Can Hawthorn succeed while ignoring the elite end of the draft?

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Scotland said:
2020 is next year, 2021 obviously the year after that.

How many missing pieces will make the current group a contender next year?
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I honestly think Hawthorn would have been a contender this year if not for Mitchell going down at the start of the season. It would have been rare for any club to dismiss themselves from challenging heading into this year, in my opinion.

Save for a few clubs with genuine list deficiencies that can't be overcome, there were quite a few that would have felt as though they were a chance if things went right. It's genuinely a very even competition.

The truth is that it's really bloody hard to pick who's going to get up and challenge based on how even it is. There's not going to be a side that wins premiership on the back of the depth of talent that Geelong 2007-2011 or Hawthorn 2012-2015 had.
 

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Ambrosia said:
You took "unders" because you're offer to Lewis gave you no room to negotiate. You can't offer players a pittance compared to what they'll get elsewhere and then expect to receive good compensation at the trade table.

Look at GC did this off season letting Hall go for nothing then happily delisting Lyons so he could get to Brisbane for nothing because the rival clubs offered them significantly more money.

Yes I agree Clarkson should be commended for giving the outgoing players his blessing and encouraging them to make the right decision for themselves but the notion that the Hawks took unders at the trade table for the good of their senior players is ludicrous.
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Ah no. Are you suggesting we low balled Lewis? He had 2 years from us, and wanted the 3 at the Dees at more coin. If we didn't facilitate the trade, he stays with us on 2 years at decent coin. Do you even know what we offered him coin wise?

He told Clarko he wanted Dees. We could have asked for more, or even walked from the deal. By then the media had a hold of it and it was a frenzy. We took unders to look after him and get him the deal he wanted. How do we benefit from the deal? We dont really. Other than bringing the cap down a bit.

Jordan helped give us 4 flags. We looked after him in this trade. Point blank.
 
rogiebear93 said:
I honestly think Hawthorn would have been a contender this year if not for Mitchell going down at the start of the season. It would have been rare for any club to dismiss themselves from challenging heading into this year, in my opinion.

Save for a few clubs with genuine list deficiencies that can't be overcome, there were quite a few that would have felt as though they were a chance if things went right. It's genuinely a very even competition.

The truth is that it's really bloody hard to pick who's going to get up and challenge based on how even it is. There's not going to be a side that wins premiership on the back of the depth of talent that Geelong 2007-2011 or Hawthorn 2012-2015 had.
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Disagree but not contending doesn't automatically mean winning 5 games and finishing bottom 4.

IMO if you added what Nugett suggested you would be around the mark, but, there's a bit of finger in the dike still to occur. Key posts are an area of weakness even with Roughead (32) and Frawley (31) still in the side. So they need to be replaced and complemented. Midfield is OK, I think last year proved that midfield ratings don't mean much.
 
Scotland said:
Disagree but not contending doesn't automatically mean winning 5 games and finishing bottom 4.

IMO if you added what Nugett suggested you would be around the mark, but, there's a bit of finger in the dike still to occur. Key posts are an area of weakness even with Roughead (32) and Frawley (31) still in the side. So they need to be replaced and complemented. Midfield is OK, I think last year proved that midfield ratings don't mean much.
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The pool of teams that could potentially contend is much larger than it has been previously. I doubt anyone saw Geelong doing what they've done for the first 7 rounds of the season on the back of who they brought in.

No huge improvements, yet they've gone from a point where they could have missed finals to looking like the team to beat. Realistically, if you're 3 good pieces away from winning a premiership in 2019, you're probably in the bottom 6.
 
TylerDurden said:
Ah no. Are you suggesting we low balled Lewis? He had 2 years from us, and wanted the 3 at the Dees at more coin. If we didn't facilitate the trade, he stays with us on 2 years at decent coin. Do you even know what we offered him coin wise?

He told Clarko he wanted Dees. We could have asked for more, or even walked from the deal. By then the media had a hold of it and it was a frenzy. We took unders to look after him and get him the deal he wanted. How do we benefit from the deal? We dont really. Other than bringing the cap down a bit.

Jordan helped give us 4 flags. We looked after him in this trade. Point blank.
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This isn't quite how it went down.

Jordy was contracted for one more year, Clarko went and saw him and said we can't promise you another contract after next year.

Melbourne came to the table with a 3 year deal, Jordy would have stayed if he got an extra year from Hawthorn. He probably would have gotten it in the end, but he was right to take the security of a 3 year deal over the current 1 year remaining on his Hawthorn deal.
 
HairyO said:
Averaged 1 free kick a game. Quite the expert, considering he averaged 4.5 tackles a game and got heaps of Holding the Ball frees.

Surely Poppy is the one to go to at Hawthorn for ducking. Youd even find a heap of people to agree.
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I always remember Cyril having a duck. It doesn’t mean I don’t rate him, in fact I’d have a forward line of Cyril’s if I could. Puopolo I haven’t noticed as much probably because Cyril was in everything.
 
Scotland said:
Disagree but not contending doesn't automatically mean winning 5 games and finishing bottom 4.

IMO if you added what Nugett suggested you would be around the mark, but, there's a bit of finger in the dike still to occur. Key posts are an area of weakness even with Roughead (32) and Frawley (31) still in the side. So they need to be replaced and complemented. Midfield is OK, I think last year proved that midfield ratings don't mean much.
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Your club averages about 2 good years for 1 horrible year over the last decade. You know better than anyway things can change in an instance for the bad or the good season to season. There is no perfect list, no nirvana, clubs just do the best they can with what they have and try to make their list a bit better than from the year before.

I'd say structures, game plan & effort are just as crucial if not more crucial than having a great list when it comes to winning a flag.

With that said, I have to agree that our KPP players at both ends are a concern. Internally there are huge wraps on Kosi but most young KPP players don't really get to the required consistent level until season 4 or 5 on the list.

But having a great spine isn't the be all and end all, Collingwood had no spine last year and were 2 minutes away from the whole thing.
 
rogiebear93 said:
The pool of teams that could potentially contend is much larger than it has been previously. I doubt anyone saw Geelong doing what they've done for the first 7 rounds of the season on the back of who they brought in.

No huge improvements, yet they've gone from a point where they could have missed finals to looking like the team to beat. Realistically, if you're 3 good pieces away from winning a premiership in 2019, you're probably in the bottom 6.
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I am of the belief that teams that are thereabouts flag wise but don’t get it done are always back in contention with some changes to the list or gameplan.

Dalhaus and Rohan have been really good for Geelong, Mitchell going down at Hawthorn doesn’t help and Wingard probably hasn’t done enough but Scrimshaw has been solid.

I don’t know what’s going on at Melbourne, but if we can address our outside game, forward entries and have a fit Lever & May I think we will be top 4.

Little tweaks make a big difference. Hawks are probably running out of time but could very well be back into top 4 in 2020 with Mitchell and a good off season acquisition.
 
Scotland said:
3 good hypothetical acquisitions, but whom? The AFL is a closed system and there aren't that many players on the market.

Midfielder I assume Coniglio as a FA as I've heard it 900 times.
KF... Patton?
KD...?
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Cogs and Patton are not certainties. While I admit I think they are a needed and would automatically fill them 2 spots, it’s wether or not they choose to stay, go elsewhere or come to the hawks. Sam Day from the suns is also a FA this year, he is a player that plays either end, would class him as serviceable. Or the Club looks at other serviceable players, for a potential trade.
 
Nugett said:
Cogs and Patton are not certainties. While I admit I think they are a needed and would automatically fill them 2 spots, it’s wether or not they choose to stay, go elsewhere or come to the hawks. Sam Day from the suns is also a FA this year, he is a player that plays either end, would class him as serviceable. Or the Club looks at other serviceable players, for a potential trade.
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No players are certainties, 99.999% of people on BigFooty are full of s**t and the media paid to regurgitate our s**t aren't much better. If every "certainty" came through you'd be lauding Dylan Shiel's clinical disposal and Tom Lynch would be kicking bags in brown and gold while Richmond had no forward line.

Not gonna lie, almost forgot Sam Day was on a list. Unremarkable player but big and strong. I think Thompson is a better option (if either are) but both haven't played all year due to injury. May would've been a great pick up but you're not trumping pick 6 without sacrificing another area of the team. Gold Coast have found a ruck in Witts and key defenders in Hombsch and Collins to go with their young talls. There are always players out there who can fill roles. Hawthorn have ended up with an undersized defence. Brand is big enough and old enough but not much chop, Mirra is too small and not that great, Lewis and Nash (not strictly defenders) green as grass, Frawley past his peak... so it's Stratton, Sicily etc. trying to fight up a division. If you can find someone like Tom Barrass (but not Tom Barrass, go away) who is a solid and dependable FB without needing to be a superstar or attack minded it would benefit the structure of the defence a lot.
 

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Abasi said:
Knowing Tyler for as long as I have, he would know how it went down.
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Tyler is normally pretty spot on with this stuff - but Jordy's old man on our board even told the story a few months after it all went down.
 
Chappyuk said:
More like hurt feelings.
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Is that a troll? because i can post a hurt pussycat from the 2008 grandfinal the tears were real
 
TheFourPillars said:
Is that a troll? because i can post a hurt pussycat from the 2008 grandfinal the tears were real
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The guy doesn't know how to post without trolling.
 
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