Can Hawthorn succeed while ignoring the elite end of the draft? - Part 2

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Jack Green

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Feb 14, 2018
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The problem with Kennett is he has a limited grasp on football
Kudos to whoever at hawthorn has explained to him that things are cyclical and you have to accept that
Interesting. His aims statements changed significantly over the past 12 months. I'm not sure if someone at the club got in his ear , or the penny finally dropped for him. I put his forecasts down to arrogance , not ignorance but you might be right. :thumbsu:
 

Yardie

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Feb 6, 2004
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This is a bit of a myth.

None of the moves from 2016 onward had any impact on a potential 4 peat. That dream died with the Semi Final loss to the Bulldogs. Or in 2012 if you want to look at it that way.

2015 off season moves were Suckling left as a free agent, Anderson traded for North for the pick used on Burton (and some other swaps), Lake and Hale retired, a couple of no names delisted. Not really a Last Dance type deal and no moves of consequence for the short term.

The 2016 moves (Mitchell, O'Meara, Vickery, Henderson) coincided with Brad Hill wanting to return to WA and Jordan Lewis and Sam Mitchell being given away for peanuts.

The timeline of the whole thing was... interesting.
I think everyone forgets and underestimates the impact of losing Roughead to cancer for the 2016 season had on our ability to fourpeat.
 

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WilloTree

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He was a superstar to start his career so he got there. He was a star late in the year.
I've lost count of the number of times a young player is overhyped too early.

Don't get me wrong, The Chad was a good player - calved out a really nice career.

He's in that bracket with the Chris Masten, Danyl Pearce, Heath Scottland types. No shame in that. They all had wonderful careers.
 

Blackhawk42

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I've lost count of the number of times a young player is overhyped too early.

Don't get me wrong, The Chad was a good player - calved out a really nice career.

He's in that bracket with the Chris Masten, Danyl Pearce, Heath Scottland types. No shame in that. They all had wonderful careers.

Come on mate. It's a nice, obscure group you've selected as an example, but let's not be ridiculous.

At the end of his career Chad will still have more All Australians, more goals, likely more games and Brownlow votes and an immensely better highlight reel than those 3 players.

I'd also like to point out that I didn't want us to sell the farm for him when we did and I wouldn't have been disappointed had he moved on this past trade period. Not my favourite or least favourite player at Hawthorn. But your comparison doesn't hold up.
 

Scotland

TheBrownDog
May 5, 2006
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I've never seen the Chad compared to Chris Masten before. I love Bigfooty.
 

Scotland

TheBrownDog
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Chris Masten played over 200 games and has a Premiership medal on his shelf. Underrated player.

Hale, Stratton, Shiels, Puopolo (almost) all have 200 games and 3 medals.

It was a silly trade at the time, but Wingard went for a (late) first and second round pick and a good young player after a couple of average seasons. If you'd tried to get him anywhere 2013-16 you would've paid a king's ransom.

With due respect to Masten and those guys above they were solid contributors for their teams but every team has players of their calibre. I'd be surprised if anyone would have paid a pick inside 25 for Masten at any stage in his career.
 

Jack Green

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Hale, Stratton, Shiels, Puopolo (almost) all have 200 games and 3 medals.

It was a silly trade at the time, but Wingard went for a (late) first and second round pick and a good young player after a couple of average seasons. If you'd tried to get him anywhere 2013-16 you would've paid a king's ransom.

With due respect to Masten and those guys above they were solid contributors for their teams but every team has players of their calibre. I'd be surprised if anyone would have paid a pick inside 25 for Masten at any stage in his career.
Yep, premiership player on the cv make them a better player than others ? Poppy a classic example of a role player in a great side.
Bit polarising Wingard. Very good player- don't think any Hawk supporter would claim they didn't pay overs, but as has been mentioned , the people who made the call have now moved on.
 

Psicosis

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Out of interest ,how many gun players do Hawthorn have on their current list, Dom.?
Not counting potential to be guns , or guns if no injury concerns- but players who are elite gun players all 18 clubs would love to have??

Better question would be how many gun potential players does Dommy project Hawthorn to have on their list.

Likely answer = 27
 

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Scotland

TheBrownDog
May 5, 2006
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Wingard has plateaued from around 2016 onward. He's a good player, but not what people thought he would be after 2 x AA selections in his first 4 years.
 

Dominic03

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Out of interest ,how many gun players do Hawthorn have on their current list, Dom.?
Not counting potential to be guns , or guns if no injury concerns- but players who are elite gun players all 18 clubs would love to have??
Good question, Wingers is a gun (no injury concerns) is an interesting thing because if he's injured he misses games, but he's always able to do something, midfield or forward. Might be alone in this but i've been super happy with him.

Titch obviously, Sicily and some older blokes in Breust and maybe Gunners.

Alot of potential guns talent is most def there. But alot of the late 20s very early 30s players who've shown they are guns are those.

I'd also add Dimma to that aswell.
 

Dominic03

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Wingard has plateaued from around 2016 onward. He's a good player, but not what people thought he would be after 2 x AA selections in his first 4 years.
His late season form was as good as anyone, think his averages at one stage were 1-2 goals a game, 30 touches with a good mix with contested possies and his clearances were also 5+ to go with 7-8 score involvements and 1-2 goal assists a game.
 

H00t

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Wingard has plateaued from around 2016 onward. He's a good player, but not what people thought he would be after 2 x AA selections in his first 4 years.
Even if he had only continued on his form from 2013-2015 he’d have had one hell of a career. But had he improved the sky was the limit.

Unfortunately injuries have affected him and his form has waned and we now only get to see short glimpses of his immense talent.
 

matey

Premiership Player
Oct 5, 2004
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Only a couple of years ago our list age/profile was similar to Geelong’s. A quick transition/reset of a list under the current equalisation/drafting system makes it difficult. However other important factors such as identifying talent and developing them once they arrive at the club are just as important. Only time will tell but very happy and optimistic with the clubs direction.
 
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Jack Green

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Only a couple of years ago our list age/profile was similar to Geelong’s. A quick transition/reset of a list under the current equalisation/drafting system makes it difficult. However other important factors such as identifying talent and developing them once they arrive at the club are just as important. Only time will tell but very happy and optimistic with the clubs direction.
4 points made and I agree with all.[ Although your 3rd point on talent and development IMO is what will make this rebuild a slow burn compared to your last] And from an outsiders point of view ,you would be far happier and optimistic about the direction your club is moving in now. I think the difference is the timeframe between other supporters like myself, and Hawk supporters .

Personally I have the Hawks bottom 6 in 2022 and in the bottom half of the ladder and so not playing finals for the next 3 years . And of course that's on top of missing finals the last 3 years under Clarkson. And I have detailed reasons and past precedents of why this will be the case. Can Hawthorn succeed while ignoring the elite end of the draft? Well. Daniel Howe is the only under 40 drafted player from 2011-2018 still on your list .

I suppose my forecasts [or other fans viewpoints like mine]are not what you wan t to hear , believe or hope to happen though are they ?
We probably just all need to sit back over the next 9 months[ at least] to see who is proven right or wrong. :thumbsu:
 

hawkman

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4 points made and I agree with all.[ Although your 3rd point on talent and development IMO is what will make this rebuild a slow burn compared to your last] And from an outsiders point of view ,you would be far happier and optimistic about the direction your club is moving in now. I think the difference is the timeframe between other supporters like myself, and Hawk supporters .

Personally I have the Hawks bottom 6 in 2022 and in the bottom half of the ladder and so not playing finals for the next 3 years . And of course that's on top of missing finals the last 3 years under Clarkson. And I have detailed reasons and past precedents of why this will be the case. Can Hawthorn succeed while ignoring the elite end of the draft? Well. Daniel Howe is the only under 40 drafted player from 2011-2018 still on your list .

I suppose my forecasts [or other fans viewpoints like mine]are not what you wan t to hear , believe or hope to happen though are they ?
We probably just all need to sit back over the next 9 months[ at least] to see who is proven right or wrong. :thumbsu:
You have said your prediction probably 30 times in this thread
 

killerspud

Club Legend
Aug 23, 2009
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4 points made and I agree with all.[ Although your 3rd point on talent and development IMO is what will make this rebuild a slow burn compared to your last] And from an outsiders point of view ,you would be far happier and optimistic about the direction your club is moving in now. I think the difference is the timeframe between other supporters like myself, and Hawk supporters .

Personally I have the Hawks bottom 6 in 2022 and in the bottom half of the ladder and so not playing finals for the next 3 years . And of course that's on top of missing finals the last 3 years under Clarkson. And I have detailed reasons and past precedents of why this will be the case. Can Hawthorn succeed while ignoring the elite end of the draft? Well. Daniel Howe is the only under 40 drafted player from 2011-2018 still on your list .

I suppose my forecasts [or other fans viewpoints like mine]are not what you wan t to hear , believe or hope to happen though are they ?
We probably just all need to sit back over the next 9 months[ at least] to see who is proven right or wrong. :thumbsu:

I'll back the most successful club in the last 50 years to get back on track sooner than some big footy numpty has us. Given that you haven't won a flag in nearly forever you might want to turn that super sharp football brain of yours back towards the ongoing failings of your own club.
 

Jack Green

All Australian
Feb 14, 2018
692
559
AFL Club
St Kilda
I'll back the most successful club in the last 50 years to get back on track sooner than some big footy numpty has us. Given that you haven't won a flag in nearly forever you might want to turn that super sharp football brain of yours back towards the ongoing failings of your own club.
I'm mid 50's and hopeful I'll see a Saints flag before I shuffle off this mortal coil. But certainly have no misunderstanding that I unfortunately may not.
Big footy numpty :p I like that .

However, would you be more receptive if the information came from your your own backyard??? Even from 2 of your former champions who played and were finishing their careers at ends of your dynasties?
Gary Buckenara - 'development of players progress will play a big part in how long the Hawks are in the bottom half of the AFL ladder , but I expect it will be at least 5 years."
Jordan Lewis It'll be a long time before the club can consistently contend again, having taken the wrong path in a fork in the road."

Their opinions are the same as mine, but would you give them greater credibilty as they are commenting on an organisation they love.:think:
 

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