Can Hawthorn succeed while ignoring the elite end of the draft?

Gralin

Super Moderator
Apr 8, 2010
33,295
49,528
AFL Club
Hawthorn
Other Teams
Buffalo Bills
And the core was acquired prior to that. Without the top 40 draft guns listed in the OP, I'd submit Hawthorn wouldn't have won 1 flag, let alone 4.

They could always fill gaps around that core because they were so good.

That core is gone.



If you think it's not worthy of discussion, i can point you in the direction of 10,000 posts that suggest otherwise.

It was a big change of direction for Clarko, who built the core of his great teams through the early rounds of the draft.

There's nothing to say it won't work. Sometimes the hallmark of the very best in their ability to reinvent themselves. Alex Ferguson is a great example.

But it's interesting. If you don't have a contribution, maybe you could just bugger off.
If you're not listing Gibson and Burgoyne in the core group there is something wrong with your core group.

As I said in a previous post. You need a group of a grade players and some role players to win a flag.

You are going to have mix of drafted players and imports. It doesn't matter which group the A grade players come from as long as you have enough.

You don't need to get them from the top end of the draft, that's where you are most likely to get them from if you are drafting but you can find them with later picks.

Mitchell wasn't an early pick at #36 but he's part of that elite core that won four flags.

Breust is an elite small forward with 3 flags and he was a rookie pick.

Over half of the Hawks who played over 10 games last year were drafted by the club.

6 of the top 10 in the PCM were drafted by the club. The winner at pick 45, in fact the highest pick used by the club on a player in that top 10 was 34 on Shiels way back in 2008.

You don't need early draft picks in bunches to build a core of good players.
 

(Log in to remove this ad.)

Furn2

Norm Smith Medallist
Sep 27, 2012
9,258
15,160
AFL Club
Hawthorn
Don't Scully and Patton actually help our argument ?

The fact that 2 consensus no1 picks were basically cast off in their mid 20s shows how treacherous the draft can be even at the very top.
 

Furn2

Norm Smith Medallist
Sep 27, 2012
9,258
15,160
AFL Club
Hawthorn
Has it changed though?

You can bring players in via trade and FA but they cost more both in trade and contract, and you don’t get them for their whole career where they grow together.

Has there been a great team that has done it any other way?

Richmond has been dominant at the moment - draft core has been Cotchin (pick 2), Martin (pick 3), Riewoldt (pick 13), Rioli (pick 15), Rance (pick 18) and Edwards (pick 26).

They don’t win any flags without those picks, and bringing them in via trade or FA? Impossibly expensive.

That’s why it’s such a different approach by Hawthorn - they almost totally ignored the draft for so many years. If they pull this off, wow... it’s revolutionary.
In 2008 a total of 6 players moved clubs, none of them being any good. There simply was no other option other than going to the draft until very recently.

Now you can get players like Lynch for nothing and even when trading players pick their club and you generally get them for unders even when contracted.
 

Captain chaos

Club Legend
Jul 13, 2016
1,367
923
AFL Club
Geelong
While there has been a lot of trades recently, a ‘different rebuild’ if you like. I’m at a loss to see real glaring holes in the list now. Although you would take quality player if you found one. This list is going to be pretty much it when the peak comes in 2022 (before another rebuild starts)

players who will probably have left in 2022: Burgoyne Puopolo Henderson. Replaced in best 22 by Maginness Walker and Impey

I see Frawley smith and Stratton as quite durable and still playing a role, but needing replacements after 2022. Frost Hartley an Kosi would be candidates for Frawley and strattons roles, with Morrison or a yet unknown player for smith, perhaps Jiath, golds or Jones

interesting I suggested replacing players who came 50:50 from trades and drafting with candidates 30:70 from trades and drafting

we are talking mostly role players here, with Frawley Stratton smith and Burgoyne the most obviously hard talents to replace

if there’s no role for Jackson Ross by then, expect other clubs to come knocking. Too much talent to ignore

of course some players leave earlier and some later. Rioli left while young and Henderson was 2nd in the bnf. And the peak at 2022? It may fall short of premiership or even grand final, but the List is pretty much set till then
I assume this is on the basis of mitchell returning to his best?
Otherwise the midfield depth is thin and speculative at best and a distinct lack of A and A pluses.
 

WWSD

Premium Platinum
Sep 7, 2009
19,314
37,726
AFL Club
Hawthorn
Other Teams
Sacramento Kings
I assume this is on the basis of mitchell returning to his best?
Otherwise the midfield depth is thin and speculative at best and a distinct lack of A and A pluses.
If the Hawks midfield is that bad, then they wouldn’t have beaten GWS, Collingwood, Geelong, West Coast, Adelaide and Port Adelaide without Mitchell.

Either the Hawks midfield is underrated or it’s as good as some of the other teams in the league.
 

Captain chaos

Club Legend
Jul 13, 2016
1,367
923
AFL Club
Geelong
If the Hawks midfield is that bad, then they wouldn’t have beaten GWS, Collingwood, Geelong, West Coast, Adelaide and Port Adelaide without Mitchell.

Either the Hawks midfield is underrated or it’s as good as some of the other teams in the league.
U r quoting two teams who missed the 8? North smashed the tigers as did adelaide.. are their midfields superior?
I would like to know the best six mids and which are A or A plus.
 

Roddy

Norm Smith Medallist
Jul 10, 2006
9,700
9,119
AFL Club
Hawthorn
Other Teams
Aussie Cricket team.
Oh man, do we occupy space the size of several MCGs in Cat fans heads, rent-free. The level of Hawk Derangement Syndrome in them is utterly astonishing...
 

(Log in to remove this ad.)

Scotland

TheBrownDog
May 5, 2006
54,166
57,569
AFL Club
West Coast
If the Hawks midfield is that bad, then they wouldn’t have beaten GWS, Collingwood, Geelong, West Coast, Adelaide and Port Adelaide without Mitchell.

Either the Hawks midfield is underrated or it’s as good as some of the other teams in the league.
The counter argument to any 'wouldn't have beaten team X' is 'wouldn't have lost to team Y'. Hawthorn lost to Essendon and St Kilda, hardly midfield powerhouses. The better teams are still separated by Ws and Ls after 22 games.

We had one of the 'worst' midfields going into 2018 and won the flag and now we have one of the 'best'. We have one of the best forward lines and scored 68 points in our last final. That's footy.
 

Pessimistic

TheBrownDog
Sep 13, 2000
71,781
30,928
AFL Club
Hawthorn
Other Teams
Horks
The counter argument to any 'wouldn't have beaten team X' is 'wouldn't have lost to team Y'. Hawthorn lost to Essendon and St Kilda, hardly midfield powerhouses. The better teams are still separated by Ws and Ls after 22 games.

We had one of the 'worst' midfields going into 2018 and won the flag and now we have one of the 'best'. We have one of the best forward lines and scored 68 points in our last final. That's footy.
they had serious problems lasting out a game till later in the season
 

4THAWN

Club Legend
Mar 25, 2019
1,485
1,740
AFL Club
Hawthorn
I would like to know the best six mids and which are A or A plus.
Mitchell (If he can get back to near his best he'll be more than a handy addition for our contested ball) Obvious A grader if near best
O'Meara (Should improve off last year with a more suitable role as Titch returns) - B grader currently, important to remember he's only played
Worpel (Will probably face a statistical decline due to Titch's return, but was our deserved BnF in 2019) - is closing in on becoming an A grader
Shiels (Tough-nut B grader and as a Geelong supporter you should know he's capable of being a damaging player himself)
Henderson (A grader in 2019, flourishing at the Hawks)
Smith (May be on the decline, but has certainly been an A grader throughout a fair chunk of his career)
Depth/Others include:
-Wingard (playing mid/forward I'd assume, definitely has the potential to be an A grader)
-Scully (one could argue he was an A grader in 2016/17, and should improve off last year following a proper preseason and no significant injuries)
-Cousins (C grader, solid depth option)
-Howe (C grader, solid depth option)
-Maginness (Can't evaluate at the minute)
 

Captain chaos

Club Legend
Jul 13, 2016
1,367
923
AFL Club
Geelong
Mitchell (If he can get back to near his best he'll be more than a handy addition for our contested ball) Obvious A grader if near best
O'Meara (Should improve off last year with a more suitable role as Titch returns) - B grader currently, important to remember he's only played
Worpel (Will probably face a statistical decline due to Titch's return, but was our deserved BnF in 2019) - is closing in on becoming an A grader
Shiels (Tough-nut B grader and as a Geelong supporter you should know he's capable of being a damaging player himself)
Henderson (A grader in 2019, flourishing at the Hawks)
Smith (May be on the decline, but has certainly been an A grader throughout a fair chunk of his career)
Depth/Others include:
-Wingard (playing mid/forward I'd assume, definitely has the potential to be an A grader)
-Scully (one could argue he was an A grader in 2016/17, and should improve off last year following a proper preseason and no significant injuries)
-Cousins (C grader, solid depth option)
-Howe (C grader, solid depth option)
-Maginness (Can't evaluate at the minute)
Fairly accurate..so not many right now who are A or A plus? Either they were, might be or could be , so that is my concern, just how good will the midfield be this year.
 

Top Bottom