Can Malthouse coach????

[gocatsgo]

I see there are a lot of Eagles fans here and a few Collingwood.

Lets look at the facts!

An only average career at the Bulldogs, 1 finals appearance (Correct me if I'm wrong)

10 straight years of finals at WCE, 2 flags,

Burning start at Collingwood and now fading away. But that probably was expected.

My question is.....

How good were the 10 years in Perth?

Personally, I thought from 1991-1995, they were by far the best team going around. Yet they still only won 2 flags (against Geelong. DOH)

I believe the talent he had at his disposal would have won a flag no matter who coached them, McKenna, Matera, Jakovich, McIntosh, Worsfold, Sumich, Mainwaring, Lewis etc.

It is my belief that if Malthouse had have coached them to be attacking, they would have won more than the 2 flags, I believe Malthouse held them back and they could have been even better than they were.

THOUGHTS?????

 

[Bloodstained Angel]

At last !

Someone with the guts to get up and debunk the idea that Malthouse is a great coach. He is not.

The WCE sides he coached, particulary the 1990-95 squads were so chock-full of absolute champions that even if they had been coached by Donald Duck they still would have won a flag or two.

And of course as we have seen from Collingwood this year he is far from a miracle worker in fact I think he is floundering a little because in the absence of real quality players he is struggling to come up with meaningful ways of keeping the Pies competitive.

A coach is really only as good as the players he has to work with I guess and comparing Malthouse at the Weagles to Malthouse at Collingwood shows this footballing cliche to be quite correct.

 

[Jaffa]

Mick has to build the team before we find that out. If he can't do that in the current climate then you can say what you like.

I guess at least he took over a wooden spoon team and has put his credibility on the line. Other than Sheedy and probably Pagan who else would do that?

 

[Shinboners]

Any coach that can take a club to 3 Grand Finals and win 2 premierships out of 10 straight finals campaigns is, by definition, a great coach. Don't forget, the year before Malthouse took over, the same Eagles side got thrashed by Essendon by something like 20 odd goals at Windy Hill.

At the Doggies, he took a largely ordinary side to the finals. Meanwhile, with the Pies, you really cannot judge him until he's had two or three full seasons. Collingwood do have a very young list with plenty of players who have great potential, so let's wait and see what he does with them. After all, in the last few years of Matthews and under Shaw, the Pies let go of many young players who later became solid contributors at other clubs (taking a look at this week's lineups, there's Hotton at Carlton, Sanderson at Geelong, Woods at Hawthorn, James at Adelaide, Schauble at the Swans, Curley at the Bulldogs, and McCartney at North), so give Malthouse time to see if he can develop the kids properly.

 

[gocatsgo]

Shinboners, 10 straight finals campaigns and yet only 3 grand finals.

Not really a good record for a side with that wealth of talent.

Geelong had a limited talent yet still made 4 grand finals in 7 years, after 5 finals campaigns.

The eagles of 1990-95 were just as good as the Hawthorn sides of 1986-1991, yet Hawthorn played in four straight grand finals, 5 in 6 years and won 4 premierships.

I reckon the Eagles could have been similar to Hawthorn, but they were too defensive.

 

[hawkforce]

Gocatsgo,

please never use the terms Hawthorn; 80's; and "as good as" in the one sentence.

It is certain to start a nasty fracas!

 

[Eagle_Fan]

I think Mick is a good coach. Not a great coach, just good.
It's true that the team he had probably would have done well under any half-decent coach, but I think the difference was the people he brought with him, and the proffessionalism they developed. Remarkably we've still got some of it.

Jaffa & co., bear with him, because if given enough time he is good at developing youngsters. I think alot of people would have given up on Wirrapunda for example.

Take the recruiting staff he put together. They found Kemp and Heady in the 80's and 90's of the 1989/90 draft. Matera too. Brian Cook was vital to the early 90's success too (it's all been downhill since he left).
Mick and his merry(?) men made us realise that the Eagles weren't just the 'best of WA', they were one among 15(?) clubs, and had to prove they had earned they're place.
He has done so much for my club, that the question of whether we could have better isn't really relevant. As much as I love John Todd and the other coaches, Mick introduced us to the big league, and showed us it wasn't out of reach.

I think Freo could use the same. Reckon Barrassi would come out of retirement for a couple of seasons?

 

[Hawkforce]

A bad coach does not keep a side in the finals, guys.

Malthouse may not be able to save the Pies, but he was very good with the Weagles.

 

[sainter]

I think you have made good points Jaffa and Shinboner.

Firstly I can't stand the guy. Many bulldogs supporters I know will never forget his desertion of the team when the financial situation of the club in 1989 became apparent. But you have to acknowledge that he is a very good coach.

His record for the eagles speaks for itself. The bulldogs team was not a patch on the eagles players he had on his disposal. And with Collingwood, you can not judge a coach on his performance after 15 weeks. Sounds like something that St Kilda would do.

 

[Joel]

Ok here goes. Firstly, wait till 2002 to see the potential at Collingwood. DO NOT judge the team on what it has been playing like recently. Next, people are forgetting that Malthouse took over a team the finished last, last year! Cmon give him a chance! And don't say a team can make the finals 10 years based solely on skill, that is absolute crap.

 

[Dan26]

Of course he is a great coach.

Suffice to say, now that he has left, West Coast will probably miss the finals.

The team he has taken over (Collingwood) will probably double their win tally from the previous season.

10 consecutive finals campaigns at the Weagles.

Many people forget that with Footscray, they actually won more than they lost. With the Buldogs, his coaching record was 67 wins, 66 losses and a draw.

Now, with the talent the Doggies had at their disposal (i.e not much), that is very good work.

He's taking over last years wooden spooners, for christs sake. What do people expect ? The Pies are probably going to have 8 wins this year. Double what they had last year.

 

[Drakey]

I'm not convinced that Malthouse is a GREAT coach by any stretch.

The w/coast team he had was outstanding & I also beleive they should have made more of their opportunities 91-96.

I accept however, that they wern't helped by having to play some finals in Melbourne, which should have been played in Perth.

 

[kevin sooky]

Dan24, the Sookmeister agrees with you.

And just one word, I have had a go at you (only half-seriously) in the past, but basically apart from your pet topic, I agree with most things you say, or if I dont, at least you base your opinion on some form of logic, unlike much of what is said here.

So ignore the idiots, and even ignore the clowns like me (I only stir but dont abuse unless someone has a go at me first) but please let the pet topic go. it may do you some harm. Why dont you just look forward to the finals and enjoy the position you are in which I am sure supporters of the other 15 clubs would like to experience but never will.

The Sookmeister has spoken. I will now revert back to the usual bufoonery I display!

[This message has been edited by kevin sooky (edited 20 June 2000).]

 

[Eagle_Fan]

Dan- We're not going to miss the finals just because Mick left. There are a lot of reasons. I think MM sensed this and got out in time.

We should have done more in the second half of the decade

 

[Dan26]

Kevin Sooky,

Well, I'm touched. As I am typing this my eyes are welling up *sob*

Seriously, though thanks. But about my 'pet' topic as you put it, every now and then a new person comes on here, who needs to have the "proposal" explained to them. Then, they argue back (unjustly in my view), and with my disliking for NOT getting the last word, I then bite back.

It's an ongoing cycle, which may plague me until the day I die.

By the way, I have to state my "opinion" to you that Sydney and South Melbourne are one and the same. I neglected to get involved in you and BSA's tit for tat, but they are the same club.

In Los Angeles today, the Lakers won their 12th title. Six of those have been in L.A, while the first six were in Minneapolis. They are regarded as being the same team. The Minneapolis Lakers, after they moved to L.A, are regarded as the same franchise.

Just thought I'd say that.

 

[Joel]

I have to say Dan24 you are probably the best poster on this board except for a few comments. Your comments are usually well thought out, well done. It is my belief that you will see Mick (and are already seeing) do great things for the Pies, keep your eyes watching the Pies.

 

[Dan26]

Joel,

Malthouse will turn it around at some point, no doubt about it.

 

[magpiechick_5]

What the hell are you talking about i am a big collingwood fan and i have something to say to you shitheads! Malthouse is the bset coach going around and the reason we (Collingwood) are not winning is because of the team! its not the coach it's the team and i dare anyone to tell me different!!!!

 

[gocatsgo]

Everyone who barracks for Collingwood says he's a good coach, most that don't barrack for Collingwood say he's average.

I think he is only average.

Magpiechick5, Don't expect tooo many big scores in the next few years, expect to win a lot of games 12 goals to 10.

Does everyone else think that C'wood fans are under Eddie's spell as well?

 

[Mickys number]

no way - the bloke is a dud. Just coz Eddie McFATARSE has a 3some with him & Buckley.

 

[magpie_joffa]

Originally posted by gocatsgo
Everyone who barracks for Collingwood says he's a good coach, most that don't barrack for Collingwood say he's average.

I think he is only average.

Magpiechick5, Don't expect tooo many big scores in the next few years, expect to win a lot of games 12 goals to 10.

Does everyone else think that C'wood fans are under Eddie's spell as well?

WHY SHOULD EDDIE AND MALTHOUSE BOTHER YOU SO MUCH...I MEAN HAS IT ANYTHING TO DO WITH YOU BEING A GEELONG SUPPORTER WHY DONT YOU WORRY ABOUT YOUR CLUB AND OBVIOUSLY YOU MUST THINK SOMETHING IS GOING OK AT COLLINGWOOD OR WHY WOULD YOU BOTHER TO POST ABOUT US.

AHHH ITS GOOD FOR THE COMP AGAIN TO HAVE A WINNING COLLINGWOOD SIDE....IT CERTAINLY GIVES EVERYONE SOMETHING TO TALK ABOUT.

 

[PiesPremiers]

i cant believe this topic.
if he is not the best coach in the league, i want to know who is.
who would have thought, he could get collingwood up, and play in the finals this year?? we will be there this year! dont worry about that !! who would have thought?? nobody.. he has built the club from the ground up, after shaw left a thucking mess.
at WCE, he practically run the whole state. he is genius. people say he had alot of talent in the side. NO ********! who got them there? who set game plans, who spoke to them 7 days a week and made them good footballers????
if you cant see that he is a champion coach, and one of the greatest of all time, you should open your eyes!
along with sheedy, they will be remembered as 2 of the greats.. ever!

 

[FIGJAM]

Easy there PP! Best coach...no one can say!?!

That said I have zero problem putting four coaches far and above the rest, based on their past 10 year histories and the fact that they are coaches who revolutionise aspects of the game. These are merely my perspectives, which could be complete sh*te:

Sheedy - Has a clinker list at present, but even if he didn't, he would be getting plenty out of lesser players. Ironically, I think there are players on his list who are inevitably overrated as a result of being surrounded by some superstars and adhere stringently to the Coach's outstanding and exciting game plan.

Pagan - A task-master. Demands results to an outstanding effect. Has had an advantage of having some super players (namely one Wayne Carey), which has allowed him to mould a game plan that suited their structure. "Pagan's Paddock" was so good in the late 90's that we have this friggen flooding problem today!

Malthouse - The personal coach. Ask any past player and they will tell you how great a bloke this man is. Doesn't demand respect, but earns it by giving it. His game plan has always revolved around the existing personell, but has always had the common theme of rebounding the ball quickly from defence, with strong running players and not using the ball until an option presents itself. Is relishing playing with the Pies as he could clear the slate and recruit highly skilled youngsters which can play his power-running dream to perfection (eg. Ryan Lonie akin to Guy McKenna). When the game plan clicks, it really clicks (ie. Pies v Melbourne, Dogs, part Bombers, 2nd half Saints & whole Port).

Blight - This guy gets the most out of lesser players. Was lucky to have a fairly tidy list when he went to Adelaide. I am still shocked that they won either of these flags, but I attribute this fact to Blighty as a coach. Strong knowledge of the game, but is more a motivational/mental coach. St Kilda was supposed to have the greatest recruiting regime of all time, but hasn't started as well as the Pies in 2000. Time will tell if Blight's motivation and confidence can match Malty's hard-at-it power running game plan. Given the similar situation between the clubs in the past two years, it will be interesting to watch!

The absolute best thing about these coaches is that despite the fact that Sheedy has mucked around with it, the coaches play man on man and an exciting running play.

Answer to question: Can Malthouse coach? Sh*t Yeah!!!

 

[PiesPremiers]

Originally posted by FIGJAM
Easy there PP! Best coach...no one can say!?!

That said I have zero problem putting four coaches far and above the rest, based on their past 10 year histories and the fact that they are coaches who revolutionise aspects of the game. These are merely my perspectives, which could be complete sh*te:

Sheedy - Has a clinker list at present, but even if he didn't, he would be getting plenty out of lesser players. Ironically, I think there are players on his list who are inevitably overrated as a result of being surrounded by some superstars and adhere stringently to the Coach's outstanding and exciting game plan.

Pagan - A task-master. Demands results to an outstanding effect. Has had an advantage of having some super players (namely one Wayne Carey), which has allowed him to mould a game plan that suited their structure. "Pagan's Paddock" was so good in the late 90's that we have this friggen flooding problem today!

Malthouse - The personal coach. Ask any past player and they will tell you how great a bloke this man is. Doesn't demand respect, but earns it by giving it. His game plan has always revolved around the existing personell, but has always had the common theme of rebounding the ball quickly from defence, with strong running players and not using the ball until an option presents itself. Is relishing playing with the Pies as he could clear the slate and recruit highly skilled youngsters which can play his power-running dream to perfection (eg. Ryan Lonie akin to Guy McKenna). When the game plan clicks, it really clicks (ie. Pies v Melbourne, Dogs, part Bombers, 2nd half Saints & whole Port).

Blight - This guy gets the most out of lesser players. Was lucky to have a fairly tidy list when he went to Adelaide. I am still shocked that they won either of these flags, but I attribute this fact to Blighty as a coach. Strong knowledge of the game, but is more a motivational/mental coach. St Kilda was supposed to have the greatest recruiting regime of all time, but hasn't started as well as the Pies in 2000. Time will tell if Blight's motivation and confidence can match Malty's hard-at-it power running game plan. Given the similar situation between the clubs in the past two years, it will be interesting to watch!

The absolute best thing about these coaches is that despite the fact that Sheedy has mucked around with it, the coaches play man on man and an exciting running play.

Answer to question: Can Malthouse coach? Sh*t Yeah!!!

great post figjam, you summarised every coach almost perfectly..
St Kilda recruited big names, eg hamill and gehrig, who really have done nothing!
But malthouse knew what he need to build the club, and instead of worrying about the NAME, he went after the player.
he is a terrific judge of a good footballer malthouse. he did it at west coast, when he picked up all their young players, who are now experienced players.
he is a great coach, and i hope he stays with the pies forever! my prediction, another 8 years, after this one, and 3 flags.

 

[Captain Random]

To say that a drover's dog could have taken the early-90's Eagles to a flag just totally ignores reality. The team Malthouse inherited was, thanks to the efforts of Todd and his staff, chock full of promising youngsters - not stars. He gave them professionalism, accountability and the self-belief that they could beat any team in the comp. And they did. Twice in three years.

As for whether the Eagles should have won more than two flags, well, so much of winning a premiership is having the cattle, the desire etc, and then there are the factors totally out of your control. Call it fate, karma, dumb luck. For example, the Eagles (from memory) were helped by losses in the first round of the 1992 finals, giving them another home game and assisting the run for the flag. On the other hand, I've always seen the 1996 season as the "one that got away" thanks to the MCG rule. If the Eagles had played at Subiaco, I'm sure they would have won.

And Malthouse today? There's no doubt that the Eagles marked time in the last years of the Malthouse reign when Mick was way too negative in his approach. He really stayed on for two years too long, but the club wouldn't have sacked him at gunpoint. Now he's getting results at Collingwood, and it appears that the change has done him good.

Bottom line, if you're looking for a coach who can take a promising list and turn them into champions, Mick is your man. If that's not a great coach, what is?