Can Hawthorn succeed while ignoring the elite end of the draft? - Part 2

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The Cryptkeeper

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I said Melbourne aren't looking for deals. I never said they wouldn't listen to calls, you've made that up. I never said they were being inactive, you've made that up.

Hawthorn appear to be actively contacting clubs, or "aggressively working the floor".

So either you've completely misread, and therefore misunderstood, what I've written, or you're arguing the exact same thing.

Hawthorn appear to be pursuing means to improve their draft hand, by "aggressively working the floor", and offering up some of their higher value senior players in trade discussions, which is why the names of literally every single one of their higher value senior players has been floating around in the media the last week.

That's very different to a Melbourne largely sitting back and not doing a whole lot, they're certainly not aggressively working the floor, as you yourself said.

So really, are you just arguing to be argumentative at this point? Do you think Hawthorn aren't "aggressively working the floor"? Do you think Melbourne are "aggressively working the floor"?
Of course Melbourne are looking for deals. They've already traded some picks. Only a twit thinks that Melbourne have gone in with the mindset that all their players are off limits. If they have, then their time at the top will be very short.

I repeat, you are the one who said Melbourne are not looking for deals. And you did it twice.

Hilarious.
 

GWT6

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Logic not your strong suit champ?

I'm sure Lewis was told he wasn't wanted and was then offered a one year deal straight afterwards.

The sooner school goes back the better.

“It was the Wednesday after (the best and fairest) I got a text message from Clarko saying, ‘Hey, are you around this afternoon for a chat?’” Lewis said.

“And automatically you go for the negatives. You know (you ask) ‘what could it be?’

“I’m not that sort of person to think ‘oh he’s coming around to give me a pat on the back and say that you’re captain next year’. That’s not how I think.

“I’ve been involved with football clubs for so long now that you understand when he (the coach) wants to come around to your house, it’s not for a cup of coffee and a piece of cake.”

Lewis was unsure why but his negative thoughts — which proved correct — headed towards a possible trade.

“I don’t know why I thought this, but it was potentially going somewhere else, and I spent all day (before Clarkson arrived) going through certain scenarios,” he said.

“(Like) ‘oh gee who do I know from other clubs?’ if that happens to be the case, so I’d played it over in my head for a good five or six hours.

“So when he came around that was exactly the conversation we had.”

.....
.....
...

After Mitchell announced he was joining the Eagles, the Hawks tried to sway Lewis to stay.

“... we also gave Hawthorn the chance to extend my contract for another year but then they still couldn’t for whatever reason,” he said.

“But I think once Mitch left, I probably didn’t feel as guilty if I was to leave as well.

“It wasn’t as if I was opting out of a contract, I never went to the club — they came to me — so that’s sort of how I justified it to myself.”
 

owen87

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Of course Melbourne are looking for deals. They've already traded some picks. Only a twit thinks that Melbourne have gone in with the mindset that all their players are off limits. If they have, then their time at the top will be very short.

I repeat, you are the one who said Melbourne are not looking for deals. And you did it twice.

Hilarious,
So you're being disingenuous, trying to argue semantics whilst agreeing with exactly what I was saying.

Hawthorn appear to be aggressively working the floor, Melbourne are not.

You've agreed with this yourself, and have now descended to the level of semantics to try to create an argument when you actually agree with my position, that the two clubs are taking very different approaches.

You've already wasted a solid half a page worth of posts on your semantics, how much more do you plan on wasting while agreeing with the premise of my comments?
 

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Jack Green

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I think if we took a short term view (much like Saints did with their trades over recent seasons), we could probably make finals in a year or 2 given how many of the top 10 sides we did ok against (and yes our worst was still deplorable).

However I think targeting that would be a mistake, as I don't think we can make top 4 without hitting the draft for another couple of years. The cattle are just not there for that. So assuming we absolutely nail the draft this year and next year, if everything else goes right, and we keep our older players on the park long enough, probably 4 years isn't completely out of the question. As I say, that needs a lot to go right, and I could understand if others were dubious.

If anything I think we are ahead of Saints on our journey right now. Saints topped up recently, and it hasn't worked, but it is very difficult to change tact quickly once you've invested in a strategy (something Hawthorn fans can tell you about post 2016). I can see Saints struggle to make their current gambles work for another couple of years, and then by the time they realise it can't we'll have developed past them. Basically rebuilding is really hard work, which is why a team should never do it until they've exhaust all other avenues. We are there now, and the best Hawthorn fans can hope is that we are one of the rare successful rebuilds instead of this being the first of several failures, which seems to be more the norm once you find yourself at this end of the ladder.
Reasonable answer - yep, I'm dubious - don't see a 4 year timeline personally as you have only just started scratching the rebuild. Strongly suspect it will be many years middling as many experts have alluded to. Having said that, a Melbourne fan in the mid 60's, Richmond early 80's , Hawthorn early 90's or Brisbane Lions mid 2000's would have felt no different. Why would they??
For starting reference a young Franklin and Roughead from 18 year old top 10 draft picks 2005 to 21 year old's in 2008 kicking 180 goals between them within4 seasons - just don't see it with Lewis. Kosi or Jeka but time will tell. :think: :think:
Appreciate the response - but if history repeats itself , it is going to be a long road back for the Hawks .
Comments on the Saints - belongs elsewhere but fair call. In the middle band of sides not good enough to compete and not bad enough to be bottom 4-6 👍
 

The Cryptkeeper

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“It was the Wednesday after (the best and fairest) I got a text message from Clarko saying, ‘Hey, are you around this afternoon for a chat?’” Lewis said.

“And automatically you go for the negatives. You know (you ask) ‘what could it be?’

“I’m not that sort of person to think ‘oh he’s coming around to give me a pat on the back and say that you’re captain next year’. That’s not how I think.

“I’ve been involved with football clubs for so long now that you understand when he (the coach) wants to come around to your house, it’s not for a cup of coffee and a piece of cake.”

Lewis was unsure why but his negative thoughts — which proved correct — headed towards a possible trade.

“I don’t know why I thought this, but it was potentially going somewhere else, and I spent all day (before Clarkson arrived) going through certain scenarios,” he said.

“(Like) ‘oh gee who do I know from other clubs?’ if that happens to be the case, so I’d played it over in my head for a good five or six hours.

“So when he came around that was exactly the conversation we had.”

.....
.....
...

After Mitchell announced he was joining the Eagles, the Hawks tried to sway Lewis to stay.

“... we also gave Hawthorn the chance to extend my contract for another year but then they still couldn’t for whatever reason,” he said.

“But I think once Mitch left, I probably didn’t feel as guilty if I was to leave as well.

“It wasn’t as if I was opting out of a contract, I never went to the club — they came to me — so that’s sort of how I justified it to myself.”
You are completely misunderstanding what Lewis is saying. He was offered a year. He wanted longer. I have twice told you Hawthorn's policy regarding over 30's.

He was not forced out as you claim. He chose to leave.
 

The Cryptkeeper

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So you're being disingenuous, trying to argue semantics whilst agreeing with exactly what I was saying.

Hawthorn appear to be aggressively working the floor, Melbourne are not.

You've agreed with this yourself, and have now descended to the level of semantics to try to create an argument when you actually agree with my position, that the two clubs are taking very different approaches.

You've already wasted a solid half a page worth of posts on your semantics, how much more do you plan on wasting while agreeing with the premise of my comments?
I disagree vehemently with what you are saying. You said Melbourne was not dealing. Twice. They are. Fact.

You're thick. I'm moving on.

EVERY SINGLE TEAM IS DEALING.

It's trade week FFS.
 

The Cryptkeeper

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So you're being disingenuous, trying to argue semantics whilst agreeing with exactly what I was saying.

Hawthorn appear to be aggressively working the floor, Melbourne are not.

You've agreed with this yourself, and have now descended to the level of semantics to try to create an argument when you actually agree with my position, that the two clubs are taking very different approaches.

You've already wasted a solid half a page worth of posts on your semantics, how much more do you plan on wasting while agreeing with the premise of my comments?
Me - dude every team is shopping for deals.

You - no they're not.

YOU ARE WRONG. Every team is shopping for deals. Aggressively or less so, it makes no difference. Every team is shopping for deals otherwise they wouldn't attend trade week.

See, we disagree. :rolleyes:
 

owen87

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I disagree vehemently with what you are saying. You said Melbourne was not dealing. Twice. They are. Fact.

You're thick. I'm moving on.

EVERY SINGLE TEAM IS DEALING.

It's trade week FFS.
No. You're arguing semantics.

It's quite clear what the premise of what I was saying was. You've devolved to semantics to try to create an argument when you've already agreed with the premise.

But I'm glad you've realised you're wasting everyone else's time trying to create an argument when you're agreeing with what I'm saying, and you've simply fixated on one line that you've misinterpreted.
 

The Cryptkeeper

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No. You're arguing semantics.

It's quite clear what the premise of what I was saying was. You've devolved to semantics to try to create an argument when you've already agreed with the premise.

But I'm glad you've realised you're wasting everyone else's time trying to create an argument when you're agreeing with what I'm saying, and you've simply fixated on one line that you've misinterpreted.
I do not agree with what you are saying troll. There was no premise, you stated twice that one club was not dealing in trade week.

Onto ignore you go. My time is too precious.
 

hk89

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Reasonable answer - yep, I'm dubious - don't see a 4 year timeline personally as you have only just started scratching the rebuild. Strongly suspect it will be many years middling as many experts have alluded to. Having said that, a Melbourne fan in the mid 60's, Richmond early 80's , Hawthorn early 90's or Brisbane Lions mid 2000's would have felt no different. Why would they??


For starting reference a young Franklin and Roughead from 18 year old top 10 draft picks 2005 to 21 year old's in 2008 kicking 180 goals between them within 4 seasons
Yeah, but conversely how many people thought we were going to win 4 flags over the next 10 years when they looked at our list in 2004? We didn't get multiple priority picks just because we tanked, we were truly awful. We were fairly ordinary in 2009 and 2010 too. Have a look at our 2004 season (when we already had the likes of Hodge and Mitchell on the list, and a few years under their belt), some seriously big losses. Way worse than what we suffered this year. 4 years later we had a flag.

just don't see it with Lewis. Kosi or Jeka but time will tell. :think: :think:
Yeah, I'd not be surprised if only 1 or perhaps even none of those ends up being a star. There is a reason I think we still need to nail a couple of drafts (at least).

Appreciate the response - but if history repeats itself , it is going to be a long road back for the Hawks .
Of course. I've put forward a timeline I think is possible if everything goes right. Back in 2004 everything did go right, but we also messed up some picks in the following drafts. If we get a more even draft performance we don't need to duplicate 2004 to be a force. The other thing to keep in mind is that comparing us now to a team that won 4 flags is setting up a pretty harsh benchmark. I'd be happy with just one more at this stage :) We don't need to build a 3-peating quality list to compete. Things rarely go how you want them though, so the most likely we end up doing what most rebuilds do - fail to win a flag, and start again. I gave an optimistic best case scenario, and I agree that isn't the most likely outcome, but I do think it is possible.

Comments on the Saints - belongs elsewhere but fair call. In the middle band of sides not good enough to compete and not bad enough to be bottom 4-6 👍
Yes, thought they were worth mentioning as that is what we are risking now if we spring back up too quickly (Clarko's coaching triumphs in the latter part of the year were definitely a double edged sword, has hopefully kept some confidence in the group, but at the cost of slipping a few spots in the draft). I think saints were right to roll the dice, but some of the gambles haven't paid off (at least not yet), a couple of high cost trades too many perhaps that haven't produced enough to be worth the cost. Not dissimilar to our attempts to stay relevant after 2006, saints attempts to jump into relevance haven't quite worked. As mentioned I think both clubs made choices that made sense at the time they were making them, but again, not everything went right...
 

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hawkman

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Still waiting on the “fire sale” that was supposed to happen. :think:
The media have played this perfectly. For the last week there has been a fire sale at Hawthorn, they will desperate for any picks for these players what a disaster for the club. When nothing happens, Hawthorn made a mess of the trade period by not trading these players, what a disaster for the club
 

hk89

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Nope. Never said this. You misinterpreted what was written.
You did say that not every club is "shopping for deals", seems it is you playing the semantic game by now claiming this shouldn't be interpreted as some clubs "not dealing in trade week.", but only you knew what you really meant. I'm just saying I read it the same way Cryptkeeper did.
 

owen87

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You did say that not every club is "shopping for deals", seems it is you playing the semantic game by now claiming this shouldn't be interpreted as some clubs "not dealing in trade week.", but only you knew what you really meant. I'm just saying I read it the same way Cryptkeeper did.
It was pretty clear given my previous commentary that the premise was the Hawthorn were engaging in aggressively pursuing deals to move on players with reasonable - good value to substantially improve their draft hand.

That is quite distinct from Melbourne, who are not doing that.

At no point did I say Melbourne aren't open to deals, or aren't participating in trade week. And until he misinterpreted that comment, Cryptkeeper was in agreeance with the premise of what I was saying.
 

Jack Green

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1) I have no idea what the conversation was regarding the captaincy. Nor do you. What is known is that Lewis wanted a 3 year contract. I have been over this with you. Are your eyes pained on or are you incapable of clear thought? HAWTHORN DOES NOT OFFER MORE THAN ONE YEAR DEALS TO PLAYERS OVER 30. Get that through your rather thick scone mate because everything beyond that from Lewis's perspective is moot. He wanted 3 years. We were not giving it to him. Hence he looked at other options and found one. Good for him but it simply did not happen as you suggest.

2) That is not what was suggested at all. Mitchell wanted to coach so he and Clarkson decided to explore this. It did not happen the way you'd like to think or the way you'd have us all believe. Clarkson came to Mitchell after speaking with Simpson with the West Coast option..."park or explore" he gave Mitchell the option. Mitchell spoke with his wife and they decided to explore it. If he had said "park" then he signs another year at Hawthorn. That is how it happened. You are fabricating another scenario to suit your narrative. As I assume you won't be reading Mitchell's autobiography, Google is your friend. Try it sometime. It will change your life.

As to the main conversation, Hawthorn is undergoing a rebuild. I doubt you'll find one Hawthorn supporter who couldn't see this coming or is unaccepting of the situation. We pretty much bossed this competition for a decade. This is our penance. We have plenty of DVD's in the collection that will remind us of why we are where we currently are.

What we won't cop though, are the feeble of mind who want to make it some sort of conspiracy that Hawthorn treats it's players like crap. That is the game you are playing and you are getting called out on your bullshit.

Over and out.
" I doubt you'll find one Hawthorn supporter who couldn't see this coming" The Cryptkeeper you obviously didn't follow the 'Will Clarkson add a 5 the premiership by 2022" thread on the Hawthorn site. :p There would be some very red faced Hawthorn Bigfooty supporters , if I posted some of their responses to this question circa 2018 - 20 .
 

GWT6

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You are completely misunderstanding what Lewis is saying. He was offered a year. He wanted longer. I have twice told you Hawthorn's policy regarding over 30's.

He was not forced out as you claim. He chose to leave.
I just can not understand the type of person who goes online and posts stuff that is obviously false in response to facts being presented. It's like the Trump or One Nation supporters, you present facts and actual quotes from the person involved and they say "no that didn't happen". I just don't get it.
 

hk89

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At no point did I say Melbourne aren't open to deals, or aren't participating in trade week.
So given none of these aggressively pursued deals has actually come to light, would you concede that perhaps they are largely the invention of the media, and in fact Hawthorn are doing exactly what Melbourne are doing? i.e. they're open to deals, and participating in trade week, and once the 'mayo' as you describe it is applied then "open to deals" becomes "desperately shopping players" pretty quickly.
 

GWT6

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So given none of these aggressively pursued deals has actually come to light, would you concede that perhaps they are largely the invention of the media, and in fact Hawthorn are doing exactly what Melbourne are doing? i.e. they're open to deals, and participating in trade week, and once the 'mayo' as you describe it is applied then "open to deals" becomes "desperately shopping players" pretty quickly.
Either that, or other clubs didn't want to take on Hawthorn's bad contracts.
 

The Cryptkeeper

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I just can not understand the type of person who goes online and posts stuff that is obviously false in response to facts being presented. It's like the Trump or One Nation supporters, you present facts and actual quotes from the person involved and they say "no that didn't happen". I just don't get it.
Reading and comprehension aren't your strong suits.

Have a nice life. I'm done with you. Onto ignore with your mate.
 

hk89

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I think it's pretty clear given the amount of smoke, Hawthorn aren't doing what Melbourne are doing. Mayo or no mayo.
Can you go into more detail on what this "smoke" is? Are you of the thought that there are not some segments of the footy media who literally make sh*t up to get people interested, and that everything they say must have some basis in reality, albeit with differing degrees of 'mayo'?

You seem to think you can see through the smoke to get a "pretty clear" view. Care to outline specifically what Hawthorn have been doing in regards to:
1) Wingard
2) Mitchell
3) JOM

Be as specific as you can given you seem to think things are 'pretty clear'.
 

owen87

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Can you go into more detail on what this "smoke" is? Are you of the thought that there are not some segments of the footy media who literally make sh*t up to get people interested, and that everything they say must have some basis in reality, albeit with differing degrees of 'mayo'?

You seem to think you can see through the smoke to get a "pretty clear" view. Care to outline specifically what Hawthorn have been doing in regards to:
1) Wingard
2) Mitchell
3) JOM

Be as specific as you can given you seem to think things are 'pretty clear'.
You're asking for specifics to obfuscate.

The smoke is that these names have all been bandied about. Which suggests that there's at least some element of truth to Hawthorn actively testing the market for some or all of their more senior players that have potential trade value.
 

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