Can Hawthorn succeed while ignoring the elite end of the draft?

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Wrong. O’Brien and Brand won’t be around at the end of the year.
and yet, they're both in your best 22 right now, or in Brand's case, has been for most of the year.

Why? Because Frawley, Stratton & others have been injured at various stages of the year? What about when they retire? Are all your hopes pinned on 0-gamer Jacob Koschitzke to take the important #1 key defensive mantle?

There is still penty of decent players in the best 22 that will be around for a while yet.

Morrison 20
Mitchell 25
Impey 23
Sicily 24
Worpel 20
Lewis 20
O’Meara 24
Hardwick 22
Gunston 27
Wingard 25
Scully 27
Breust 28
Shiels 28
Scrimshaw 20
Cousins 21
This is where your delusions come in.
Have Hawthorn done well picking up a lot of those young players with late picks? Yes.
Are they on the same level of talent as some of the better young crops with a good volume of high draft picks? No, but you won't admit it. Rather, you can't admit it.

The history of Premiership winning teams including your own shows success is built upon a strong foundation assembled through the high end of the draft. Your club is skipping that.

With Roughead, Burgoyne, Birchall, Puopolo, Frawley and Mohr all set to retire this year Hawthorn will have well over 2 million dollars in cap space.

Hawthorn will be biggest spenders during the trade/free agency period this year. Be very afraid of what’s coming soon. :)
More delusion. Do you genuinely believe money freed up from retirees, most of which are likely already on smaller deals, can just instantly be used on big signings? Believe it or not, but more cap space than you want to believe will end up going to players on your list wanting bigger contracts.

That being said, I'm sure Hawthorn will still try. Clarkson's very clearly desperate to win one more trophy, and is very happy to compromise on the club's long-term future if it means even getting the slightest sniff of silverware.

I'm sure you were one of the many dullard Hawthorn supporters who believed you were getting Shiel at the end of last year. Turns out things don't always work out the way you expect.
 
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Wtf? A guy doing his job is some kind of threat to an organisation? Is your logic tht unless the club deliberately tries to go down the ladder for a few seasons, they will be doomed to.....go down the ladder for a few seasons?

“That being said, I'm sure Hawthorn will still try. Clarkson's very clearly desperate to win one more trophy, and is very happy to compromise on the club's long-term future if it means even getting the slightest sniff of silverware.”
 
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4THAWN

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and yet, they're both in your best 22 right now, or in Brand's case, has been for most of the year.

Why? Because Frawley, Stratton & others have been injured at various stages of the year? What about when they retire? Are all your hopes pinned on 0-gamer Jacob Koschitzke to take the important #1 key defensive mantle?



This is where your delusions come in.
Have Hawthorn done well picking up a lot of those young players with late picks? Yes.
Are they on the same level of talent as some of the better young crops with a good volume of high draft picks? No, but you won't admit it. Rather, you can't admit it.

The history of Premiership winning teams including your own shows success is built upon a strong foundation assembled through the high end of the draft. Your club is skipping that.


More delusion. Do you genuinely believe money freed up from retirees, most of which are likely already on smaller deals, can just instantly be used on big signings? Believe it or not, but more cap space than you want to believe will end up going to players on your list wanting bigger contracts.

That being said, I'm sure Hawthorn will still try. Clarkson's very clearly desperate to win one more trophy, and is very happy to compromise on the club's long-term future if it means even getting the slightest sniff of silverware.

I'm sure you were one of the many dullard Hawthorn supporters who believed you were getting Shiel at the end of last year. Turns out things don't always work out the way you expect.
how jealous is this bloke ahah
 

Scotland

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Did you have heaps of cap space when you signed Mitchell, O'Meara, Scully, Wingard?

Every year fans say **** like 'we can sign whoever we want and back end their contract'. Then the same fans say 'when these guys retire we'll free up millions'.

Not Hawthorn specific, but massively naive to think the Hawks 2019, 2020 etc. salary cap doesn't have back ended contracts in it.
 

beta_condition

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Did you have heaps of cap space when you signed Mitchell, O'Meara, Scully, Wingard?

Every year fans say **** like 'we can sign whoever we want and back end their contract'. Then the same fans say 'when these guys retire we'll free up millions'.

Not Hawthorn specific, but massively naive to think the Hawks 2019, 2020 etc. salary cap doesn't have back ended contracts in it.
Scully and Wingard are on 600k a year, Hawthorn had enough cash last year for both Shiel and Lynch so you tell me if Hawthorn have cash to spend.
 

hk89

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Scully and Wingard are on 600k a year, Hawthorn had enough cash last year for both Shiel and Lynch so you tell me if Hawthorn have cash to spend.
Scully could be on even less than that, given that would be $100k more than GWS were supposed to be paying him (which is why salary dumping by getting rid of Scully didn't make as much sense as it would have for other players, but I guess the ankle situation made it a complicated scenario).
 

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how jealous is this bloke ahah
Sorry, it's not 2015 anymore. There's very little to be jealous about when it comes to Hawthorn these days; you're near the bottom of the ladder and are throwing away all your youth in a desperate, but wishful attempt to grasp one last flag. I know my club has it's problems, but we have far better youth than Hawthorn, that's good enough for me.

Scully and Wingard are on 600k a year, Hawthorn had enough cash last year for both Shiel and Lynch so you tell me if Hawthorn have cash to spend.
lol rubbish. Had the money for both? Yet didn't sign either one? That literally means you didn't have enough money.
 

beta_condition

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Sorry, it's not 2015 anymore. There's very little to be jealous about when it comes to Hawthorn these days; you're near the bottom of the ladder and are throwing away all your youth in a desperate, but wishful attempt to grasp one last flag. I know my club has it's problems, but we have far better youth than Hawthorn, that's good enough for me.


lol rubbish. Had the money for both? Yet didn't sign either one? That literally means you didn't have enough money.
If you think money is the only thing Shiel or Lynch signed for but is that the reality? :drunk:
 

Simon_Nesbit

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We'll have the most cash of any club to spend this year.
...AGAIN...

We have had close to, if not the most pretty much every year. Even in 2015 we were still renegotiating and front-loading contracts to use the 100% cap. It doesn't mean we will spend it.

It's why Mitchell, Hodge and Lewis being encouraged to leave didn't suddenly open up a huge warchest - we already had it in the back pocket. But once you use it, it's gone, and even using part of it significantly reduces the flexibility with contracting existing players.

Hawthorn has a very "flat" salary cap - our highest paid player was under 600k when the first million dollar players were around, and peaked with Sam at around 800k. Franklin was on 750 + bonuses when he left, was offered 1.1 (breaking our own 'rule') to stay.

At one point (around 2012 IIRC) we were actually paying less than 92.5% for the actual year, re-signing players with heavily front-loaded contracts to use up the rest of the cap. It helped fuel our premiership acquisitions (Lake went from being paid a year late to getting his salary paid up front and in advance, Hale was on minimum salary after long-term front-loaded contract, etc - the time-value of money surely helps in negotiating lower overall contract values). It's one of (perhaps the major) reason why the "salary cap banking" rule was brought in.

Hawthorn have allegedly held back 1-1.2m every year since - (spending 100% of the cap each year by re-signing players and bringing forward payments), ready for the next Premiership push. I'd love to see those figures published (12/24 month retrospectively to keep the clubs competitive advantage).

With regards to the current list, I think we are pretty close to the cap - just carrying over the same "warchest" from year to year.

Frawley's big FA contract expired - he was extended on much less and as of next year will be on year-by-year contracts.
Rough's on far less than you'd expect for a player of his status. He was very well paid through his illness, and the club renegotiated the length of his contract without much extra money to provide financial security when there was no certainty he would return (or even survive).
Burgoyne now plays for the love of the game. Allegedly he asked to be put on minimum contract with trigger clauses for renewal (# of games)

None of those players will release much extra cap room. Everyone else out of contract is borderline AFL or kids and would be on minimal wages.

Birchall's in the last year of his "Career" contract - that will save North of 500k.
Breust signed after a "Career" year - I expect he's on very good money (600+)
McEvoy just signed a 2yr extension. He turned down a 550k contract in 2017 and was going to retire. Might be on big money.
JOM will still be on big money, signing a new four year contract now at less than GC but still probably close to 800k
Wingard is reportedly on 650k for 5.
TOM is on a 5yr, 600k+ contract
Gunston, Shiels, Sicily and Smith all signed longer term contracts when the 3-peat stars left. All would be on decent coin.
Worpel has just extended - no longer on draftee wages.
Scully extended his 550k 1yr, into a 3yr contract after being traded. Unsure on terms but called "a bargain". Might be 3 x 350k or similar.
Henderson can expect a good pay rise this year - from DFA to top-10 this year. We will need to find an extra 300k or so to keep him.

There's about 7 million there for 12 players. There's 20 other players on draftee or minimal contracts (120k-150k) = say 3 million all together. That leaves just 2m left for the remaining 10 players. At AFL average (340k) that puts us over 100% of the cap, so the above figures are probably on the high side - including bonuses, marketing allowances, etc.
 
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...AGAIN...

We have had close to, if not the most pretty much every year. Even in 2015 we were still renegotiating and front-loading contracts to use the 100% cap. It doesn't mean we will spend it.

It's why Mitchell, Hodge and Lewis being encouraged to leave didn't suddenly open up a huge warchest - we already had it in the back pocket. But once you use it, it's gone, and even using part of it significantly reduces the flexibility with contracting existing players.

Hawthorn has a very "flat" salary cap - our highest paid player was under 600k when the first million dollar players were around, and peaked with Sam at around 800k. Franklin was on 750 + bonuses when he left, was offered 1.1 (breaking our own 'rule') to stay.

At one point (around 2012 IIRC) we were actually paying less than 92.5% for the actual year, re-signing players with heavily front-loaded contracts to use up the rest of the cap. It helped fuel our premiership acquisitions (Lake went from being paid a year late to getting his salary paid up front and in advance, Hale was on minimum salary after long-term front-loaded contract, etc - the time-value of money surely helps in negotiating lower overall contract values). It's one of (perhaps the major) reason why the "salary cap banking" rule was brought in.

Hawthorn have allegedly held back 1-1.2m every year since - (spending 100% of the cap each year by re-signing players and bringing forward payments), ready for the next Premiership push. I'd love to see those figures published (12/24 month retrospectively to keep the clubs competitive advantage).

With regards to the current list, I think we are pretty close to the cap - just carrying over the same "warchest" from year to year.

Frawley's big FA contract expired - he was extended on much less and as of next year will be on year-by-year contracts.
Rough's on far less than you'd expect for a player of his status. He was very well paid through his illness, and the club renegotiated the length of his contract without much extra money to provide financial security when there was no certainty he would return (or even survive).
Burgoyne now plays for the love of the game. Allegedly he asked to be put on minimum contract with trigger clauses for renewal (# of games)

None of those players will release much extra cap room. Everyone else out of contract is borderline AFL or kids and would be on minimal wages.

Birchall's in the last year of his "Career" contract - that will save North of 500k.
Breust signed after a "Career" year - I expect he's on very good money (600+)
McEvoy just signed a 2yr extension. He turned down a 550k contract in 2017 and was going to retire. Might be on big money.
JOM will still be on big money, signing a new four year contract now at less than GC but still probably close to 800k
Wingard is reportedly on 650k for 5.
TOM is on a 5yr, 600k+ contract
Gunston, Shiels, Sicily and Smith all signed longer term contracts when the 3-peat stars left. All would be on decent coin.
Worpel has just extended - no longer on draftee wages.
Scully extended his 550k 1yr, into a 3yr contract after being traded. Unsure on terms but called "a bargain". Might be 3 x 350k or similar.
Henderson can expect a good pay rise this year - from DFA to top-10 this year. We will need to find an extra 300k or so to keep him.

There's about 7 million there for 12 players. There's 20 other players on draftee or minimal contracts (120k-150k) = say 3 million all together. That leaves just 2m left for the remaining 10 players. At AFL average (340k) that puts us over 100% of the cap, so the above figures are probably on the high side - including bonuses, marketing allowances, etc.
Jesus, are you an accountant?
 

TylerDurden

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Didn't work for north,Carlton or bombers last year ..

Clarko is holding a pair of fives (poker terms) does he go all in or fold this trade period I wonder..
Depends on where we finish. It's looking like a low pick, which we would keep this time.

Wouldn't surprise if he does another Burton type move though. He never dies wondering.
 
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