEVER a good thing. If you think losing fires you up, then just tell the players to PRETEND they lost last week. That should fire them up.

I'll give you an example why winning is ALWAYS good, and losing is ALWAYS bad. The 1995 season, in particular......Carlton. Everyone was saying, "Gee, a loss will be GOOD for Carlton". Well, Carlton thought otherwise and continued to kick everyone's ass on the way to 16 consecutive victories.

Carltons motivation came from WANTING TO KEEP WINNING.

Losing creates self doubt. Take a leaf out of Carlton in 1995.

Imagine Essendon's motivation if they were, hypothetically 15-0. The motivation to continue undefeated would be HUGE. Every game would be a huge motivation, becasue the side would want to continue unbeaten, in much the same way Carlton motivated themselves on the way to winning their last 16 games of 1995.

I am motivated as a supporter, becasue I want to see Essendon kick everyone's ass. I reckon this season the players are motivated in much the same way. I don't want see them lose just so they can "Fire-up" next week. West Caost has been doing that all season thus-far and it hasn't got them anywhere.

Given the choice betwen going 22-0 and 18-4, I'd rather go 22-0. The fact that you would rather go 18-4 staggers me. It's mystifying.

Whether they are 22-0 or 18-4 should make no difference in the first week of the finals anyway. They should be motivated and fired up regardless. Trust me, come finals time, the motivation will be there REGARDLESS of the win-loss record.

Desite popular opinion, you don't HAVE to lose a match. There is no rule saying, "A team has to drop a match". It is better for the coach, supporters, players, and everyone associuated with a football club, if that club wins as many matches as possible.

Rememebr, Carlton in 1995 wrapped up top spot with about three rounds to go. They continued to win agaisnt quality opposition in the last 3 rounds despite those matches being meaningless. Their motivation came from wanting to CONTINUE to kick ass. They did so.

Please don't speak to the players. You might discourage them from winning. A loss is never a good thing. A win is ALWAYS better.... Always.

 

[clancy]

North Melbourne (VFA) 58 games without a defeat between July 1914 to September 1919.

 

[Joel]

Why don't we all sit back and wait and see what happens? Its a nice arguement but a very unpredictable one. For all you know, Essendon might lose to St.Kilda, thats what footy is like. And people forget, underdogs seem to arise to the occasion.

 

[Dan26]

Oh, I'm fully aware is Essendon may, and probably will lose.

I'm simply stating that it is better to win as many games as possible. It is NOT beneficial for a club to drop a gmae. This is a football myth. There are many footy myths, and this is one of them.

I certainly believe Essendon is capable of going undefeated, although ift would require an extreme and unlikely supply of luck.