What I find interesting in this thread is that people a referring to home and away season alot.In any sport the big name players and the stars stand up in big games and final series and prove there greatness and why there on the big $$$.
Opinion Can Dustin Martin be the GOAT? (Answer: no)
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No - I stand by the fact he played great footy early years at GC.
He won brownlow when his club finished 14th for heavens sake.
Each to there own and entitled to your opinion, but after that what happened.
Well then yes he was no longer the elite player from 2015 approx following the shoulder injury.
In my opinion his best years where the period 2007-2014. Left cats at end of 2010.
This might be the worst take in this thread and that is really saying something.
Claiming Ablett wasn't elite at the Suns is not an controversial opinion it is a flat out wrong opinion.
Surely he does have some regret. The money was very attractive but in hindsight he’d have to recognise the basket case that were (still are?) the Suns in his years there. He’ll have very few post-retirement sponsorship and promotional earnings coming in from his GCS days, and his post-retirement earnings from the Geelong region are possibly diminished because of that time spent up north.
Thing is he would have ended up Geelong’s highest paid player, and made a fortune in sponsorships and endorsements, which would’ve closed the gap on his total earnings in Queensland. We’ll assume he won a third flag and second Brownlow if he stayed, possibly one more of each as well. I reckon he would’ve been happier in Geelong, particularly over those last two of three years on the Gold Coast and he would’ve been closer to his family.
I did say he played some good footy , but your claiming he was elite at the Sun's the whole time your dreaming. Under Eade he looked disinterested and checked out at times and that is a known fact questions about him not wanting to play when he was fit , and even his captaincy.People make it sound like his time at Sun's was smooth sailing far from it.
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You are right they are probably 'down years' by his standards.
In those years Eade was with the Suns he averaged
2015: 22 disposals, 1.6 goals, 6 clearances
2016: 27 disposals, 0.7 goals, 7 clearances
2017: 33 disposals, 0.5 goals, 7 clearances
He was still playing elite footy and claiming he just played some good footy is just so far from what he produced it is not funny.
Noidnadroj
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Ablett played extraordinary and peerless footy from 2007-mid 2014. He was never the same player after his shoulder injury.
His stats might have been impressive, but the eye test can tell you he had lost some passion for the brutal contest. He was still very good, but was no longer a cut above the rest.
But his 7.5 years from 2007-mid 2014 was unrivaled in consistent quality.
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Sure no one is arguing he was no longer at his best but those numbers stack up to the best of almost everyone else career. He may have come back to the pack but he was still great.
Claiming he was not still playing elite footy in those 3 years when on the park is silly.
Noidnadroj
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Yes, it was excellent when on the park. But I would argue he was no longer the best player in the competition from 2015 onwards .... Danger, Fyfe, Dusty, Bontempelli, Cripps plus maybe a few others had gone past him. But no-one was in consistent touching distance from 2007-2014.
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Stan_Darsh72
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Because using Home and Away and Finals matches is how we do in in Australia
Using only "Finals" and "Big Games" is an American argument that has creeped in lately and most big games here are just marketed games played mostly by average sides with big followings.
Bob Skilton played only 1 final yet he is probably a top 5 midfielder to ever play Australian Rules football and a man who would walk into every clubs best 22 of all time, Is bob any less of a Matchwinner or a gun player?
It’s not “an American argument that has creeped in lately”. It’s a reflection of the time,money, effort and emotion invested in and by clubs, players, fans, media, sponsors and a whole bunch of others.
Noidnadroj
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On what measure have you deduced Martin has not been consistently elite... ? It’s simply not supported by any respected measurement of elite performance.
- Over the last 5-years, Danger and Dusty are the only players to finish top-20 in the coach’s votes every single season. Dusty is a second in total votes and miles ahead of 3rd. So the coach’s rate him the second best H&A performer in the entire comp over the last 5-years.
- In the last 5-years he has won 2 x B&F, finished 2nd twice and a 6th.
- He has the second most Brownlow votes behind Danger. He polls in the second most games behind Fyfe. So umpires rate him consistently elite.
- He has 4 x AA’s and was in the 40-man squad the other time. So independent ex-players rate him consistently elite.
So unless you are using some other measurement for being consistently elite, I think there’s genuinely only 1 x player you could rate over the last 5-years as being superior to Dusty in H&A and that’s Danger.
And Dusty’s football from 2010-15 was excellent also, but I’m happy to accept not elite.
But on every single available measurement of H&A performance, Dusty has been absolutely elite for 5-years now, arguable second only to Danger.
You got anyone else above him in the last 5-years... and if so anything to actually back-up your ‘opinion’ with facts and data.
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So if you're arguing the 5 best years of dusty are in fact bettered by another player over the same time period then he's not the ******* greatest of the past 5 years let alone all time then is he.
******* imbeciles.
Tiger Soze
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Interesting debate, probably never have an answer considering there is no consensus on GOAT previously, is it Matthews, Ablett Snr, Carey? The list and debate can go on and on.
What most can probably agree on is that Dusty produced the greatest individual season of football in memory (2017).
I don’t believe RFC has confirmed he is the GOAT at our club yet, but by the time Dusty hangs up the boots I reckon that will be confirmed.
What most can probably agree on is that Dusty produced the greatest individual season of football in memory (2017).
I don’t believe RFC has confirmed he is the GOAT at our club yet, but by the time Dusty hangs up the boots I reckon that will be confirmed.
Noidnadroj
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.... you’ve missed an important part of the debate from 20 pages back. This is purely H&A discussion, where Martin’s H&A bonafides were being debated. Respected measurements have him as clear 2nd behind Danger in H&A over the last 5-years.
It goes without saying his finals performances over the last 5-years have catapulted him well above Dangerfield in GOAT debates.
Welcome to the imbecile club you goose.
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McLeod's home and away record is actually not that good. You're forgetting the fact that he wasn't really considered one of the best players of the game besides a few years in the late 90s and early 2000s. He also played a lot of matches on the wing which IMO isn't as valuable as playing midfield and forward.
Harvey, he has a storied history but his possessions weren't as damaging. He has won two brownlows but I don't see him in the same company as many listed there.
Dangerfield lacks the kicking skills Martin has shown both in home and away and in finals. He plays well in Geelong where the team knows how to play the ground well.
Hird's record, injuries or not is patchy and inconsistent, compared to Martin's record of output which is more consistent.
Swan got a lot of the ball, but his kicking let him down. Arguing for him is merely arguing for stats.
Cousins? I dealt with this before. Less consistent than Martin in home and away and finals. Runs a lot but I think Martin had more influence on the game. Judd was better.
Voss and Buckley, again not the heights. Voss known more for his courage and leadership. I never considered him one of the greatest of midfielders when he played. Found the Voss, Hird and Buckley argument odd.
Ricciuto? I remember when people used to compare Martin to him. IMO Martin does what he did, just better. Able to play the forward and midfield game whereas Ricciuto couldn't do both. Lowkey not actually that damaging inside and only averaged less than 8 contested possessions in an era where many averaged more.
Selwood has been off the boil for a while and the last time I considered him one of the best in the game was around 2012-2014.
Pendlebury has been a really good consistent player but I don't think his career has ever hit the heights in terms of home and away or finals form that Martin has. One of those "15 is worth 30 of another player" types, well so is Martin, except Martin kicks goals as well.
Ablett jnr and Judd I can accept.
I rate Martin ahead of many as there aren't that many who average around 25 touches, 5 clearances, 5 inside 50s, 1 goal and 10 contested possessions per game. He passes the stats test and the eye test, as those stats also materialise as a player who has a well-rounded game of quantity and quality. A lot of the players you listed above don't have that. They're good midfielders, great even, but they lack the ability to balance midfield craft with forward craft. Martin's ability to kick goals from the midfield and score as a forward is invaluable.
I also think that while say Ablett jnr is a hard man to catch, many of the likes are either well and truly surpassed by Martin, or, at a stretch, if they're not, they will soon. Martin is fairly durable and I can see him playing at a fairly elite level for another five years.
I also think that no backman I've ever seen would be better than Martin. KPD is a reactive position where your role is clearly defined and you don't create as much as other positions. And I don't rate half back flankers that much. It's an easier role where you're purely negating, as opposed to the midfield and forwardline where you have to create. Key forwards? Been over this before, but I think the only ones who compare in the 25 years I've been watching are Carey, Lockett, Ablett and Franklin. IMO Franklin and Martin are on the same tier. Dunstall's peak was before my time.
Are you saying that his first four years with the suns where he won a Brownlow and was absolutely cruising to a third before getting injured, he was less of a player than he was at his Geelong best?
All the other players that get touted for this sort of tag have stood up in finals though. Have they got 3 norm smith medals to show for it? No. However I think you’ll find it incredibly hard to make a case that the likes of Ablett Jr and Sr, Matthews, Carey, Franklin, Voss etc didn’t lift in big games
Tiger_Of_Old
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Love the fact that we only have to win enough games to make finals then Dusty turns it on.
What a weapon to have.Just like the Careys & Buddys of the past.
Other sides have their H&A standouts that win them brownlows and various media awards but when the real serious stuff happens.
What a weapon to have.Just like the Careys & Buddys of the past.
Other sides have their H&A standouts that win them brownlows and various media awards but when the real serious stuff happens.
Noidnadroj
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History forgets the failures ..... Ablett senior played an amazing finals series in 1989, but never reached great heights outside of that. He played 4 x GF and was terrible in 2 (‘94 & ‘95) average in 1 (‘92) and amazing in one.
1989 finals : amazing finals series ... perhaps greatest ever.
1991 final: 6 touches : 0 goals
1992 finals: 4x finals and 16 goals (had a solid finals series and an average GF).
1994 finals: 4 x finals and 16 goals (in prelim and GF had a total of 10 touches, 3 marks and 4 goals ... had a nightmare GF with 1 mark and 1 goal)
1995 finals: 2 x finals and 4 goals (goalless in the GF)
1996 finals: 1 x final and 1 x goal
So outside of 1989, Ablett was an average to below average finals performer. We all tend to remember only 1989, or his mark on the final siren of the 1994 prelim. But unfortunately the reality is after 1989 he was very much a mere mortal in finals ... with some good ones, some average ones and some shockers. His finals performances were well below his H&A performances.
Then Carey had some ripper finals but some duds also:
1993: 1 x final and 0 x goals (6 touches and 1 mark)
1994: 2 x finals and 10 x goals (BOG in both finals)
1995: 3 x finals and 6 x goals (a shocker with 1 x goal in losing prelim)
1996: 3 x finals and 7 x goals (a reasonable GF with 22 touches and 1 x goal)
1997: 3 x finals and 11 x goals (BOG with 7 goals in QF.... 2 x average finals after that)
1998: 3 x finals and 7 x goals (BOG in QF, then below average with only 2 x goals total in PF and GF)
1999: 3 x finals and 11 x goals (BOG in QF, then good in PF and average in GF)
So Carey was much better overall in finals than Ablett Senior. But he still was very hit and miss, with some amazing games, some average games and some shockers.
Carey’s finals record is similar to his H&A record on average. Ablett’s is well below.
So the sands of time forget the shockers and only remember the highs of the greats of the past. I have Geelong friends from the 1989-1995 years I went to GF with constantly annoyed at their ‘guns’ inability to bring the goods in finals, Ablett, Brownless and Bairstow being their prime target of frustration.
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