Can Hawthorn succeed while ignoring the elite end of the draft? - Part 2

Remove this Banner Ad

killerspud

Club Legend
Aug 23, 2009
2,954
6,553
AFL Club
Hawthorn
Yep, premiership player on the cv make them a better player than others ? Poppy a classic example of a role player in a great side.
Bit polarising Wingard. Very good player- don't think any Hawk supporter would claim they didn't pay overs, but as has been mentioned , the people who made the call have now moved on.

The price for Wingard was basically the pick for Duursma and Ryan Burton. Not as hugely overs as you make out.
 

Jack Green

All Australian
Feb 14, 2018
692
559
AFL Club
St Kilda
The price for Wingard was basically the pick for Duursma and Ryan Burton. Not as hugely overs as you make out.
In rebuild stage your not having a 28 year old Wingard over a 21 year old Duursma and 24 year old Burton though are you?
What do you reckon Mitchell would rather?
 

killerspud

Club Legend
Aug 23, 2009
2,954
6,553
AFL Club
Hawthorn
I'm mid 50's and hopeful I'll see a Saints flag before I shuffle off this mortal coil. But certainly have no misunderstanding that I unfortunately may not.
Big footy numpty :p I like that .

However, would you be more receptive if the information came from your your own backyard??? Even from 2 of your former champions who played and were finishing their careers at ends of your dynasties?
Gary Buckenara - 'development of players progress will play a big part in how long the Hawks are in the bottom half of the AFL ladder , but I expect it will be at least 5 years."
Jordan Lewis It'll be a long time before the club can consistently contend again, having taken the wrong path in a fork in the road."

Their opinions are the same as mine, but would you give them greater credibilty as they are commenting on an organisation they love.:think:

You do realise that two of our better players were out for the season last year. And both capable of key position roles. On top of that our two brightest young stars were missing injured for much of the season as was our top 5 pick in the draft. With all that we flattened one of the grand finalists and drew with the other as well as a beating several well credentialed teams above us. Yeah the future isn't as bleak as you have spent entire threads trying to make out it is. We have a bright young coach who has learned from the best. His got his own new crew of assistant coaches including one of the greatest midfielders to play the game Robert Harvey you might have heard of him. Another 5 young draft picks all pretty well credentialed. I worked in the football media and know that ex players say stuff because the media wants a story. Most of what is said is sh*t (exhibit A Kane Cornes) to get a rile up for 24 hours before they say the next bit of sh*t to justify their existence. That doesn't change the fact the Bucky and Jordy and legends of the club and collectively have 8 times the number of flags that your entire club does. Hope you are well and happy
 

Log in to remove this ad.

matey

Premiership Player
Oct 5, 2004
3,632
3,587
Melbourne
AFL Club
Hawthorn
In rebuild stage your not having a 28 year old Wingard over a 21 year old Duursma and 24 year old Burton though are you?
What do you reckon Mitchell would rather?

Finding and keeping the best one in that draft for us is what really matters Greeny I am sure that Mitchell would also agree ….. you’ve really gotta to move on!
 
Last edited:

nelk boys

Senior List
Oct 17, 2020
196
313
AFL Club
Hawthorn
In rebuild stage your not having a 28 year old Wingard over a 21 year old Duursma and 24 year old Burton though are you?
What do you reckon Mitchell would rather?
Sure, hindsight is a wonderful thing. Hawthorn has acknowledged the rebuild and is already building a great core of Day, CJ, Moore, Scrimshaw, DGB, Worpel, Bramble, Brockmen, Kosi, Lewis alongside the promising Ward, McDonald, Butler who look impressive midfielders. Already Hawthorn is setting the foundations for its next success with the rebuild likely only gonna last 2 more max years. We expect and demand success, the very essence and values of our club personify it, this is why we have won a flag every decade since the 60s, being the most succesful club in the modern era. Maybe your endless conversations is due to your envy of us as a club and how we are already in a better position than St Kilda for its next flag, you still need to rebuild properly. No need to keep bumping up this thread for irrelevant information and rubbish which holds no context, as we have addressed the draft.
 

Jack Green

All Australian
Feb 14, 2018
692
559
AFL Club
St Kilda
You do realise that two of our better players were out for the season last year. And both capable of key position roles. On top of that our two brightest young stars were missing injured for much of the season as was our top 5 pick in the draft. With all that we flattened one of the grand finalists and drew with the other as well as a beating several well credentialed teams above us. Yeah the future isn't as bleak as you have spent entire threads trying to make out it is. We have a bright young coach who has learned from the best. His got his own new crew of assistant coaches including one of the greatest midfielders to play the game Robert Harvey you might have heard of him. Another 5 young draft picks all pretty well credentialed. I worked in the football media and know that ex players say stuff because the media wants a story. Most of what is said is sh*t (exhibit A Kane Cornes) to get a rile up for 24 hours before they say the next bit of sh*t to justify their existence. That doesn't change the fact the Bucky and Jordy and legends of the club and collectively have 8 times the number of flags that your entire club does. Hope you are well and happy
Beautiful. Killer. Well you've answered my question, regards Hawks who share my opinion on their own club. Media hype . Well I suppose we don't value journalists that highly. Lewis copped a short back and sides from your president and Bucky's list analysis got a hiding from Hawks on social media . I suspect their both well paid for their insights [ unlike me] but thick skinned like myself regards personal or club insults and don't take it to heart . :p
Has been a great thread this , and amazingly could continue to be so:thumbsu:
 

Jack Green

All Australian
Feb 14, 2018
692
559
AFL Club
St Kilda
Sure, hindsight is a wonderful thing. Hawthorn has acknowledged the rebuild and is already building a great core of Day, CJ, Moore, Scrimshaw, DGB, Worpel, Bramble, Brockmen, Kosi, Lewis alongside the promising Ward, McDonald, Butler who look impressive midfielders. Already Hawthorn is setting the foundations for its next success with the rebuild likely only gonna last 2 more max years. We expect and demand success, the very essence and values of our club personify it, this is why we have won a flag every decade since the 60s, being the most succesful club in the modern era. Maybe your endless conversations is due to your envy of us as a club and how we are already in a better position than St Kilda for its next flag, you still need to rebuild properly. No need to keep bumping up this thread for irrelevant information and rubbish which holds no context, as we have addressed the draft.
2 years max, I don't see it. Only time will tell who is right or wrong.

Envy of us. Well course it is. For passionate supporters who buy membership tickets and go every week and have been to all finals and grand finals for decades without success, they would love to have had a fraction of the success Hawthorn has . And probably why though wishing it was them, they have enjoyed their mates at the Bulldogs , Richmond [ once ] and Melbourne win a flag for their long suffering supporters the last few years. And I imagine you guys as passionate Hawks would not begrudge those clubs one day in the sun.

Irrelevant information and rubbish - holds no context :think:
This is where we disagree . And this is why IMO the timeline expectation of many Hawthorn supporters is completely different to the majority of the football world. I have been extremely shocked and surprised that Hawthorn people [ most commenting frequently on these sites] weren't aware the last Hawthorn rebuild started in 2001 not 2004 which culminated in a years earlier than expected flag in 2008 .[ was there - great game - and after 17 years in the wilderness and Geelong had won the previous year- as a neutral I had no complaints ]
I also think a lot of Hawthorn supporters are unaware of the priority picks they got at the pointy end of the draft. I took these things as a given that Hawthorn people knew [ as I've discussed with my Hawthorn mates for many long years].

My next post will simply be FACT.
 

BIGHAWK23

Team Captain
Nov 7, 2019
523
1,475
AFL Club
Hawthorn
2 years max, I don't see it. Only time will tell who is right or wrong.

Envy of us. Well course it is. For passionate supporters who buy membership tickets and go every week and have been to all finals and grand finals for decades without success, they would love to have had a fraction of the success Hawthorn has . And probably why though wishing it was them, they have enjoyed their mates at the Bulldogs , Richmond [ once ] and Melbourne win a flag for their long suffering supporters the last few years. And I imagine you guys as passionate Hawks would not begrudge those clubs one day in the sun.

Irrelevant information and rubbish - holds no context :think:
This is where we disagree . And this is why IMO the timeline expectation of many Hawthorn supporters is completely different to the majority of the football world. I have been extremely shocked and surprised that Hawthorn people [ most commenting frequently on these sites] weren't aware the last Hawthorn rebuild started in 2001 not 2004 which culminated in a years earlier than expected flag in 2008 .[ was there - great game - and after 17 years in the wilderness and Geelong had won the previous year- as a neutral I had no complaints ]
I also think a lot of Hawthorn supporters are unaware of the priority picks they got at the pointy end of the draft. I took these things as a given that Hawthorn people knew [ as I've discussed with my Hawthorn mates for many long years].

My next post will simply be FACT.
Nick Riewoldt was a priority pick as was Luke Ball

Most clubs were serviced by this system

Not exactly some outlying reason that we succeeded
 

Jack Green

All Australian
Feb 14, 2018
692
559
AFL Club
St Kilda
Finding and keeping the best one in that draft for us is what really matters Greeny I am sure that Mitchell would also agree ….. you’ve really gotta to move on!
These figures I reckon are fact except for the picks come this October but most would have the picks I've allocated here about the same mark.
Seeing this will be the 7th year since the Hawks last saluted , I'll use these 7 years as a comparison to the 7 years at the turn of the century . So we will take it to the end of this year. Say the Hawks finish 12th this year [ most of their fans have them in that range and get picks accordingly without doing any trades and get a say, 6, 24.42 so we'll make it 3 picks inside 40 and one top 10 pick.] At the other end of the comparison they got the Hodge no.1 priority pick through trade in 2001 and priority picks granted in both 2004 and 2005. First lot was 16 team comp I think. Latest lot obviously 18. :thumbsu:

2000 - 2006

- 25 top 40 picks
- 8 top 8 picks

2016 -2022

- 11 top 40 picks
- 3 top 8 picks
 

FactsNotBS

If you can't say anything nice...
Aug 21, 2020
188
327
AFL Club
Gold Coast
Other Teams
Always Hawthorn. Just kidding GC.
Sure, hindsight is a wonderful thing. Hawthorn has acknowledged the rebuild and is already building a great core of Day, CJ, Moore, Scrimshaw, DGB, Worpel, Bramble, Brockmen, Kosi, Lewis alongside the promising Ward, McDonald, Butler who look impressive midfielders. Already Hawthorn is setting the foundations for its next success with the rebuild likely only gonna last 2 more max years. We expect and demand success, the very essence and values of our club personify it, this is why we have won a flag every decade since the 60s, being the most succesful club in the modern era. Maybe your endless conversations is due to your envy of us as a club and how we are already in a better position than St Kilda for its next flag, you still need to rebuild properly. No need to keep bumping up this thread for irrelevant information and rubbish which holds no context, as we have addressed the draft.

We lost nothing when Burton was traded. Good but average player. Its critical to be competitive during a rebuild. 2005-7 without Crawford wouldn’t have seen success is 2008 for example. He set standards and made an impact on field that kept fans engaged. Wingard is a star, a better player than Duursma and Burton combined, both as an individual player and in what he can do to help us rebuild.

If it was all about getting youth in, why would they keep Burgoyne last year?




On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app
 

Scotland

TheBrownDog
May 5, 2006
60,715
66,636
AFL Club
West Coast
We lost nothing when Burton was traded. Good but average player. Its critical to be competitive during a rebuild. 2005-7 without Crawford wouldn’t have seen success is 2008 for example. He set standards and made an impact on field that kept fans engaged. Wingard is a star, a better player than Duursma and Burton combined, both as an individual player and in what he can do to help us rebuild.

What is this I don't even? Wingard can be a mercurial player but the rest is silly.

Port pushed Wingard out the door in favour of youth and have since won 11, 14, 17 games. Back to back prelims and a kick away from the GF in 2020, disappointing prelim loss this year. The standard there is set by Boak, Gray etc. and now Wines after he realised getting injured in the offseason waterskiing isn't the best move.

In the same period Hawthorn won 11, 5, 7 games. Would Hawthorn be any better right now with Burton and Duursma instead of Wingard probably not, but Port lost nothing trading out one of the few AA calibre players on their list in his prime.
 

Pessimistic

Make me an Admin!
Sep 13, 2000
83,538
40,078
Melbourne cricket ground. Australia
AFL Club
Hawthorn
Other Teams
Horks
In rebuild stage your not having a 28 year old Wingard over a 21 year old Duursma and 24 year old Burton though are you?
What do you reckon Mitchell would rather?

2018 (gee we had high hopes for Matt Walker)

50% of the mature trades still around (should be 80%)
33% of the draftees (should be 45%)
Average age now 24

gee we sure burned that youf. Recruiting not great but hardly crap
2B6EF541-19B9-4383-BCF5-0F0906373F4A.jpeg
 

Pessimistic

Make me an Admin!
Sep 13, 2000
83,538
40,078
Melbourne cricket ground. Australia
AFL Club
Hawthorn
Other Teams
Horks
What is this I don't even? Wingard can be a mercurial player but the rest is silly.

Port pushed Wingard out the door in favour of youth and have since won 11, 14, 17 games. Back to back prelims and a kick away from the GF in 2020, disappointing prelim loss this year. The standard there is set by Boak, Gray etc. and now Wines after he realised getting injured in the offseason waterskiing isn't the best move.

In the same period Hawthorn won 11, 5, 7 games. Would Hawthorn be any better right now with Burton and Duursma instead of Wingard probably not, but Port lost nothing trading out one of the few AA calibre players on their list in his prime.

in the same post you said they missed a GF by a kick?
 

(Log in to remove this ad.)

Pessimistic

Make me an Admin!
Sep 13, 2000
83,538
40,078
Melbourne cricket ground. Australia
AFL Club
Hawthorn
Other Teams
Horks
2 years max, I don't see it. Only time will tell who is right or wrong.

Envy of us. Well course it is. For passionate supporters who buy membership tickets and go every week and have been to all finals and grand finals for decades without success, they would love to have had a fraction of the success Hawthorn has . And probably why though wishing it was them, they have enjoyed their mates at the Bulldogs , Richmond [ once ] and Melbourne win a flag for their long suffering supporters the last few years. And I imagine you guys as passionate Hawks would not begrudge those clubs one day in the sun.

Irrelevant information and rubbish - holds no context :think:
This is where we disagree . And this is why IMO the timeline expectation of many Hawthorn supporters is completely different to the majority of the football world. I have been extremely shocked and surprised that Hawthorn people [ most commenting frequently on these sites] weren't aware the last Hawthorn rebuild started in 2001 not 2004 which culminated in a years earlier than expected flag in 2008 .[ was there - great game - and after 17 years in the wilderness and Geelong had won the previous year- as a neutral I had no complaints ]
I also think a lot of Hawthorn supporters are unaware of the priority picks they got at the pointy end of the draft. I took these things as a given that Hawthorn people knew [ as I've discussed with my Hawthorn mates for many long years].

My next post will simply be FACT.

quite a few clubs seem to have been setup for 15 years by participating in the 2001 draft, and a few basket cases did not (carlton enforced exclusion)

I’ve said a few time the leg up in 2001 may have coloured the people who seem heavily into the orthodoxy that there has to be a boom bust cycle and nothing else

take away the examples of the clubs rebuilding during 2001 and the remaining cases aren’t anywhere near as overwhelming

as for 2004 you can make a case that hawthorns picks outcomes were equal or better than all the other 15 clubs but the 2004-2006 overall trading drafting where they also had more early picks looks more ‘average’
 

Jack Green

All Australian
Feb 14, 2018
692
559
AFL Club
St Kilda
quite a few clubs seem to have been setup for 15 years by participating in the 2001 draft, and a few basket cases did not (carlton enforced exclusion)

I’ve said a few time the leg up in 2001 may have coloured the people who seem heavily into the orthodoxy that there has to be a boom bust cycle and nothing else

take away the examples of the clubs rebuilding during 2001 and the remaining cases aren’t anywhere near as overwhelming

as for 2004 you can make a case that hawthorns picks outcomes were equal or better than all the other 15 clubs but the 2004-2006 overall trading drafting where they also had more early picks looks more ‘average’
I haven't gone into the split up of the picks . It's the amount of picks Hawthorn stockpiled which gave them the chance of success years later. You are always going to have hits and misses no matter how good your recruiting department is. Your Ellis [ ok] Thorp. Dowler, busts , but striking gold with Hodge , Lewis , Franklin, Roughead. It was the amount of access to the draft over the amount of time they had which enabled them to reap the benefits.

Pessimistic I gather you are an older supporter like yours truly who lived through this rebuild which started 2 decades ago. You would fully know that the disparity in quantity and quality of picks Hawthorn had then to now is very stark. I'm not a mathematician but on the stats I tendered above , roughly double the top 40 and treble the top 10. That access is now gone. I know I sound like a broken record but I think younger Hawthorn supporters are unaware of how long the last rebuild took, and unaware of priority picks and traded picks which was done last time around.

There is a very good reason why Clarkson bristled at the why don't you rebuild as losses mounted the last 2 years , and a very good reason why Mitchell was so keen to trade out to access the pointy end of the draft.
 

Jack Green

All Australian
Feb 14, 2018
692
559
AFL Club
St Kilda
2018 (gee we had high hopes for Matt Walker)

50% of the mature trades still around (should be 80%)
33% of the draftees (should be 45%)
Average age now 24

gee we sure burned that youf. Recruiting not great but hardly crap
View attachment 1306560
Walker -God I remember him. Someone described him as going to be a gun.
And Harry Jones and Jackson Ross were going to be top AFL players :eek: I don't even know who these guys are I must admit. And don't start me on Ryan Burton the year earlier!

But that probably to a degree , answers this thread in a nutshell. Hawthorn didn't need the elite end of the draft because of the genius of Clarko , their winning culture and the coaching programs and systems and development of players at Box Hill.
 

daniel23

Club Legend
Mar 19, 2006
2,060
3,925
AFL Club
Hawthorn
Walker -God I remember him. Someone described him as going to be a gun.
And Harry Jones and Jackson Ross were going to be top AFL players :eek: I don't even know who these guys are I must admit. And don't start me on Ryan Burton the year earlier!

But that probably to a degree , answers this thread in a nutshell. Hawthorn didn't need the elite end of the draft because of the genius of Clarko , their winning culture and the coaching programs and systems and development of players at Box Hill.

It is worrying that you know who matt walker is as an opposition fan.
 

Scotland

TheBrownDog
May 5, 2006
60,715
66,636
AFL Club
West Coast
in the same post you said they missed a GF by a kick?

They did, in 2020. If you are suggesting Wingard would've been the difference, then why didn't they play finals more than once in the 4 years before he left?

In the 2020 prelim Duursma and Burton both played, as did Butters and Rozee who who picked in the same draft after they offloaded Polec and traded up. If there's a parallel timeline where they keep Wingard and have Duursma, Burton, Butters and Rozee then yep they probably get through.
 

Pessimistic

Make me an Admin!
Sep 13, 2000
83,538
40,078
Melbourne cricket ground. Australia
AFL Club
Hawthorn
Other Teams
Horks
Walker -God I remember him. Someone described him as going to be a gun.
And Harry Jones and Jackson Ross were going to be top AFL players :eek: I don't even know who these guys are I must admit. And don't start me on Ryan Burton the year earlier!

But that probably to a degree , answers this thread in a nutshell. Hawthorn didn't need the elite end of the draft because of the genius of Clarko , their winning culture and the coaching programs and systems and development of players at Box Hill.

matt came back for his last pre season looking absolutely ripped and any thought it was his year to break out
 

Pessimistic

Make me an Admin!
Sep 13, 2000
83,538
40,078
Melbourne cricket ground. Australia
AFL Club
Hawthorn
Other Teams
Horks
I haven't gone into the split up of the picks . It's the amount of picks Hawthorn stockpiled which gave them the chance of success years later. You are always going to have hits and misses no matter how good your recruiting department is. Your Ellis [ ok] Thorp. Dowler, busts , but striking gold with Hodge , Lewis , Franklin, Roughead. It was the amount of access to the draft over the amount of time they had which enabled them to reap the benefits.

Pessimistic I gather you are an older supporter like yours truly who lived through this rebuild which started 2 decades ago. You would fully know that the disparity in quantity and quality of picks Hawthorn had then to now is very stark. I'm not a mathematician but on the stats I tendered above , roughly double the top 40 and treble the top 10. That access is now gone. I know I sound like a broken record but I think younger Hawthorn supporters are unaware of how long the last rebuild took, and unaware of priority picks and traded picks which was done last time around.

There is a very good reason why Clarkson bristled at the why don't you rebuild as losses mounted the last 2 years , and a very good reason why Mitchell was so keen to trade out to access the pointy end of the draft.

the fact remains hawthorn didn’t deliberately do anything like tanking in 2001-04 they just maximised while they were down there, as they are doing now
Carlton got all that access and more in that era, but we’re excluded from 2001. It’s by no means a guaranteed course of action, and totally unfair on money contributing supporters to have anything but striving for the best possible results
(Of course you still manage the list well, and don’t load up with discards year after year)
 

Guardian Hawk

Premiership Player
Oct 16, 2003
3,916
5,836
Murrumbeena
AFL Club
Hawthorn
On the trading for mature players:

Trading for Mitchell and O'Meara I maintain were the right moves. We were replacing midfielders in their mid 30's (Mitchell and Lewis) with midfielders who were 22 at the time. That is young enough to still be 'rebuilding' as it gives approximately 10 years of service, whilst allowing the team to remain strong enough to attract free agents, etc.

They were also the right kind of players to target in that they should have been good value with Mitchell the 5th banana at Sydney and clearly underutilised/undervalued and O'Meara unable to get on the park due to injury mismanagement.

Mitchell for pick 14 was great business and given he has been top 2 in the B&F 4 times in 4 years, was clearly the right call. Where it went wrong was in trading for O'Meara when Cochrane dug his heels in and refused to trade him for any price. Clarkson and others tried to mediate and talk about what was best for player and club. At that point, Hawthorn needed to walk away. Problem was, Clarkson believed that he was obligated to pay whatever price necessary as he had courted O'Meara and that is how you establish good culture and continue to attract players to the club (either through trade or free agency) - by making sure you get the deal done - even if you 'lose the trade'. IN the end, Cochrane predictably folded anyway as he had no choice but the damage had been done as Hawthorn had already paid a high price to force Gold Coast's hand.

Wingard was a different, but similar, story. Hawthorn had just finished top 4 but had lost Rioli to an unexpected, very early, retirement. Clarkson wanted to replace him and give a flag tilt another shot. Clarko had always loved Wingard - it was said he was his favourite oppo player by some margin and in truth, was probably the most similar to offering the match winning capabilities that Rioli had through half forward and bursts in the middle. Again, we were willing to pay more than we should have to ensure the deal got done and got played by Port in the process (who even manipulated the trade of Burton). We needed to be genuinely willing to walk away and I believe a fairer deal would have been available but alas, Hawthorn went all out for the 'optics' and 'culture' of the club.

In the end, it didn't facilitate the acquisition of any quality free agents - with Lynch choosing the now stronger Richmond and Coniglio supposedly backflipping after the AFL stepped in with big ambassadorial payments to keep him at GWS.

The other mature aged players brought in were inconsequential and worth the risk IMO as the remainder were traded for 4th rounders, etc which essentially hold no value anyway.
 

Pessimistic

Make me an Admin!
Sep 13, 2000
83,538
40,078
Melbourne cricket ground. Australia
AFL Club
Hawthorn
Other Teams
Horks
On the trading for mature players:

Trading for Mitchell and O'Meara I maintain were the right moves. We were replacing midfielders in their mid 30's (Mitchell and Lewis) with midfielders who were 22 at the time. That is young enough to still be 'rebuilding' as it gives approximately 10 years of service, whilst allowing the team to remain strong enough to attract free agents, etc.

They were also the right kind of players to target in that they should have been good value with Mitchell the 5th banana at Sydney and clearly underutilised/undervalued and O'Meara unable to get on the park due to injury mismanagement.

Mitchell for pick 14 was great business and given he has been top 2 in the B&F 4 times in 4 years, was clearly the right call. Where it went wrong was in trading for O'Meara when Cochrane dug his heels in and refused to trade him for any price. Clarkson and others tried to mediate and talk about what was best for player and club. At that point, Hawthorn needed to walk away. Problem was, Clarkson believed that he was obligated to pay whatever price necessary as he had courted O'Meara and that is how you establish good culture and continue to attract players to the club (either through trade or free agency) - by making sure you get the deal done - even if you 'lose the trade'. IN the end, Cochrane predictably folded anyway as he had no choice but the damage had been done as Hawthorn had already paid a high price to force Gold Coast's hand.

Wingard was a different, but similar, story. Hawthorn had just finished top 4 but had lost Rioli to an unexpected, very early, retirement. Clarkson wanted to replace him and give a flag tilt another shot. Clarko had always loved Wingard - it was said he was his favourite oppo player by some margin and in truth, was probably the most similar to offering the match winning capabilities that Rioli had through half forward and bursts in the middle. Again, we were willing to pay more than we should have to ensure the deal got done and got played by Port in the process (who even manipulated the trade of Burton). We needed to be genuinely willing to walk away and I believe a fairer deal would have been available but alas, Hawthorn went all out for the 'optics' and 'culture' of the club.

In the end, it didn't facilitate the acquisition of any quality free agents - with Lynch choosing the now stronger Richmond and Coniglio supposedly backflipping after the AFL stepped in with big ambassadorial payments to keep him at GWS.

The other mature aged players brought in were inconsequential and worth the risk IMO as the remainder were traded for 4th rounders, etc which essentially hold no value anyway.

eloquently said. It didn’t work out but the list has some very healthy aspects to it, and the cap space is healthy too

wanting to cash in a piece last trade has merit but the overlap of a player being required enough elsewhere, the ability of a destination club having or even willing to give the early draft picks hawthorn wanted, not to mention the willingness of the players to leavegave very little scope. Perhaps it shouldn’t have been so high profile in the media especially when rabble rousers are looking for a story.

also successful years saw overpayment (at the time without hindsight) for mature recruits

2009
Burgoyne and pick 24 for pick 9 and 16and later swaps
Gibson for pick 25 and later swaps
Draft stratton 46 duryea 69
2010
Hale for compensation pick for C Brown
Draft smith 19 Puopolo 66 Langford rookie
2011
Gunston for 24 and late swaps
Draft hill 33
2012
Lake and 27 for 21 and 43
Spangler and 70 for 64
Draft Tim O’Brien 28 Ceglar rookie
2013
McEvoy and 24 for savage 16 and 19
Draft hartung 24 I recall the club saying they were changing tack from prior to 2009 because of the expansion leading to poor access to early picks - which affected all other clubs too.
It was wildly successful despite clear overpayment compensated slightly by gems late in the draft. It didn’t continue and the club has adapted conservatively (especially has lower finishes have delivered the early picks which hawthorn clearly did not have and had to compensate for in other ways
 

Guardian Hawk

Premiership Player
Oct 16, 2003
3,916
5,836
Murrumbeena
AFL Club
Hawthorn
The other point I'd like to make regarding the Wingard trade is that whilst Duursma and Burton at their ages is obviously preferred for a rebuilding club (and the Hawks definitely did overpay for Wingard), it is worth noting...

That Hawthorn's 2 biggest list deficiencies are:
(a) Line breaking (inside-outside) diversity through the midfield with too many similar types in Mitchell, O'Meara, Worpel, etc.
(b) Creative mercurial small forwards who can be a conduit between the midfield and the forward lines ala Rioli

Wingard is basically the only current quality player we have in either of those roles. If anything, we need to clone him (and Ward and Butler being our first 2 picks this draft is directly trying to address (a) and (b), respectively).

Meanwhile, Burton and Duursma have played their best football at half back, where Hawthorn already have a significant surplus of talent. We are already trying to work out how to play Sicily, Jiath, Impey, Hardwick, Day, Scrimshaw, Bramble and DGB across the 2-3 available positions at half back. That's not to say we would have no use for Burton and Duursma (who we would have to try and deploy elsewhere) but nearly all of their good football has come in a position where they wouldn't get a spot at Hawthorn.
 

Sphynx

Premiership Player
Jul 10, 2011
3,422
9,011
AFL Club
North Melbourne
Wingard was class at times this year, would have been great for a contender when Hawthorn tried to shop him.

But he’s a bit of an introvert and seems to be just happy collecting his pay cheque at Hawthorn for the rest of his career now.

He’s 29 next year and an awkward age of not realistically going to be around for their next tilt.

There’s a few others like him obviously.

They are caught in a bit of no man’s land tbh, even this year Ward is a welcome top 10 pick for their midfield build, but it’s hardly picking from the cream of the crop.

They’ve got some senior players returning and will probably improve, and finish in that 12-9th spots.

Not great for the long term.

They remind me a bit of North of the early 00’s at the moment, when we had some decent young players a and the remainder of our premiership sides of Harvey, Simpson, Archer, McKernan, Grant, Rawlings etc keeping us competitive with Wells, Petrie, Gibson etc. Always around finals, never a real contender, but even managed a prelim in 2007.
 
Last edited:

Remove this Banner Ad

Remove this Banner Ad