Can Dustin Martin be the GOAT?

Remove this Banner Ad

Richo83

Brownlow Medallist
Oct 2, 2005
19,666
7,278
Melbourne
AFL Club
Richmond
The main problem with the All-Australian teams is that it's just a bunch of media types sitting around and picking players from the season based on the limited games they've seen and stats which can be cut and diced in many ways. If you picked another group of media types to pick the team, they'd probably pick different players.

It's less important than say player of the year awards which actually rank players game by game instead of doing it once at the end of the year. It's also compromised by the fact that selectors can't decide if they're picking for position or trying to squeeze the best 22 into the side.
 

Noidnadroj

Senior List
Dec 8, 2020
232
221
AFL Club
Richmond
The main problem with the All-Australian teams is that it's just a bunch of media types sitting around and picking players from the season based on the limited games they've seen and stats which can be cut and diced in many ways. If you picked another group of media types to pick the team, they'd probably pick different players.

It's less important than say player of the year awards which actually rank players game by game instead of doing it once at the end of the year. It's also compromised by the fact that selectors can't decide if they're picking for position or trying to squeeze the best 22 into the side.
AA is a decent guide, but they make a couple of howlers most years.

Exhibit A: 2020: Darcy Byrne Jones and Sheppard in, Grimes out.

I know DBJ won their B&F.... no idea how he beat Boak, but I digress.... They way Dusty brushed aside DBJ in the final ....twice... was embarrassing.

Ask every single coach including Hinkley to select 6 x defenders to play in a final in 2020 - are you honestly telling me Grimes is not being selected? AA selectors are too focussed on stats at times (except the year Jack Riewoldt won the Coleman and didn’t make the team - seriously, how does that happen !?) .... I’ve got a loooong memory.


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com
 

Do the Dew

Club Legend
Feb 14, 2019
1,157
3,099
Stuart Dew's Gut
AFL Club
Richmond
Yes and if Dunstall winning B&f’s and Coleman’s in premiership years isn’t ‘carrying a team’ I don’t know what is.

Dusty was outstanding and great in 2017 but he had a very good team playing very good footy around him. Lets not pretend that Richmond were a bad 22 in 17 because of what happened in 16. I am just using the same logic that the OP was using.
Well then your argument about a player leading a bad team to a flag doesn't make any sense. Because let's be honest, no "bad" teams win flags, they're all extremely bloody good. So you can't pot Dusty for never having done it, because no-one else has done it either.

What's funny is you completely dismissed my reasoning that Dusty led us to a flag in 2017. All the crap we went through in 2016 combined with what most were calling an average to poor list. And Dusty led the on-field charge for us back up the ladder. You can't deny that.
 

Log in to remove this ad.

P4Life

Debutant
Mar 25, 2019
147
276
AFL Club
Port Adelaide
AA is a decent guide, but they make a couple of howlers most years.

Exhibit A: 2020: Darcy Byrne Jones and Sheppard in, Grimes out.

I know DBJ won their B&F.... no idea how he beat Boak, but I digress.... They way Dusty brushed aside DBJ in the final ....twice... was embarrassing.

Ask every single coach including Hinkley to select 6 x defenders to play in a final in 2020 - are you honestly telling me Grimes is not being selected? AA selectors are too focussed on stats at times (except the year Jack Riewoldt won the Coleman and didn’t make the team - seriously, how does that happen !?) .... I’ve got a loooong memory.


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com
Not sure if you are aware but Grimes and Vlaustin made the All Australian team for Diving and Staging if that is any consolation.
Captain and Vice apparently.
 

BJK#5

Norm Smith Medallist
Aug 9, 2017
8,279
26,477
AFL Club
Hawthorn
Other Teams
Hurricanes, Panthers
Well then your argument about a player leading a bad team to a flag doesn't make any sense. Because let's be honest, no "bad" teams win flags, they're all extremely bloody good. So you can't pot Dusty for never having done it, because no-one else has done it either.

What's funny is you completely dismissed my reasoning that Dusty led us to a flag in 2017. All the crap we went through in 2016 combined with what most were calling an average to poor list. And Dusty led the on-field charge for us back up the ladder. You can't deny that.
Again it is not 'my logic' i was replying to the OP who was claiming Dunstall never managed to do it. This was not my way of talking down Dusty it is pointing out how stupid it is to claim Dunstall was a 'workman like player'

If winning Colemans and B&F's in premiership years is not 'carrying a team' neither is anything else.

What you were is pretty irrelevant to what you were in 2017. I could just as easily point to flags in 19 and 20 and a prelim in 18 to prove you were a stacked team.
 

Richo83

Brownlow Medallist
Oct 2, 2005
19,666
7,278
Melbourne
AFL Club
Richmond
AA is a decent guide, but they make a couple of howlers most years.

Exhibit A: 2020: Darcy Byrne Jones and Sheppard in, Grimes out.

I know DBJ won their B&F.... no idea how he beat Boak, but I digress.... They way Dusty brushed aside DBJ in the final ....twice... was embarrassing.

Ask every single coach including Hinkley to select 6 x defenders to play in a final in 2020 - are you honestly telling me Grimes is not being selected? AA selectors are too focussed on stats at times (except the year Jack Riewoldt won the Coleman and didn’t make the team - seriously, how does that happen !?) .... I’ve got a loooong memory.


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com
I agree. Grimes is a better backman and is far more versatile. Byrne-Jones only covers small forwards and I'd be worried about putting him on a small forward for an entire game, or any of the elite midfielders who push forward.

I like Byrne-Jones, but he did have a poor preliminary final. Small defenders often play as part of a system and get roles as opposed to playing 100% on one player. IMO he had a good season because his fellow defenders set up a good defensive system. But I don't think his form really shows him to be one of the best defenders in the league, just shows his team was able to keep sides to low scores, especially at home. Against Martin in key moments, he looked like a young undersized defender who lacked the ability to be truly accountable. He was beaten easily against Martin on a one-on-one and none of the defenders picked up Martin's movement for his other goal. I also thought the small defenders did a poor job closing down Lambert for the game winner.

This is why IMO every defender in the All-Australian team should be a defender who can actually play specifically on a player, rather than a guy who just plays in a certain area or gets the sixth man or acts as one of the rebounders.

Shepperd I can justify. He's versatile and I've seen him play on a range of smalls and talls.
 

Noidnadroj

Senior List
Dec 8, 2020
232
221
AFL Club
Richmond
Not sure if you are aware but Grimes and Vlaustin made the All Australian team for Diving and Staging if that is any consolation.
Captain and Vice apparently.
All I can remember is Rozee staging in the prelim.... 3 times in a quarter from memory.

But my fondest memory was Duursma’s dropped chest mark not long after gobbing off at Lynch - talk about getting ahead of yourself. He should have marked it in his mouth.

How sweet it is !!


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com
 

P4Life

Debutant
Mar 25, 2019
147
276
AFL Club
Port Adelaide
All I can remember is Rozee staging in the prelim.... 3 times in a quarter from memory.

But my fondest memory was Duursma’s dropped chest mark not long after gobbing off at Lynch - talk about getting ahead of yourself. He should have marked it in his mouth.

How sweet it is !!


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com
Aah Richmond supporters, they win 3 of the last 4 flags, and they still have to respond to every tongue in cheek comment as though it is a personal affront.
Thing is Grimes or Maynard should have been the 7th defender instead of Caleb Daniel anyway.
Enjoy your success and stop potting other teams players.
 

Noidnadroj

Senior List
Dec 8, 2020
232
221
AFL Club
Richmond
Aah Richmond supporters, they win 3 of the last 4 flags, and they still have to respond to every tongue in cheek comment as though it is a personal affront.
Thing is Grimes or Maynard should have been the 7th defender instead of Caleb Daniel anyway.
Enjoy your success and stop potting other teams players.
..... I respond to your comment that specifically pots Grimes and Vlastuin as stagers .... probably the worst reputation a player can be tarnished with.

Then you get upset about me potting other teams players .... clearly the irony is lost on you.




Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com
 

Ceehook

Club Legend
Oct 3, 2017
1,028
2,871
AFL Club
Richmond
with a brownlow and 3 norm smith's in his kit bag
and a body that looks in very good shape the answer has to be yes he can

Of more recent times we've seen some stellar work from the likes of Gary Jnr , Buddy , Dangerfield , Judd, Cousins , Cyril Rioli , Goodes etc

and everyone has their own style and we all have our favourites
they thrill us , change games in just a few minutes and make our game great

is he better than this one or did that one achieve more … you can argue in circles for ever

how much longer can he play , will his hunger stay strong enough and can he keep adapting as the game changes ?

I think he will have a long career , not what non Richmond supporters want to hear :)
 

Vassp

Club Legend
Jun 30, 2018
2,262
3,726
AFL Club
Richmond
Again it is not 'my logic' i was replying to the OP who was claiming Dunstall never managed to do it. This was not my way of talking down Dusty it is pointing out how stupid it is to claim Dunstall was a 'workman like player'

If winning Colemans and B&F's in premiership years is not 'carrying a team' neither is anything else.

What you were is pretty irrelevant to what you were in 2017. I could just as easily point to flags in 19 and 20 and a prelim in 18 to prove you were a stacked team.
Two different players. Dunstall was an A grade finisher, was reliable and was well supplied.
Dusty made the incredible happen and could supply and could finish.
Dusty is multi dimensional.....Dunstall was a straight out goal kicking machine.
 

(Log in to remove this ad.)

Goggin Our Best

Norm Smith Medallist
May 23, 2011
5,126
7,297
sydney
AFL Club
Geelong
Who would be his challengers for that title at Richmond?
Hart?
Bartlett?
This is just my opinion - as a neutral

I would place Royce Hart 3rd - he was a tremendous player - great to watch - had all the skill etc - and vitally important to Rich chances - eg 73 PF - 6 goals down at h/t - he comes onto the ground and Rich storm home and win . However i did here Rex Hunt who was a team mate of Royce at the time - say that Carey was a better allround player - so you have to give weight to that opinion because he was premiership team mate of him

I would ( at this stage ) put Dustin Martin 2nd - all the superlatives have already been said - 3 Norm Smiths - and when he gets the ball he is such a beautiful finisher

However at this point i would still have Kevin Bartlett as number 1 - i think there is a bit - well actually gross underselling of KB- games record holder at one point

A great rover - and then goes to a permanent hff ( starvation corner ) - kicks 20 goals over 3 finals in 80 final series - how many players could do that at his age 32 or 33 . Bartlett was a once in year 50 player - and all opposition supporters at the time knew how good he was and how dangerous he was - and he did it week in week out - tremendously consistent over a long period of time .
 

ParapMarkets

Premiership Player
Sep 24, 2015
3,782
7,601
Perth
AFL Club
Carlton
He probably doesn’t have the home and away consistency as many others, but the way he has been regularly able to elevate his game come finals time (especially his gf performances) would have to put him in the conversation as the GOAT in my time watching footy. And he still looks to have some good years ahead of him.
 

Wallaby

Norm Smith Medallist
May 8, 2007
9,445
12,072
vic
AFL Club
Richmond
This is just my opinion - as a neutral

I would place Royce Hart 3rd - he was a tremendous player - great to watch - had all the skill etc - and vitally important to Rich chances - eg 73 PF - 6 goals down at h/t - he comes onto the ground and Rich storm home and win . However i did here Rex Hunt who was a team mate of Royce at the time - say that Carey was a better allround player - so you have to give weight to that opinion because he was premiership team mate of him

I would ( at this stage ) put Dustin Martin 2nd - all the superlatives have already been said - 3 Norm Smiths - and when he gets the ball he is such a beautiful finisher

However at this point i would still have Kevin Bartlett as number 1 - i think there is a bit - well actually gross underselling of KB- games record holder at one point

A great rover - and then goes to a permanent hff ( starvation corner ) - kicks 20 goals over 3 finals in 80 final series - how many players could do that at his age 32 or 33 . Bartlett was a once in year 50 player - and all opposition supporters at the time knew how good he was and how dangerous he was - and he did it week in week out - tremendously consistent over a long period of time .
Agree. I have Bartlett as the best Richmond player I have seen, and Martin as No 2.
 

Grrr

Norm Smith Medallist
Aug 16, 2009
6,401
13,729
mildura
AFL Club
Richmond
This is just my opinion - as a neutral

I would place Royce Hart 3rd - he was a tremendous player - great to watch - had all the skill etc - and vitally important to Rich chances - eg 73 PF - 6 goals down at h/t - he comes onto the ground and Rich storm home and win . However i did here Rex Hunt who was a team mate of Royce at the time - say that Carey was a better allround player - so you have to give weight to that opinion because he was premiership team mate of him

I would ( at this stage ) put Dustin Martin 2nd - all the superlatives have already been said - 3 Norm Smiths - and when he gets the ball he is such a beautiful finisher

However at this point i would still have Kevin Bartlett as number 1 - i think there is a bit - well actually gross underselling of KB- games record holder at one point

A great rover - and then goes to a permanent hff ( starvation corner ) - kicks 20 goals over 3 finals in 80 final series - how many players could do that at his age 32 or 33 . Bartlett was a once in year 50 player - and all opposition supporters at the time knew how good he was and how dangerous he was - and he did it week in week out - tremendously consistent over a long period of time .
Agree with your ratings. Hart only played 187 games, the last half with a bung knee. If not for that who knows how good he would have been.
Bartlett was a phenomenon. 778 goals, a good deal as a rover. 33 when he kicked the 21 in the finals, including 8 goals 7 against your mob in the Prelim. Hard to beat that.
 

Ricky Vaughn

Premiership Player
Feb 9, 2015
3,593
6,853
AFL Club
Geelong
AA is a decent guide, but they make a couple of howlers most years.

Exhibit A: 2020: Darcy Byrne Jones and Sheppard in, Grimes out.

I know DBJ won their B&F.... no idea how he beat Boak, but I digress.... They way Dusty brushed aside DBJ in the final ....twice... was embarrassing.

Ask every single coach including Hinkley to select 6 x defenders to play in a final in 2020 - are you honestly telling me Grimes is not being selected? AA selectors are too focussed on stats at times (except the year Jack Riewoldt won the Coleman and didn’t make the team - seriously, how does that happen !?) .... I’ve got a loooong memory.


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com
On Riewoldt
He came 7th in Richmond's B&F and you missed finals. Riewoldt kicked goals, while Franklin and Hawkins had better seasons. Matthew Pavlich was absolutely robbed that year however.

Also, DBJ had a great year, well and truly deserved AA. If an inability to handle Dustin Martin precluded you from AA selection, we can only find a spot for Matt De Boar and leave the other 5 spots unfilled.
 

Bazzar

Hall of Famer
May 8, 2007
46,060
66,433
AFL Club
Richmond
Agree. I have Bartlett as the best Richmond player I have seen, and Martin as No 2.
Played in 5 winning flags, leading goal kicker in two of those years, best and fairest in 3 flag years ( 5 all up) won the second only Norm Smith in 1980, would have won 3 others if the medal was around, he was a freak. and a bit of odd trivia, he couldn't touch his toes.
 

captain blood 17

1980🏆2017🏆2019🏆2020🏆
Dec 9, 2006
44,411
88,616
Tom Browns trash can
AFL Club
Richmond
Other Teams
Aston Villa Traralgon Football Club
Haha nice diversion from your comment about Ablett

A 36 year old Ablett, after sustaining an injury during the game, struggled in the GF so Martin has crushed him

Let's see what Martin's doing in 2027. Probably drinking the hard stuff and getting the last 1% of his body tattooed.....
He'll probably be an 8 time Norm Smith medallist and 8 time premiership player by then. That's a lot of cups to get tattoo'd on the body.
 

captain blood 17

1980🏆2017🏆2019🏆2020🏆
Dec 9, 2006
44,411
88,616
Tom Browns trash can
AFL Club
Richmond
Other Teams
Aston Villa Traralgon Football Club
Not sure if you are aware but Grimes and Vlaustin made the All Australian team for Diving and Staging if that is any consolation.
Captain and Vice apparently.
Bitched your mob on your home deck in front of 50000 banana throwing ferals. And that deliberate out of bounds was there. Every day of the week. Your tears nourish me.


giphy-2.gif
 

captain blood 17

1980🏆2017🏆2019🏆2020🏆
Dec 9, 2006
44,411
88,616
Tom Browns trash can
AFL Club
Richmond
Other Teams
Aston Villa Traralgon Football Club
All I can remember is Rozee staging in the prelim.... 3 times in a quarter from memory.

But my fondest memory was Duursma’s dropped chest mark not long after gobbing off at Lynch - talk about getting ahead of yourself. He should have marked it in his mouth.

How sweet it is !!


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com
giphy-1.gif
 

Remove this Banner Ad