Can Alistair Clarkson lead North to a premiership? Or has footy gone past him?

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peetoo

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He doesn’t have a magic wand, any success he has will likely take years to build, looking at 2-3 years minimum and that’s with nailing drafts and attracting quality FA’s.

It’s not like he hasn’t done it before.

2004 draft was absolutely nailed by hawthorn. They arguably got more than half the talent available. 2005 2006 not so much, could have had selwood and pendles too

Imagine that team
 

Leeda

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Geez he is going to beat up the ol' dudes and smother the young dudes with affection...he does know people..
 

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peetoo

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Geez he is going to beat up the ol' dudes and smother the young dudes with affection...he does know people..

Half the 2008 premiership team pre dated Clarko. He did send a couple of players to north for great draft picks…but he’s at north now
 

Tas

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Only if he turns it around quickly, ie Fagan-like time period. If it is a long rebuild then I doubt it. Most rebuilding coaches don't see the better days.
 

peetoo

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Only if he turns it around quickly, ie Fagan-like time period. If it is a long rebuild then I doubt it. Most rebuilding coaches don't see the better days.

Clarko 2005-2008 is better than anything Fagan hasn’t done yet
 

Freomaniac

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Clarko 2005-2008 is better than anything Fagan hasn’t done yet
The difference was Clarkson was lucky to have 2 gun mids in Mitchell and Hodge and 2 tall forwards in buddy and roughy on his front porch.

Look at the Brisbane 🦁 lions 2019-2022 side. Who's the 2 gun mids and 2 tall forwards that are similar to what Clarkson had at the Hawks?
 

peetoo

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The difference was Clarkson was lucky to have 2 gun mids in Mitchell and Hodge and 2 tall forwards in buddy and roughy on his front porch.

Look at the Brisbane 🦁 lions 2019-2022 side. Who's the 2 gun mids and 2 tall forwards that are similar to what Clarkson had at the Hawks?

Hindsight. Weren’t rated at the time. Wallace and eade said richmond and bulldogs were ‘well advanced’ of hawthorn in 2008

Fagan wasn’t totally to blame, but brisbane are a couple of years past the demographic peak imo. Ironic the finals were in qld two years ago
 

Freomaniac

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Hindsight. Weren’t rated at the time. Wallace and eade said richmond and bulldogs were ‘well advanced’ of hawthorn in 2008

Fagan wasn’t totally to blame, but brisbane are a couple of years past the demographic peak imo. Ironic the finals were in qld two years ago
Hindsight is a wonderful thing. Back in the start of 2018, Jonathan Brown said the dockers were ahead of the eagles in developing a premiership contender.

Then social media accused Jonathan Brown of having his head smashed in once too many times. LoL.

Robert Walls predicted the eagles to win the spoon in 2018.

West coast eagles won a flag in 2018.

I agree Chris Fagan isn't to Blame for this current Brisbane side falling short. The playing squad is solid but unbalanced.
 

bomberclifford

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My prediction is that 2023 will be another wooden spoon bringing in those sweet early picks, then he'll move to get them up around the 8 by 2025. From there it will be all about keeping the young talent while enticing the right free agents to bolster the playing group to get them into top 4 contention. He's got a good track record of bringing in players from other squads to take a role in his system.

If he manages to get from 3 consecutive spoons to a top four contention within five years, he'd be rightly heralded as a master coach of the modern era. History doesn't work in his favour though.

I reckon the high water mark will be around 6/7 before this contract runs out and he'll get an extension based on that.
 

The acurate one

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Interesting thread title I am sure it wouldn't have been seen as confrontational at all.

A lot of clubs have been in this caper a long time, North has four flags after joining the then premier competition in Victoria in 1925.

Will he take us all way, no one knows. I do feel he will get us best prepared to achieve that which is about all you can hope for.

He does have the fortune of having Cunnington , Phillips and Comben all back and fit, played 3 between them in 22. Also Thomas seems to have refocused as well. Corr will be much better for the run after finally getting on the park last season.

A good start I suppose you could say. I highly doubt we'll get the wooden in 23, if we do, we will again get priority picks. Making the eventual climb even easier.

I'm happy with the team we've put together off field, it's the best I can recall.
 

010203

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If he does win a flag at North, he'll usurp Mick Malthouse as the oldest premiership winning coach in VFL/AFL history.
 

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SSSSSS

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Unless he drastically changes his footballing philosophy over the last 12 months I can't see it. His ideas were stale when we parted ways. Teams like the champion Richmond team with quick ball movement are the blueprint going forward. Clarko was still stuck trying to play a more methodical style without the cattle to pull it off. Looking at North list they definitely lack that cattle.

Unless he's changed expect a lot of slow balls down the line and hopeful bombing inside 50 to nobody. Probably won't get belted as much and will grind out some wins against teams who underestimate North.

The fact he is bringing familiar faces rather than new blood has me worried that he will persist with his old outdated ideas.
 

Bunk Moreland

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It's fairly rare for a coach to win premierships at two clubs.

A large part of this is the most overlooked (and often denied) factor of great success in any field: luck.

Whether it's sport, business, anything else, you can almost invariably look at any great success stories - individuals or organisations - and trace it back to several instances of good fortune and "right place, right time".

This isn't a comment on Clarkson and Hawthorn, but on all successful types. I could point to the same sort of thing where Essendon has had success.

You can't be useless and be highly successful: you need to be good enough to grasp your opportunities when they come. But they often only come out of good fortune.

It's why the "genius" or "messiah" thing so often fails. Ultra-successful types are often no smarter and no more effective at what they do than those who have little success. The difference is so often luck and opportunity.

A hell of a lot of things had to go right for Clarkson for him to end up at Hawthorn, for them to build the squad they did, and then for them to have the success they had. A lot of them had absolutely nothing to do with Clarkson or Hawthorn.

Go back to the very start for example, when Terry Wallace rejected the gig, which opened the door for Clarkson.

Go back to the drafts and see the players Hawthorn wanted, only for them to be taken with prior picks, "forcing" them to select players who would go on to be fantastic for them.

It's just how the world works.
 

Osho

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It's fairly rare for a coach to win premierships at two clubs.

A large part of this is the most overlooked (and often denied) factor of great success in any field: luck.

Whether it's sport, business, anything else, you can almost invariably look at any great success stories - individuals or organisations - and trace it back to several instances of good fortune and "right place, right time".

This isn't a comment on Clarkson and Hawthorn, but on all successful types. I could point to the same sort of thing where Essendon has had success.

You can't be useless and be highly successful: you need to be good enough to grasp your opportunities when they come. But they often only come out of good fortune.

It's why the "genius" or "messiah" thing so often fails. Ultra-successful types are often no smarter and no more effective at what they do than those who have little success. The difference is so often luck and opportunity.

A hell of a lot of things had to go right for Clarkson for him to end up at Hawthorn, for them to build the squad they did, and then for them to have the success they had. A lot of them had absolutely nothing to do with Clarkson or Hawthorn.

Go back to the very start for example, when Terry Wallace rejected the gig, which opened the door for Clarkson.

Go back to the drafts and see the players Hawthorn wanted, only for them to be taken with prior picks, "forcing" them to select players who would go on to be fantastic for them.

It's just how the world works.
It's a very unpopular opinion amongst successful folk :)
 

the big lebowski

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Anything really great relies on an element of luck. Take Geelongs win in 2022.

  • lucky danger requested a trade home
  • Hawkins was a father/son
  • Selwood made it to pick 6 etc

Certainly clarksons success had some luck as well.

But how much was good fortune vs clarksons vision is up for debate.

Consider

4 flags spread across two distinct periods
Unlucky to not be 5
3 of the 4 flags came after losing one of the all time great key forwards

I think it was the hawks second of the 3 peat, I thought the hawks were gone that year. Clarksons himself had a medical issue and missed the middle of the year. And as I recall a whole bunch of other things went against them and they still saluted.

I think it was the following year where they lost the qualifying final in Perth, fought back and won a prelim in Perth, to go on and complete the hat trick.

That’s not luck.

Edit: plus how many of clarko apprentices have gone on to coach a flag. Again, can’t be luck.
 

PenfoldsFan

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It's fairly rare for a coach to win premierships at two clubs.

A large part of this is the most overlooked (and often denied) factor of great success in any field: luck.

Whether it's sport, business, anything else, you can almost invariably look at any great success stories - individuals or organisations - and trace it back to several instances of good fortune and "right place, right time".

This isn't a comment on Clarkson and Hawthorn, but on all successful types. I could point to the same sort of thing where Essendon has had success.

You can't be useless and be highly successful: you need to be good enough to grasp your opportunities when they come. But they often only come out of good fortune.

It's why the "genius" or "messiah" thing so often fails. Ultra-successful types are often no smarter and no more effective at what they do than those who have little success. The difference is so often luck and opportunity.

A hell of a lot of things had to go right for Clarkson for him to end up at Hawthorn, for them to build the squad they did, and then for them to have the success they had. A lot of them had absolutely nothing to do with Clarkson or Hawthorn.

Go back to the very start for example, when Terry Wallace rejected the gig, which opened the door for Clarkson.

Go back to the drafts and see the players Hawthorn wanted, only for them to be taken with prior picks, "forcing" them to select players who would go on to be fantastic for them.

It's just how the world works.
Agreed, Clarkson inherited a Premiership side in Central District from Peter Jonas and took them to back to back, or bark to bark, before failing to convert the minor Premiership the following year. That side went on to win another 7 flags under Roy Laird. The common denominator in those 9 flags was Chris and Jimmy Gowans who we're Hodge/Mitchell like on field Generals. The dogs never gave another yelp once the Gowans retired.

Clarko then joined Port who we're flag ready under achievers.

He arrived at Hawthorn at the perfect moment to reap the rewards of Hodge, Mitchell, Franklin, Roughead, Lewis etc.

That he's surrounding himself with Coaching relics from that era suggests he's of the opinion that together they made the Hawks list great whereas I believe the list, along with Centrals and Ports, made Clarko.
 

SSSSSS

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Anything really great relies on an element of luck. Take Geelongs win in 2022.

  • lucky danger requested a trade home
  • Hawkins was a father/son
  • Selwood made it to pick 6 etc

Certainly clarksons success had some luck as well.

But how much was good fortune vs clarksons vision is up for debate.

Consider

4 flags spread across two distinct periods
Unlucky to not be 5
3 of the 4 flags came after losing one of the all time great key forwards

I think it was the hawks second of the 3 peat, I thought the hawks were gone that year. Clarksons himself had a medical issue and missed the middle of the year. And as I recall a whole bunch of other things went against them and they still saluted.

I think it was the following year where they lost the qualifying final in Perth, fought back and won a prelim in Perth, to go on and complete the hat trick.

That’s not luck.

Edit: plus how many of clarko apprentices have gone on to coach a flag. Again, can’t be luck.

Clarkson had some bad luck as well.

Roughy going down with cancer while still in his peak. 2016 would have looked a lot different. I have no doubts we would have put Geelong away with Roughead. The Swans would have been a tough ordeal in the Prelim but we had their measure in 2013-2015.

Could have been a 4peat.

Ah well. More important things than footy :) Roughy beating the campaigner of a thing and in good health is a win in itself.
 

Bunk Moreland

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Agreed, Clarkson inherited a Premiership side in Central District from Peter Jonas and took them to back to back, or bark to bark, before failing to convert the minor Premiership the following year. That side went on to win another 7 flags under Roy Laird. The common denominator in those 9 flags was Chris and Jimmy Gowans who we're Hodge/Mitchell like on field Generals. The dogs never gave another yelp once the Gowans retired.

Clarko then joined Port who we're flag ready under achievers.

He arrived at Hawthorn at the perfect moment to reap the rewards of Hodge, Mitchell, Franklin, Roughead, Lewis etc.

That he's surrounding himself with Coaching relics from that era suggests he's of the opinion that together they made the Hawks list great whereas I believe the list, along with Centrals and Ports, made Clarko.

This is the thing - there’s no doubt he’s a good coach, but he didn’t win four flags purely because he’s a good coach. Fortune and accidental timing played a huge role, as it always does.
 

Bunk Moreland

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Anything really great relies on an element of luck. Take Geelongs win in 2022.

  • lucky danger requested a trade home
  • Hawkins was a father/son
  • Selwood made it to pick 6 etc

Certainly clarksons success had some luck as well.

But how much was good fortune vs clarksons vision is up for debate.

Consider

4 flags spread across two distinct periods
Unlucky to not be 5
3 of the 4 flags came after losing one of the all time great key forwards

I think it was the hawks second of the 3 peat, I thought the hawks were gone that year. Clarksons himself had a medical issue and missed the middle of the year. And as I recall a whole bunch of other things went against them and they still saluted.

I think it was the following year where they lost the qualifying final in Perth, fought back and won a prelim in Perth, to go on and complete the hat trick.

That’s not luck.

Edit: plus how many of clarko apprentices have gone on to coach a flag. Again, can’t be luck.

He’s a good coach, but that’s not solely why he won four flags.

The question here is can he win a flag at North.

A hell of a lot of things that have little (or absolutely nothing) to do with him have to go right for that to happen.
 

FlyHigh18

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It's fairly rare for a coach to win premierships at two clubs.

A large part of this is the most overlooked (and often denied) factor of great success in any field: luck.

Whether it's sport, business, anything else, you can almost invariably look at any great success stories - individuals or organisations - and trace it back to several instances of good fortune and "right place, right time".

This isn't a comment on Clarkson and Hawthorn, but on all successful types. I could point to the same sort of thing where Essendon has had success.

You can't be useless and be highly successful: you need to be good enough to grasp your opportunities when they come. But they often only come out of good fortune.

It's why the "genius" or "messiah" thing so often fails. Ultra-successful types are often no smarter and no more effective at what they do than those who have little success. The difference is so often luck and opportunity.

A hell of a lot of things had to go right for Clarkson for him to end up at Hawthorn, for them to build the squad they did, and then for them to have the success they had. A lot of them had absolutely nothing to do with Clarkson or Hawthorn.

Go back to the very start for example, when Terry Wallace rejected the gig, which opened the door for Clarkson.

Go back to the drafts and see the players Hawthorn wanted, only for them to be taken with prior picks, "forcing" them to select players who would go on to be fantastic for them.

It's just how the world works.

disagree with the whole luck thing, agree it plays a small part (more in the area of injuries) but nothing major like you say.
'Luck' doesn't give you three flags in a row, and more often than not the best team ends up with the flag.
The ability of making good of the circumstance you find yourself in plays a much bigger role.

Additionally, you can't just assume that every speed bump or sliding doors moment leading to a good outcome was 'luck' :tearsofjoy:. Bc you'll never know if the original plan would of been even better or not.
 

the big lebowski

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He’s a good coach, but that’s not solely why he won four flags.

The question here is can he win a flag at North.

A hell of a lot of things that have little (or absolutely nothing) to do with him have to go right for that to happen.

I think he’s an undisputed all time great coach.

As I said, other than 4 flags and almost 5, how could you explain the success of Simpson, beveridge, and Hardwick. Not to mention fagan, McRae etc.

But I’m not disputing premierships take luck as well
 

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