Can Hawthorn succeed while ignoring the elite end of the draft? - Part 2

[HairyO]

Your list has holes everywhere.
You have 1 1st rounder ... and so does every other club.
That’s nowhere near enough with what needs to be done ...

Pick 2 and 18 are the same?

We also have pick 20 and 21. We have an injured pick 6 who will play later in the year. And Day is a gem who will return in a couple of months.

The real problem is Gunston. Lewis and Kosi need him taking the focus. Neither are #1 forwards yet but could be.

 

[Bradkli]

20 less inside 50s and lost by a goal. Lost clearances by 20 or 30.

Our bookends are not terrible. Our midfield is.

Our bookends are deplorable... they are the worst in the league... WAKE UP!!!

Back line: Hartigan, Hartley and Frost inj: DGB (yet to play a game)... Sicily doesn't count as he is not a key position.. Our four current key position defenders would not get a game for any other team currently

Forward line: Koschitzke, Lewis, Jeka, O'Brien.... Koschitzke was drafted as a defender but is being forced to play as our #1 key forward because we have no-one else...he has shown good signs, but as a long way to go... Lewis is a battler..has shown potential, but still has too many flaws in a game..often plays from behind, doesn't chase and often drops his head when things don't go his way... Jeka is 2-3 years off from playing consistent senior football and Tim O'Brien is arguably the worst player that will play 100 games...him still playing every week is EVERYTHING wrong with our club currently. Like our defenders, those 4 forwards would not get a game for just about any other team...

That list above is 30% of our team and the majority of them play every single week...

 

[HairyO]

Our bookends are deplorable... they are the worst in the league... WAKE UP!!!

Back line: Hartigan, Hartley and Frost inj: DGB (yet to play a game)... Sicily doesn't count as he is not a key position.. Our four current key position defenders would not get a game for any other team currently

Forward line: Koschitzke, Lewis, Jeka, O'Brien.... Koschitzke was drafted as a defender but is being forced to play as our #1 key forward because we have no-one else...he has shown good signs, but as a long way to go... Lewis is a battler..has shown potential, but still has too many flaws in a game..often plays from behind, doesn't chase and often drops his head when things don't go his way... Jeka is 2-3 years off from playing consistent senior football and Tim O'Brien is arguably the worst player that will play 100 games...him still playing every week is EVERYTHING wrong with our club currently. Like our defenders, those 4 forwards would not get a game for just about any other team...

That list above is 30% of our team and the majority of them play every single week...

Worst in the league yet every team we have played has struggled to get ahead of us for 3 quarters and only flogged us in a single quarter where we got trashed in the midfield.

We lose every game by 20+ clearances. We lose every game by 20+ inside 50s. That we arent losing every game by 10+ goals is because of our forward efficiency and our defence not crumbling.

 

[Cadillac]

Wingard and Impey could be playing huge roles at a dogs team who’s currently sitting on top of the ladder beating their old side on their home deck. Instead they lose to North in Tasmania lol.

 

[Tas]

Our bookends are deplorable... they are the worst in the league... WAKE UP!!!

Back line: Hartigan, Hartley and Frost inj: DGB (yet to play a game)... Sicily doesn't count as he is not a key position.. Our four current key position defenders would not get a game for any other team currently

Forward line: Koschitzke, Lewis, Jeka, O'Brien.... Koschitzke was drafted as a defender but is being forced to play as our #1 key forward because we have no-one else...he has shown good signs, but as a long way to go... Lewis is a battler..has shown potential, but still has too many flaws in a game..often plays from behind, doesn't chase and often drops his head when things don't go his way... Jeka is 2-3 years off from playing consistent senior football and Tim O'Brien is arguably the worst player that will play 100 games...him still playing every week is EVERYTHING wrong with our club currently. Like our defenders, those 4 forwards would not get a game for just about any other team...

That list above is 30% of our team and the majority of them play every single week...

I think you are being harsh on your club, I can understand the disappointment of being where you are atm but the club made decisions a while ago to push for success for as long as possible and traded a lot of first round picks to achieve that. In hindsight that wasn't a great call, but I think if you judge the Hawks list based on what they had access to it is in decent shape thanks to some good drafting and player development.

DGB is a great talent, shame the kid had a knee injury during the pre-season, but he is a super talent.
Scrimshaw is looking great, he was a top 10 pick that Gold Coast let go in a fire sale.

Gunston went down and Patton... is gone.

Lewis has only played 28 games, he is looking promising.
Koschitzke has only played 8 games, also looking promising.

Considering how many first round picks have been traded out the last decade, there is still a lot to like. Sicily will be back, Worpel hasn't had a great season but he is only 22, they can be a bit up and down at a young age especially if there is a lack of mature leadership around them. Day has only played 13 games and haven't really seen much of the 2020 crop to date which is understandable.

I think there is a lot to work with, it is probably not going to be the 2 year Kennett thing given how much the previous generation trading has denied them a lot of 23-25 year old top end talent, but Hawthorn of the last decade or so have been really good developers of footballers.

The midfield going forward is going to need a lot more work than the KPPs imo. I think they have a bunch of guys that will see them through the next 3 or 4 years but you don't really want to wait until they tap out before you do anything about because you can have an AA forward line and back line, but if you have the worst midfield it isn't going to matter.

 

[tonygeeks]

No..we have two seconds as we have pies second this year..we really need to get creative by packaging up picks or picks with a player to get another first..

We had the chance to trade Gunston last season, but didn’t. Hopefully we bite the bullet with either Tom Mitchell or Luke Breust end of this season...Gunston has a bad back injury, so he’s trade value is cooked. He will finish his career at us.

The other one is Chad Wingard...hopefully he requests a trade. I feel for him. As I said last night, he was a sold a lemon by Clarko. He’s should be in the prime of career, but is playing in a bottom 2 side, who will be bottom 4 for another 2-3 years at least..he deserves a chance at success.

If we can trade out 2 of the above, for second round picks (yes, to all our supporters, Tom Mitchell is not worth a first round pick) we would definitely be able to package something up....

We need to get creative!!

Mitchell, Wingard or Omera would be definitely useful players at other clubs like Freo for instance if Mundy retired or Cerra leaves but the problem is they are FA type players as far as age and salary but you would have to trade for them. I just can't see any clubs being that keen on doing it


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[HavUEvaSeenTheRain]

Mitchell, Wingard or Omera would be definitely useful players at other clubs like Freo for instance if Mundy retired or Cerra leaves but the problem is they are FA type players as far as age and salary but you would have to trade for them. I just can't see any clubs being that keen on doing it


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Wingard can win games so he has value to a top side. As you say with the other two it’s hard to see a top side really chasing that sort of player and they are too old for the bottom sides to bother with. Jaeger to Richmond is probably their best hope from the outside looking in with Cotchin and Edwards not having much time left in the game but it would be a borderline call.

 

[HairyO]

I think you are being harsh on your club

He wont have read any of this because he doesnt support Hawthorn.

I think the only question for him is whether 2008 was his worst year ever or 1989.

 

[mcgarnacle]

What Hawthorn shows once again is that players make the coach, not the other way around.

Clarkson is supposed to be one of the greatest AFL coaches of all time. In reality, Matthew Knights would've won 4 premierships with the same list Clarkson had at his disposal between 2008-2015.

Hawthorn have ****ed up in their recruiting, got the balance wrong in the years post the three-peat, plain and simple. A s**t list right now.

 

[STPer18]

Maybe Birchall, he's playing under an ex Hawthorn person. Hill and Frawley too. Smith on the other hand is playing for one of the worst performed coaches of all time (given the list he's had), in a jumper he surely hates. He must be dead inside. Remember you can't judge Smith's emotional state by his smile. He smiled as he was winning you folks a spot in a prelim with a missed shot at goal. He's a smiley kind of guy.

23 touches and a goal a week average for Geelong, must be absolutely hating his football at the minute.

 

[Red Bull]

Trading Wingard especially would be a somewhat difficult acknowledgment Hawks misread their position when originally getting him. Not sure they would want to do that so publicly

Agreed,
Admitting the “W” word would be impossible for Clarkson.
So that just leaves taking a solitary 1st rounder to the draft each year like every other club.
Nowhere near enough with the enormity of the task at hand ...

 

[Bradkli]

He wont have read any of this because he doesnt support Hawthorn.

I think the only question for him is whether 2008 was his worst year ever or 1989.

Yes... I forgot.. I am a troll and I am a Cats fan..I regularly post on the Cats board...

 

[threesixpio]

might need to brush up on the geography there ...



they sure do look happy ...

Three flags at a championship club and something to put in their super. Very happy

 

[HairyO]

23 touches and a goal a week average for Geelong, must be absolutely hating his football at the minute.

View attachment 1129009

Id say he would be wanting a flag. Which means Geelong winning finals.

 

[hk89]

23 touches and a goal a week average for Geelong, must be absolutely hating his football at the minute.
View attachment 1129009

Honeymoon period. He'll be joining these kind of scenes soon enough:

At least he'll not have a creepy ice addict consoling him, which is something I guess.

 

[hk89]

So that just leaves taking a solitary 1st rounder to the draft each year like every other club.
Nowhere near enough with the enormity of the task at hand ...

Again , I can see why a Carlton fan would think "a solitary 1st rounder each year is not enough".

"Hell we had bundles of first rounders, and we are still struggling with the enormity of the task, god help any other team who might try to rebuild.", said the Carlton fan.

 

[HavUEvaSeenTheRain]

Again , I can see why a Carlton fan would think "a solitary 1st rounder each year is not enough".

"Hell we had bundles of first rounders, and we are still struggling with the enormity of the task, god help any other team who might try to rebuild.", said the Carlton fan.

The problem is if you don’t you are relying on being the smartest people in the room when it comes to recruiting and it’s already clear Hawthorn aren’t on the back of what they have done over the last 5 years or so. I’m not sure if there is a list as poor as yours who have managed to rebuild without doing it.

 

[Red Bull]

Again , I can see why a Carlton fan would think "a solitary 1st rounder each year is not enough".

"Hell we had bundles of first rounders, and we are still struggling with the enormity of the task, god help any other team who might try to rebuild.", said the Carlton fan.

Thorp and Dowler ring a bell ?
Every club has misses so when you are coming from the level hawthorn find themselves at its just common sense that multiple quality draft picks will be needed ...

 

[hk89]

Thorp and Dowler ring a bell ?

Yes, I've mentioned them many times in this thread.

Every club has misses so when you are coming from the level hawthorn find themselves at its just common sense that multiple quality draft picks will be needed ...

Of course, but you've heard of round 2 , 3 and 4 in the draft right? Sure, everyone misses with early picks from time to time, but there are also some later round hits to make up for them. Finishing bottom and getting early picks in round 1 also means you've got slightly better chances in all rounds due to your subsequent round picks also being early.

Again, just because Carlton hasn't been able to build a top 4 list with many many first rounders doesn't many other teams that spend some time down the bottom can't. There are a few examples at the moment of teams that have managed it. If we need to spend a couple of extra years on the path to do so due to our recent trade shenanigans, then so be it, but you should try to be a little less Carlton centric on assessing how this path usually goes.

 

[La Dispute]

Again , I can see why a Carlton fan would think "a solitary 1st rounder each year is not enough".

"Hell we had bundles of first rounders, and we are still struggling with the enormity of the task, god help any other team who might try to rebuild.", said the Carlton fan.

Need to have a few bites at the cherry when your list is in as bad shape as the Hawkes. Don’t have any current elite players, and no current candidates as future elites.

 

[Red Bull]

Yes, I've mentioned them many times in this thread.



Of course, but you've heard of round 2 , 3 and 4 in the draft right? Sure, everyone misses with early picks from time to time, but there are also some later round hits to make up for them. Finishing bottom and getting early picks in round 1 also means you've got slightly better chances in all rounds due to your subsequent round picks also being early.

Again, just because Carlton hasn't been able to build a top 4 list with many many first rounders doesn't many other teams that spend some time down the bottom can't. There are a few examples at the moment of teams that have managed it. If we need to spend a couple of extra years on the path to do so due to our recent trade shenanigans, then so be it, but you should try to be a little less Carlton centric on assessing how this path usually goes.

Good luck with the rebuild using only your mandatory picks ...

 

[hk89]

Good luck with the rebuild using only your mandatory picks ...

And good luck with your ongoing 20 year rebuild now that you've elevated yourself out of the bottom 4 but appear to be older than many but still stuck in mid-table mode.

 

[threesixpio]

History F.C.

Fine talk from a supporter of a team without a flag THIS century

 

[threesixpio]

What Hawthorn shows once again is that players make the coach, not the other way around.

Clarkson is supposed to be one of the greatest AFL coaches of all time. In reality, Matthew Knights would've won 4 premierships with the same list Clarkson had at his disposal between 2008-2015.

Hawthorn have f’ed up in their recruiting, got the balance wrong in the years post the three-peat, plain and simple. A sh*t list right now.

Ha ha. Used to be we had an ok list and a great coach during the 3peat years.

Don’t change BF

 

[hk89]

Need to have a few bites at the cherry when your list is in as bad shape as the Hawkes.

Well 3 this year in the top 25 if Pies's don't improve, including one in the top 3 should be a good start then.

Don’t have any current elite players, and no current candidates as future elites.

Wrong, and wrong.