Can Dustin Martin be the GOAT?

Remove this Banner Ad

blitzer

Norm Smith Medallist
Aug 27, 2006
6,823
7,501
House
AFL Club
Essendon
I think he's more in contention for GFPOAT - Greatest Finals Player of all Time.
C'mon Richmond supporters you know he's not up with the best players in H&A and since there are tons more H&A games than finals games I don't see how you can really rate him as the GOAT.
You only have to look at his supercoach scores from say his best 5 seasons and compare it to someone like GAJ to see the gap. I'd consider supercoach scores to be a pretty fair evaluation method for someone who plays the role that Martin does. Just quietly Martin's highish clanger count and lower than elite possession count is the separator - plus bugger all tackles (not that unusual for elite players but still worth mentioning).
 

BF Tiger

Norm Smith Medallist
Jun 5, 2007
7,287
16,939
9th
AFL Club
Richmond
I think he's more in contention for GFPOAT - Greatest Finals Player of all Time.
C'mon Richmond supporters you know he's not up with the best players in H&A and since there are tons more H&A games than finals games I don't see how you can really rate him as the GOAT.
You only have to look at his supercoach scores from say his best 5 seasons and compare it to someone like GAJ to see the gap. I'd consider supercoach scores to be a pretty fair evaluation method for someone who plays the role that Martin does. Just quietly Martin's highish clanger count and lower than elite possession count is the separator - plus bugger all tackles (not that unusual for elite players but still worth mentioning).
Just on SuperCoach and possessions... when looking at raw numbers Dusty’s look lower, but no-one takes into account that Richmond are a low possession team and how this impacts on Dusty’s numbers. Richmond might possess 10% less than other sides, so it would follow that Dusty gets 10% less possessions than if he played in a high possession team. Dusty also has a higher kick:handball ratio, which leads to more clangers. Mix it all up and normalise and I reckon Dusty would sit comfortably with others in terms of total possessions, SuperCoach scores and clanger count.
 

Noidnadroj

Senior List
Dec 8, 2020
232
221
AFL Club
Richmond
Yep.

He's made the grand total of 4 All Australian teams.

Loads of players have made 6, 7, 8.

Ablett made 8 in a row, with his run only stopped by injury.
Yes, AA is one measure. What about finishing top-3 in B&F 8 times? Or top-10 in Brownlow 7 times, including winning it once with a record vote tally? Or being awarded Brownlow votes the 2nd most often in history? Very few players are above him when all measurements are considered.


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com
 

Log in to remove this ad.

Noidnadroj

Senior List
Dec 8, 2020
232
221
AFL Club
Richmond
AA forward pocket based off this season...

Can't even crack the midfield and people want to claim he's the GOAT?

GOAT finals performer this century no doubt though. Very impressive to stand up time and time again in GF's however the opposition for each premiership has been pretty dire unfortunately. Looking good in easy wins isn't all that impressive.

That 2017 season though was pretty incredible.
Adelaide finished top and won their finals by 8-goals and were short priced favourites .... but I agree they did look pretty dire..... after Martin tore them a new one.

And the Cats also looked pretty dire from about 5-minutes before half-time.... can’t remember what happened to take them from world beaters to also-rans..... oh, hang on, it’s coming back to me now .... Martin put on a GF masterclass for the ages.


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com
 

Noidnadroj

Senior List
Dec 8, 2020
232
221
AFL Club
Richmond
Dusty is popular with the umpires.

And?

It's a midfielders award, voted by people who work everyday jobs during the week, and are paid to adjudicate the contest on weekends.
Ok, so that means we ignore those who trumpet about Ablett’s 2 x Brownlows that should have been 4. Good to know.


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com
 

Noidnadroj

Senior List
Dec 8, 2020
232
221
AFL Club
Richmond
Dusty essentially had one brilliant season. Much like Fyfe, Danger, and Neale also did in recent years.

But other than 2017, Martin's been a good player who's elevated himself into greatness by standing up in finals games.

A true clutch performer with huge performances in big finals. And that means he's an AFL great. No doubt.

But he's not in the all time discussion with people like Leigh Matthews and Gary Ablett Jr. People who consistently distinguished themselves at a genuinely elite level, weekly for 10+ years.

Not yet.

This whole thread is a bit of fun, pushed along by Richmond fans who presumably spent countless hours watching Grand Final replays during lockdown. But let's not kid ourselves - Dustin Martin is nowhere near the GOAT.

He's only been voted one of the best 22 players in the competition in 4 different seasons in his career!
And he has been voted by umpires in the best 3 players on the ground 38.9% of games he has played. Lethal in 21%. So do Media personalities who pick the AA and who have state biases know more or umpires ?? (I mean Byrne Jones made AA in 2020 and Grimes didn’t, so kudos to the token SA selector on that one).

So there are multiple measurements and you need to analyse all of them.


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com
 

Noidnadroj

Senior List
Dec 8, 2020
232
221
AFL Club
Richmond
I think he's more in contention for GFPOAT - Greatest Finals Player of all Time.
C'mon Richmond supporters you know he's not up with the best players in H&A and since there are tons more H&A games than finals games I don't see how you can really rate him as the GOAT.
You only have to look at his supercoach scores from say his best 5 seasons and compare it to someone like GAJ to see the gap. I'd consider supercoach scores to be a pretty fair evaluation method for someone who plays the role that Martin does. Just quietly Martin's highish clanger count and lower than elite possession count is the separator - plus bugger all tackles (not that unusual for elite players but still worth mentioning).
When you start referencing SC scores it’s time to leave the chat. Richmond don’t play a SC friendly game style, so it’s completely irrelevant. Jake Lloyd is a SC gun.... I’ll leave it at that.


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com
 

PJays

All Australian
Nov 2, 2020
669
749
AFL Club
St Kilda
Yes, AA is one measure. What about finishing top-3 in B&F 8 times? Or top-10 in Brownlow 7 times, including winning it once with a record vote tally? Or being awarded Brownlow votes the 2nd most often in history? Very few players are above him when all measurements are considered.


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com
The most useful measures are AA's and AFLCA.

On AA's, he has 4.

On AFLCA, if anyone has historical vote data let me know, but over the last 4 years (from their website). Dusty has gone:

2017- Won a tight finish over Danger
2018- 8th
2019- Outside top 10
2020- Outside top 10

Danger has more votes over 2017-2020 than Dusty. And obviously would've had a lot more pre 2017 than Dusty. (Overall I put Dusty ahead of Danger, but I'm just pointing out here that in H&A Danger's ahead).

Dusty's a clutch performer. One of the greatest clutch performers ever. But his week-to-week contributions over his 11 seasons simply don't justify putting him into the rarified discussion of VFL/AFL GOAT.

Dusty's a very good player who elevates himself in big games. But he hasn't been consistently elite through season after season over a long period. And shouldn't be compared with those who have. Matthews, Ablett Jr being two examples.
 
Last edited:

PJays

All Australian
Nov 2, 2020
669
749
AFL Club
St Kilda
I'd like to see this list of the ten midfielders of the AFL era who surpass Martin.
Noidnadroj suggested only Ablett and "very few others" would be ahead of Dusty in H&A.

Here's players who would be ahead of Dusty in H&A. Restricted to AFL era midfielders. Obviously the list would be much longer if you include forwards and backs.

Not a complete list, just a quick list I've put together. There might be others.

Buckley
Hird
Voss
Harvey
Ricciuto
McLeod
Judd
Cousins
Ablett Jr
Selwood
Swan
Pendlebury
Dangerfield
 

PJays

All Australian
Nov 2, 2020
669
749
AFL Club
St Kilda
I should add, this distinction between H&A and finals isn't helpful. The entire body of work must be considered.

Ablett won 3 straight AFLCA and AFLPA awards in 07-09. He was the best in the comp 3 years in a row, during an era where Geelong had a 55-3 run and made 3 straight GFs. Geelong was a top 2 team, all year every year except the first few weeks of 2007. He earned Norm Smith votes in 2 of those GFs, but ultimately its his contribution towards getting Geelong into those GFs that illustrates his consistent brilliance.

Premierships aren't just won on Grand Final day. They're won by teams who spend 22 weeks putting themselves into the position to compete (eg top 3 or top 4).

Geelong was in the top 2 box seat all year every year, helped along by Ablett, and won a couple of flags with Ablett playing big roles in Grand Finals. Dusty has been a good player in a team who's usually scraped into the top 4, and then stepped up big time in finals.

Dusty is clutch. Ablett was consistently elite. There's no comparison. Or, there won't be unless Dusty puts in another epic year like 2017, or wins yet another Ayres Award. If he does, then we'll have a serious discussion on our hands.
 

SleepingGiant

Club Legend
Apr 7, 2009
1,348
180
Geelong
AFL Club
Richmond
Lol.

I watched Gary Ablett Sr kick 9 of them in the replay of 89 that was on Fox this morning
Lol.

literally cherry picking a player in an era where he was one on one in a paddock vs Martin trying to navigate zone defences. I love how the only counter to Martin’s greatness is quoting players in eras where they could easily get inflated stats due to bigger all defensive pressure. We are witnessing something special and he is already the GOAT in my mind. None of these players have won finals with so much influence. 3 Norms, 3 finals MVPs and also mind you the MVP of the state of origin match. He is the GOAT finals player and if he repeats this year he is the GOAT.
 

(Log in to remove this ad.)

PhatBoy

Brownlow Medallist
May 5, 2016
24,672
25,983
AFL Club
Geelong
Lol.

literally cherry picking a player in an era where he was one on one in a paddock vs Martin trying to navigate zone defences. I love how the only counter to Martin’s greatness is quoting players in eras where they could easily get inflated stats due to bigger all defensive pressure. We are witnessing something special and he is already the GOAT in my mind. None of these players have won finals with so much influence. 3 Norms, 3 finals MVPs and also mind you the MVP of the state of origin match. He is the GOAT finals player and if he repeats this year he is the GOAT.

Oh well it doesn’t count.

It was so easy back then that everyone was kicking 9 goals against the greatest team that ever existed. It was straight forward. It’s why everyone mentions the norm smith winners from losing teams with 9 goals any time great grand final performances are mentioned
 

PhatBoy

Brownlow Medallist
May 5, 2016
24,672
25,983
AFL Club
Geelong
Lol, so you dare to say Judd is ahead do you? I had Judd and him dead even before this years finals series, but after that it’s over. Judd is way off.

Yeah amazing as it is, someone has weighed up all the intimidating consequences of thinking one guy is better at kicking a bag of air than another guy, as taken the plunge - DARED to think that.

What a risk taker.
 

Noidnadroj

Senior List
Dec 8, 2020
232
221
AFL Club
Richmond
The most useful measures are AA's and AFLCA.

On AA's, he has 4.

On AFLCA, if anyone has historical vote data let me know, but over the last 4 years (from their website). Dusty has gone:

2017- Won a tight finish over Danger
2018- 8th
2019- Outside top 10
2020- Outside top 10

Danger has more votes over 2017-2020 than Dusty. And obviously would've had a lot more pre 2017 than Dusty. (Overall I put Dusty ahead of Danger, but I'm just pointing out here that in H&A Danger's ahead).

Dusty's a clutch performer. One of the greatest clutch performers ever. But his week-to-week contributions over his 11 seasons simply don't justify putting him into the rarified discussion of VFL/AFL GOAT.

Dusty's a very good player who elevates himself in big games. But he hasn't been consistently elite through season after season over a long period. And shouldn't be compared with those who have. Matthews, Ablett Jr being two examples.
So you’ve chosen AA and AFLCA over Brownlow and B&F .... obviously because they better suit your argument.

B&F is voted by the entire coaching staff based on value to the team on a week to week basis ... the very nature of the award is to reward consistency. He has 8 x top-3 finishes in 11 seasons.

And I like the way you emphasize how 2017 in the AFLCA was a ‘narrow’ win over Danger. I would have said he won with a record number of votes still standing today.....

Anyway ... I agree he sits behind GAJ, Danger and a few others in respect to H&A performance m. But being the finals GOAT puts him into the GOAT conversation.


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com
 

PJays

All Australian
Nov 2, 2020
669
749
AFL Club
St Kilda
So you’ve chosen AA and AFLCA over Brownlow and B&F .... obviously because they better suit your argument.
Because they're voted by ex players and current coaches from the entire competition. Rather than umpires and his own coaches!

AFLPA Leigh Matthews Trophy also an indicative one but I'd place it behind coaches.

And I like the way you emphasize how 2017 in the AFLCA was a ‘narrow’ win over Danger.
122 to 118 is a narrow win, is it not!?

Nonetheless a brilliant season by Martin, as I already said. Difference being Ablett Jr won 3 in a row! And 5 Leigh Matthews Trophies!
 

Stealth69

Debutant
Apr 14, 2014
90
179
AFL Club
Richmond
There is no player that I've seen that has a more overall influence in a game. Martin may have 20 possessions or 30 possessions but I guarantee you he would influence games like no other.

The player that played with similar impact was Cousins at his peak, better than Judd. Hird could influence a game, Hodge, Judd, and Cyril with limited but very potent touches, these type of players are superior to most midfield gathering players that are a dime a dozen

Richmond have won many games and we've had a very even balanced team. Had Martin played in a team languishing between 10th-6thish he would have stood out more within the team

Gun, Gun, Gun
 

PhatBoy

Brownlow Medallist
May 5, 2016
24,672
25,983
AFL Club
Geelong
There is no player that I've seen that has a more overall influence in a game. Martin may have 20 possessions or 30 possessions but I guarantee you he would influence games like no other.

The player that played with similar impact was Cousins at his peak, better than Judd. Hird could influence a game, Hodge, Judd, and Cyril with limited but very potent touches, these type of players are superior to most midfield gathering players that are a dime a dozen

Richmond have won many games and we've had a very even balanced team. Had Martin played in a team languishing between 10th-6thish he would have stood out more within the team

Gun, Gun, Gun

Why are those sorts of players superior?

Just because your impact-to-touches ratio may be higher, it doesn’t mean your impact is higher.
 

Jumboprince

UPRIGHT MEMBER
Oct 16, 2011
11,599
26,797
AFL Club
Adelaide
Other Teams
Yahl Cricket Club
Nah, he won't the GOAT but at the end of his career, he certainly deserves to be in the conversation at the pointy end.
 

Noidnadroj

Senior List
Dec 8, 2020
232
221
AFL Club
Richmond
Noidnadroj suggested only Ablett and "very few others" would be ahead of Dusty in H&A.

Here's players who would be ahead of Dusty in H&A. Restricted to AFL era midfielders. Obviously the list would be much longer if you include forwards and backs.

Not a complete list, just a quick list I've put together. There might be others.

Buckley
Hird
Voss
Harvey
Ricciuto
McLeod
Judd
Cousins
Ablett Jr
Selwood
Swan
Pendlebury
Dangerfield
The sands of time paint a very rosy picture of all the great players.

And Martin is being ranked as a midfielder, yet has clearly the best one-on-one contest winning percentage of any player over the last 5-years, including key forwards.

Anyway ... it’s an enjoyable debate.


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com
 

David_Full

Team Captain
Nov 28, 2017
464
1,022
AFL Club
Richmond
When you start referencing SC scores it’s time to leave the chat. Richmond don’t play a SC friendly game style, so it’s completely irrelevant. Jake Lloyd is a SC gun.... I’ll leave it at that.


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com
Exactly if we went by SC or Fantasy stats than Tom Rockliff would be one of the greatest players ever.
 

David_Full

Team Captain
Nov 28, 2017
464
1,022
AFL Club
Richmond
The most useful measures are AA's and AFLCA.

On AA's, he has 4.

On AFLCA, if anyone has historical vote data let me know, but over the last 4 years (from their website). Dusty has gone:

2017- Won a tight finish over Danger
2018- 8th
2019- Outside top 10
2020- Outside top 10

Danger has more votes over 2017-2020 than Dusty. And obviously would've had a lot more pre 2017 than Dusty. (Overall I put Dusty ahead of Danger, but I'm just pointing out here that in H&A Danger's ahead).

Dusty's a clutch performer. One of the greatest clutch performers ever. But his week-to-week contributions over his 11 seasons simply don't justify putting him into the rarified discussion of VFL/AFL GOAT.

Dusty's a very good player who elevates himself in big games. But he hasn't been consistently elite through season after season over a long period. And shouldn't be compared with those who have. Matthews, Ablett Jr being two examples.
Cause every year everyone 100% agrees with the AA selected team right?
 

Remove this Banner Ad