Can Hawthorn succeed while ignoring the elite end of the draft?

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Nugett

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Are you flat out stating that there is no room for an All Australian in your forward line? Jesus Christ.

Jack Gunston, even after a poor year in an underperforming side, was still better than Rioli in almost every major category.

Don’t allow yourself to be dragged down to Blaisee level. Your mental health deserves better than that...

554A51C9-3016-42C5-8BC0-DD2D742F076B.jpeg
 

blaisee

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FMD 😂, BigBoy is miles better than either of your ruckmen and he isn't even absolutely top notch. Your also saying both Breust and Frawley are spuds as well. Frawley would be your 2nd tall back ahead of Astbury. Your an idiot. Should not even bother replying anymore to you waste of time and energy.

Breust i discussed

Big boy is 31, our 2 Ruckman are younger, cheaper have performed their role in our team and have way more upside

If Soldo keeps developing at this rate he will be in the top 5 Ruckman in the league in 2 years.

We aren’t trading Soldo or nank for mcevoy .
 
May 5, 2006
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Maybe you can explain how a side who “won’t challenge the better sides“ actually beat them?

Let me guess, they all played really badly like when your eagles got plucked at home.

My own team (who only won 15 games, we're not Essendon 2000) lost to Sydney, Port Adelaide and Hawthorn who all missed the finals.

Richmond (who won the flag) lost to Adelaide and North Melbourne who both missed the finals.

Geelong (who finished top) lost to Fremantle, Hawthorn and Port Adelaide. Brisbane (who finished second) lost to Carlton and Fremantle.

Beating top 8 teams doesn't make you a top 8 team. Finishing in the top 8 makes you a top 8 team.

Considering we led many games by fair margins in matches we lost and ended up 2 men down 3 times would be cause to think we were a touch unlucky, the real issue we didn't make it was because it took us half a season to make a system work without Mitchell. By than it was too late to make up the ground. No reason why that can't continue into next year with Wingard and Scully used to the way we want to play now and Patton providing coverage and presence for Mitch Lewis. Those 3 players alone will have a knock on effect to how we play.

Three losses under a goal, ouch. But two wins under a goal also. Can't have it all. At 11-11 109% and being in competitive positions Hawthorn are very, very comparable to Port Adelaide who finished 11-11 105%. Are you happy in that company?
 

Niggles

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Instead of naming spuds, I will name the players on the hawthorn list, that might at their best get a game for Richmond

Mitchell
Sicily
JOM
Gunston
Wingard

Thats 5.

Honestly, that's about it. So the rest of them, basically IMHO are battlers that will keep Hawthorn were they are, and have been for 4 years, middle of the road.

Little jimmy Worpal could possibly get a run off the bench in our dominant VFL team. Assuming he were to lift as most do when they wear the black and yellow.

Otherwise, there is not much to look forward to for hawk fans. Very average list coming through. Frawley (lol) wouldn't even get a gig in the VFL line up. Past it. (did he ever have it?)

In all honesty, they probably need to give little Al and Wright the flick and get some fresh new ideas in. Even Sos had put together a better list in the same time frame. A complete clean out is required i'm afraid.
 
My own team (who only won 15 games, we're not Essendon 2000) lost to Sydney, Port Adelaide and Hawthorn who all missed the finals.

Richmond (who won the flag) lost to Adelaide and North Melbourne who both missed the finals.

Geelong (who finished top) lost to Fremantle, Hawthorn and Port Adelaide. Brisbane (who finished second) lost to Carlton and Fremantle.

Beating top 8 teams doesn't make you a top 8 team. Finishing in the top 8 makes you a top 8 team.
That’s great, but maybe you got confused by your own statement....

How does a side who won’t challenge the better teams in the comp beat so many of them?
 

Pessimistic

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My own team (who only won 15 games, we're not Essendon 2000) lost to Sydney, Port Adelaide and Hawthorn who all missed the finals.

Richmond (who won the flag) lost to Adelaide and North Melbourne who both missed the finals.

Geelong (who finished top) lost to Fremantle, Hawthorn and Port Adelaide. Brisbane (who finished second) lost to Carlton and Fremantle.

Beating top 8 teams doesn't make you a top 8 team. Finishing in the top 8 makes you a top 8 team.



Three losses under a goal, ouch. But two wins under a goal also. Can't have it all. At 11-11 109% and being in competitive positions Hawthorn are very, very comparable to Port Adelaide who finished 11-11 105%. Are you happy in that company?

its a fair comparison. Port appear to be acting more aggressively, which suggests they think they are a way off.
hawthorn appear more conservative, maybe they are more confident in their approach.

maybe port are being more realistic, who knows
 

matey

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Instead of naming spuds, I will name the players on the hawthorn list, that might at their best get a game for Richmond

Mitchell
Sicily
JOM
Gunston
Wingard

Thats 5.

Honestly, that's about it. So the rest of them, basically IMHO are battlers that will keep Hawthorn were they are, and have been for 4 years, middle of the road.
B######t Day and Finn would debut without a doubt.
 
Nov 13, 2018
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It's funny watching a Richmond supporter slate Hawthorn's players and list management.
How quickly one forgets that Richmond supporters were at their "membership card microwaving best" only 3 seasons ago, backed by most football pundits who were urging them to start a total rebuild from scratch. Yet 12 months later they won the premierships, and let's be honest, should have had 3 in a row if they didn't bottle it vs Collingwood in the middle year.

As a Hawthorn supporter, I am delighted with the list transition since 2016.
We keep selling that farm - over and over again - yet somehow manage to find elite level talents all through the draft.

Opposition supporters are kidding themselves if they say they wouldn't be happy had they drafted Lewis, Sicily or Worpel with top 10 picks.
Had their clubs done so, they'd all be thrilled with the outcome.

We are a good shot for top 4 this season, and anything could happen from there.
Aside from Richmond and the Giants, that's the best 16 other clubs can reasonably expect from 2020.

Don't worry about Hawthorn folks.
We will be fine and will get more than our fair share of premierships.
 
How is it that a team who has zero key position players end up finishing first in contested marks and intercept marks? The fact that Hawthorn finished 3rd in points conceded despite having an undersized back-line and no centre half back shows that they can beat any team.

What “areas” on the ground are Hawthorn lacking depth in?
 
Little jimmy Worpal could possibly get a run off the bench in our dominant VFL team. Assuming he were to lift as most do when they wear the black and yellow.

Otherwise, there is not much to look forward to for hawk fans. Very average list coming through. Frawley (lol) wouldn't even get a gig in the VFL line up. Past it. (did he ever have it?)

In all honesty, they probably need to give little Al and Wright the flick and get some fresh new ideas in. Even Sos had put together a better list in the same time frame. A complete clean out is required i'm afraid.

Nice join date.

At the end of 2020 Richmond will have an older list than Hawthorn with Burgoyne off the Hawks list.
 

Pessimistic

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It's funny watching a Richmond supporter slate Hawthorn's players and list management.
How quickly one forgets that Richmond supporters were at their "membership card microwaving best" only 3 seasons ago, backed by most football pundits who were urging them to start a total rebuild from scratch. Yet 12 months later they won the premierships, and let's be honest, should have had 3 in a row if they didn't bottle it vs Collingwood in the middle year.

As a Hawthorn supporter, I am delighted with the list transition since 2016.
We keep selling that farm - over and over again - yet somehow manage to find elite level talents all through the draft.

Opposition supporters are kidding themselves if they say they wouldn't be happy had they drafted Lewis, Sicily or Worpel with top 10 picks.
Had their clubs done so, they'd all be thrilled with the outcome.

We are a good shot for top 4 this season, and anything could happen from there.
Aside from Richmond and the Giants, that's the best 16 other clubs can reasonably expect from 2020.

Don't worry about Hawthorn folks.
We will be fine and will get more than our fair share of premierships.

our drafting is 44% successful, including some triple premiers drafted around 2010. Thats about on par with the whole draft performance, without much access to the elite end
this year was only the second pick before 15 since 2004
 

Niggles

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Nice join date.

At the end of 2020 Richmond will have an older list than Hawthorn with Burgoyne off the Hawks list.
What does my join date have to do with my astute judgement. The age of our lists is not in question here. It's your very bleak future that's the issue. A real problem as all the other teams continue to rise above little Hawthorn. Now I suggest you stay on the topic at hand otherwise the Mods will need to discipline you.
 

matey

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Once Burgs sails off into the sunset Hawks will be younger than Tigers, wow! But that’s what you would expect from rebuilding the playing list since the three peat. Only the best teams in the history of the game have achieved this great feat and to challenge for silverware again soon would be epic.
 

blaisee

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Once Burgs sails off into the sunset Hawks will be younger than Tigers, wow! But that’s what you would expect from rebuilding the playing list since the three peat. Only the best teams in the history of the game have achieved this great feat and to challenge for silverware again soon would be epic.

When do you reckon you will challenge?

Next year?
 
May 5, 2006
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That’s great, but maybe you got confused by your own statement....

How does a side who won’t challenge the better teams in the comp beat so many of them?

I concede Hawthorn are capable of beating teams above them on the ladder. As are the other teams I mentioned.

Personally, and I know this is a crazy notion, when my team makes the finals I don't consider that any of 10 teams that did not will challenge them. Teams outside the 8 that provide nuisance value can work in your favour or not. Swings and roundabouts there.
 

blaisee

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of course

mate by 2021/2022, Hawthorn, if they are smart, which they generally are, will on the bottom of the ladder getting top 5 draft picks.

For the hawks to win the flag by 2021. The 2020 offseason is gunna be huge. they will have to bring in players of the quality of

Coniglio
Whitfield
Prestia
Lynch
kelly
Shiels


Um, considering all these guys knocked them back, I don't think so.

Worst thing that could happen is a desperate attempt to stay relevant by bringing in more B graders .

This will keep them middle of the road for longer . Its a tough spot.
 
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its a fair comparison. Port appear to be acting more aggressively, which suggests they think they are a way off.
hawthorn appear more conservative, maybe they are more confident in their approach.

maybe port are being more realistic, who knows

Port also targeted established players in recent seasons.

Rockliff, Ryder, Motlop, Polec, Watts, White, Dixon, Lycett, Monfries and I guess Burton were all brought in to be best 22 players. They brought in fringe guys too (same as Hawthorn) but every club does that.

Port are an interesting case because around 2013/14 they were ascending and had a fairly young team. Only two players older than 27 in the team that played Hawthorn in the 2014 prelim. Since then they have topped up to some degree but haven't really gone anywhere. Have made the finals once in 5 seasons with a worst result of 10-12 in that time. Complete holding pattern. That roup is now getting on a bit (7 players 29+ in their last 22) and they seem to have made a recent decision to return to youth using 5 first round picks in two years. Hawthorn have an older and more experienced team than Port. Will they keep trying to stay at that point of the curve (26/27 age, 2500-3000 experience)? Unless there are free agents on offer it's an expensive exercise.
 

matey

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2021/2022 ?

You reckon you can win the flag?

Yes and yes. However if the Hawks won it next year wouldn’t be anymore surprising then when Dogs won it 2016, Tigers 2017 or WC 2018. No one picked these sides going into the season. During 2016/17 summer Hardwick would have been talking to career advisers on a plan B on what to do next as he was on the verge of being sacked given the Tigers pathetic 2016 year.
 
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