Can Dustin Martin be the GOAT?

Discussion in 'AFL - The Australian Football League' started by adammania9, Sep 30, 2017.

Put it out there
  1. Grrr

    Grrr Club Legend

    Richmond
    Other teams:
    Joined:
    Aug 09
    Posts:
    1,151
    Location:
    mildura
    For me Gary Ablett Snr and Leigh Matthews are the best I've seen. Royce Hart & Carey not far behind, then all the great midfielders, Ian Stewart, Robert Harvey, Riccuto, Voss, Judd etc. Forwards, mid/forwards like Ablett and Matthews are great because they can do it all. Both Danger and Martin are mainly mids who go forward, but they are not in the same league as forwards as Ablett/Matthews and about as good as them as mids. Martin is special because he is playing like a big male lion, it will take at least two others to bring him down, so he bullies his way around. At the same time he brings others into the game. Great season, and if he keeps repeating it he will keep company with those mentioned above. Similar to Fyfe a few years ago, neither will be GOAT.
     
    Requiem and Bokonon_ like this.

    (Log in to remove this ad.)

  2. ItsAllAboutMe

    ItsAllAboutMe Premiership Player

    Carlton
    Other teams:
    Tottenham Hotspur
    Joined:
    Dec 06
    Posts:
    4,819
    No.. He has had an unbelievable year, but he is already 26. Wayne Carey was dominating at the level Dusty is when he was 21.
     
  3. Xenthor

    Xenthor Club Legend

    Melbourne
    Other teams:
    Joined:
    Feb 16
    Posts:
    1,209
    Location:
    KFC
    Do people actually forget how Good Gary Ablett is? Or is it just that Dusty is the flavour of the month?
    Ablett Senior, Ablett Junior, Carey, Matthews, Franklin will go down in the GOAT conversation. Dusty will be remembered as a great player, perhaps even Richmond team of the century one day, but he is a step below the others.
     
    Lightsxo likes this.
  4. ItsAllAboutMe

    ItsAllAboutMe Premiership Player

    Carlton
    Other teams:
    Tottenham Hotspur
    Joined:
    Dec 06
    Posts:
    4,819
    100%.. I reckon the exact same things were being said about Dangerfield 12 months ago, and Bontempelli was to be the next big thing to take the comp by storm, Josh Kelly was the player early in the year.. What Dusty achieved in 1 year is remarkable and probably unprecedented winning almost every single individual award and the premiership but he would need to do it over 10 years to be even in the conversation as GOAT.
     
    Half Forward likes this.
  5. cannot

    cannot Norm Smith Medallist

    Richmond
    Other teams:
    Joined:
    Nov 16
    Posts:
    5,063
    Location:
    ^^ ""Flat World Champions".
    was?
     
    Xenthor likes this.
  6. cannot

    cannot Norm Smith Medallist

    Richmond
    Other teams:
    Joined:
    Nov 16
    Posts:
    5,063
    Location:
    ^^ ""Flat World Champions".
    hes got the iconic / (unique?) dont argue thou. Dusty has Buddy covered i reckon - x3 times more "tackles broken" than the 2nd best in the afl... lol

    bestfinalsplayer award (?? i didnt know this was a thing)
    flag
    b+f
    mvp
    brownlow
    etc.


    not bad

    also #1 in the afl for 1v1 inside f50, or was

    not as spectacular as a speccie but more efficient. like 22 contested touches in a gf or a shitload of goals and possessions every season since he said "i was born for this" & the media got upset at neck tats
     
    blackcat likes this.
  7. blackcat

    blackcat Brownlow Medallist

    Richmond
    Other teams:
    Joined:
    Dec 03
    Posts:
    23,723
    Location:
    melbourne
    Dusty and Dangerfield, they hit a certain sweetspot, where teams started playing a grid 18man defense, that even tho KB puts on his cloak for the Hungryforsport shtick, he knows, the tagger is for all 18 players on the offense*, by all 18 players on the defense*

    Now, previously Dangerfield and Dusty and Fyfe and Mitchell and Ablett and Swan, their 3 vote games would be tagged away, and a few of those three vote games by Dangerfield and Dusty would have dissipated.

    The game, as ever, is in flux, evolving (that may be axiomatic, automatic presumption). A few teams on some* days, have been able to tackle Dusty, but on the whole, no one can bring him down and tackle him and cope with the fend off. He has inverted tackling. He does an offensive tackle, putting the defender into reverse like that 15yo wannabe terrorist on Friday on Flinders street doing the reverse burn-outs.

    Dusty IS UNIQUE. I completely agree, and even if he was given NRL tacklers, whose bodies need to have stamina for the AFL game, so have lost some muscle, some of them will not be able to negate his fend. *some. There will also be some who can beat his offensive fend, more times than they lose to him. But they would be the best of the NRL tacklers. Not our game. So a heavy caveat.

    But I think Franklin is superior, and his unique has it over Dusty's unique. See how Fyfe and Dangerfield also busted thru tackles and broke away from contests thru sheer pre-season work in the gym with high intensity movements on their explosivity *pleonasm, and crossfit and Olympic movements like cleans (clean and jerk). They broke tackles thru absolute force majeure https://www.google.com.au/search?rl...ck...0...1..64.psy-ab..0.0.0....0.QegsDIu2W3E

    but like I said, on the NRL tacklers, I think they will put even more work in how they negate him, and the few times and games he was negated and had holding-the-ball decisions against him.

    One tactic I am sure will be used, is the Mcguire lobbying tactic, Dusty gets away with a material amount of "high fend-offs". The umpires are lulled into spectating pov at his tour-de-force.

    If I was the opposition 17 teams, I would get this out on the umpires radar for every game next year, a little like how they changed the high-tackles to neutralise Selwood, and the smear on Thomas from North Melbourne playing up for free kicks. Well, they should use this against Dusty. They wont stop him, but they may get a decision against him every second game. I would arc up if I was an opposing coach. All is fair in love and war.

    They may not go in with their chest being so open to a fend-off. They may only go in from a different direction, they may not attempt to go in from front on, they may lower their chest so they are more likely to get a Selwood-high-tackle inverted free kick.

    They will have more techniques to neutralise Dusty. but guess what. They wont neutralise him. They may stem his influence on the margins, but by then he has won the games for the Tiges!!!

    my point about flux and evolution, it is a sweet spot was made to exploit, but if it came ten years ago Ablett jnr and Swan and Kerr and Judd would have also run riot innit. But the game put a heavy emphasis on tagging during their reign. This is neither here nor there, not making them better or worse, I am just putting a greater explanation on the reference to sweet spot, this does not make Dusty worse or better. I could die a happy man with Dusty getting a dozen fend offs a year, singing the song ten times a year, Cotch winning a browlow that is not taken of Jobe, and Riewoldt kicking a ton. Dusty is great. He foot is lethal they way it is like a tracer bullet flying low, like Buddy's pinpoint passes flying low.

    *asterisk caveat, is cos for most, I avoid using Seppo terms to describe a native game (our game), so you will not hear me saying spot-up, spotted-up, offense, defense, going-forward etc etc etc. You wont hear me saying Winnebago neither, it is caravan, or Jayco or Viscount. not Winnebago.
     
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2017
    cannot likes this.
  8. blackcat

    blackcat Brownlow Medallist

    Richmond
    Other teams:
    Joined:
    Dec 03
    Posts:
    23,723
    Location:
    melbourne
    actually, I want to make one more point. And I agree with this point you make.

    He may be the best one-out guy ever in the forward 50 when a 50/50 ball comes floating in. He never loses his feet, and his ability to mis-handle (the word I seek to use is -to put the opposition off-balance), the way Dusty can put the opposition off his feet and centre of gravity and manoeuvre him so he gets a 50-50 to his(Dusty's) overwhelming advantage, is... Olympian greco-Roman wrestler level, gestalt with the best NRL body control player, and power-to-weight.

    When Dangerfield dobbed those 6 goals in a half or what, when he was placed in the forward 50 down at Skilled, they were mostly marks where he had a free run and could RoyceHart/NathanFyfe (verb neologism) run at the ball and take his unencumbered leap. But that could be neutralised, it can potentially be neutralised by someone like Rance filling a hole.

    When the ball hits the ground and Dusty is one-on-one, it is a thing of beauty, I think the opposition defender literally shits their shorts when they are left one out with Dusty.

    Ablett senior? Lockett? Carey? Buddy?

    nope, I think he is superior to them all one-out. And the statistics on one-on-one 'win percentage' back me up.

    Geelong and Freo supporters, I too, marvel at Fyfe and Dangerfield.
     
    cannot likes this.
  9. TheUndertaker

    TheUndertaker The Phenom from Death Valley

    Richmond
    Other teams:
    Brothers of Destruction
    Joined:
    Oct 08
    Posts:
    6,161
    Location:
    Death Valley
    Kevin Bartlett has 5 premierships, 5 best and fairest awards and is the greatest player in finals history, just look at his stats. Destroys Gary Ablett Snr.

    And Dustin Martin's 2017 is infinitely better than any season Gary Ablett Jnr has ever had.
     
  10. Believe Me

    Believe Me Debutant

    Collingwood
    Other teams:
    Joined:
    Oct 12
    Posts:
    53
    Ablett Jnr is the best midfielder of this generation hands down. Dusty martin might've gotten more awards in a single season but every one who has watched Ablett play will know no other player in the generation matches his completeness as a player.
     
  11. Xenthor

    Xenthor Club Legend

    Melbourne
    Other teams:
    Joined:
    Feb 16
    Posts:
    1,209
    Location:
    KFC
    R u ok?
     
    Mal12 and Half Forward like this.

    (Log in to remove this ad.)

  12. Cdog71

    Cdog71 Debutant

    Richmond
    Other teams:
    Joined:
    Sep 17
    Posts:
    53
    I agree
    Ablett Jnr over the last ten years there where games he looked like an u18 kid playing against u14s not because he put bodies em, just shit loads better
     
  13. Cdog71

    Cdog71 Debutant

    Richmond
    Other teams:
    Joined:
    Sep 17
    Posts:
    53
    Out bodied
     
  14. blackcat

    blackcat Brownlow Medallist

    Richmond
    Other teams:
    Joined:
    Dec 03
    Posts:
    23,723
    Location:
    melbourne
    just like to give a comprehensive answer. I can distil it into about five words if you prefer, "I do not think Dusty will be GOAT". *asterisk is for the acronym and the seven other words.

    satisfied Xenthor (?), but let us leave the adjudication up to cannot innit...
     
    Half Forward likes this.
  15. JackOutback

    JackOutback Brownlow Medallist

    West Coast
    Other teams:
    Joined:
    Sep 11
    Posts:
    11,168
    Given his omission, people may be forgetting how good Chris Judd was.
     
    Xenthor likes this.
  16. blackcat

    blackcat Brownlow Medallist

    Richmond
    Other teams:
    Joined:
    Dec 03
    Posts:
    23,723
    Location:
    melbourne
    I reckon Judd and Daniel Kerr were better than the lot of the ones we have named, Dusty included, besides Buddy. Buddy GOAT imo
     
    JackOutback likes this.
  17. The Passenger

    The Passenger Mr. Mojo Risin'

    West Coast
    Other teams:
    Pittsburgh Penguins, Dallas Cowboys
    Joined:
    Mar 03
    Posts:
    28,299
    Location:
    The City of Light
    He's the best player in the league, but in terms of the legends of the game he's coming from a long way back. 1 very good season and 1 outstanding season. Guys like Carey, Matthews et al already had 3 or 4 outstanding seasons by his age and kept going.

    But he's got all the tools and enough time to be one of the dozens of players on those next line of footballers.

    Not out of the question he gets right amongst the big names, but they all probably had 8+ seasons in the top echelon of players. He's had probably 1.5 and at his age he's probably only gonna have enough time to pack in 5 seasons worth of top shelf footy. So it's gonna have to be some real top shelf football to get his name in amongst those heavyweights.
     
  18. blackcat

    blackcat Brownlow Medallist

    Richmond
    Other teams:
    Joined:
    Dec 03
    Posts:
    23,723
    Location:
    melbourne
    Carey would be six to 1. re: GOAT potentialseasons
     
  19. cannot

    cannot Norm Smith Medallist

    Richmond
    Other teams:
    Joined:
    Nov 16
    Posts:
    5,063
    Location:
    ^^ ""Flat World Champions".
    pre Osteitis pubis, yep

    Martin, touch wood, doesn't get injuries and has the durability of a truck
     
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2017
  20. Rance2Mewtwo

    Rance2Mewtwo All Australian

    Richmond
    Other teams:
    Joined:
    Jul 16
    Posts:
    893
    The thing about Dusty is he's so dominant in a non-statistical way too. He gets about 10-20% less possessions than Gary Ablett Jnr, but he makes up for it by being a force of nature.

    In a Grand Final I saw a Crows player elect not to engage him for a tackle purely because Dusty had his arm ready to give him the don't argue.

    How many other players intimidate the opposition into choosing not to tackle him in a Grand Final??
     
    Half Forward, blackcat and cannot like this.
  21. blackcat

    blackcat Brownlow Medallist

    Richmond
    Other teams:
    Joined:
    Dec 03
    Posts:
    23,723
    Location:
    melbourne
    like Dusty's arm is lex luther and his palm has a coating of kryptonite
     
    Half Forward likes this.
  22. Scanlens Man

    Scanlens Man Debutant

    GWS
    Other teams:
    Joined:
    Aug 17
    Posts:
    104
    Dusty is a beast, no doubt, and a great player, but GOAT? He'd have to come out of the blocks a bit faster would have thought

    He's had a great individual season, but he's not a freak like John Coleman was
     
  23. Scanlens Man

    Scanlens Man Debutant

    GWS
    Other teams:
    Joined:
    Aug 17
    Posts:
    104
    Agree he's not Ablett's equal, but he can do things that Ablett can't do, like out-muscle opponents and mark, or win those crucial 2 on ones you see him win.

    They're wearing the same shoes, Ablett's still just a bit shinier
     
  24. Lynch takes a mark

    Lynch takes a mark Premiership Player

    West Coast
    Other teams:
    Subiaco FC
    Joined:
    Nov 06
    Posts:
    3,492
    Location:
    Subiaco, Perth WA
    I don't get how Martin is able to casually wave an arm at the opposition and they fall over as he does a slight change of direction. I love when a player comes along and changes the way that people want to play the game.

    Definitely one of the best I've seen but then again I watched Judd live in that 04-06 period where the cameras were having trouble keeping up with him bursting out of congestion.
     
    Half Forward likes this.
  25. Ricmel

    Ricmel Premiership Player

    St Kilda
    Other teams:
    Joined:
    Jul 09
    Posts:
    4,193
    If you confine the conversation to GOAT "midfielder" and Dusty had another two or three seasons like this one then he would come into calculations. But there is a long line ahaed of him at the moment.

    I wouldn't even bother with converstaions of Carey vs Martin or Hart vs Martin. They make little sense, some people rate mids higher than KPs, some people prefer KPs. I am in the latter - even today I would take Daniher before Martin if I was starting a team.