Can we adapt away from the territory game

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Enviable Tradition

Enviable Tradition

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Oct 12, 2007
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The Hills
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We have been playing a territory game for years. A bit like soccer, get numbers behind the ball, get the ball in and lock it in.

It worked to a degree pre 2022 (especially against lower ranked teams) but ultimately failed.

But 2022 though as teams adapted to the new stand rules and starting attacking through the zones it fell apart. We stuck with it and paid the price.

So how much of that game plan was Monty? Can Carr bring something new (I cant say I know what Freo's game plan was in 2022).

Can we develop a new more attacking game plan in 2023 and actually hit up our forwards rather than bombing it.

And even if we do will we be just 2 years behind the faster adapting teams anyway and so still not good enough game plan wise?

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Carrying all the slowpokes of Dixon, Lycett and Jonas will make it hard to play attacking football, which essentially means footspeed and quick direct movement.

If we don’t play them, then probably yes we can change the way we play.
 

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The best teams play this way. Melbourne, Geelong, Fremantle. Moving away from it would be dumb because as it currently stands it is how you win flags.
 
Port85 said:
Carrying all the slowpokes of Dixon, Lycett and Jonas will make it hard to play attacking football, which essentially means footspeed and quick direct movement.

If we don’t play them, then probably yes we can change the way we play.
Click to expand...
Recruiting of sinn was to put speed on the ball. Interesting to here a report of where at this year.
 
Does the possession game require our forward entries be poo? With Marshall, Georgie and Dixon we should be hitting our forwards on leads. We should resemble West Coast with Kennedy/Darling.
If we can combine the possession game with more direct forward entries, I'd be happy.
 
Burningleviathan said:
Does the possession game require our forward entries be poo? With Marshall, Georgie and Dixon we should be hitting our forwards on leads. We should resemble West Coast with Kennedy/Darling.
If we can combine the possession game with more direct forward entries, I'd be happy.
Click to expand...

Kick it to da pocket so we can lock it in and force a stoppage 👍🥴
 
dirty2 said:
Hinkley doesn't adapt.. he wouldn't change a thing.
Click to expand...

Chris Scott completely revamped Geelong's whole game after 2021. They won the flag.

Dumbshit McGee doesn't change a thing and we finish 11th lol

How the * does he still have a job
 
JakeNeadeFan said:
The best teams play this way. Melbourne, Geelong, Fremantle. Moving away from it would be dumb because as it currently stands it is how you win flags.
Click to expand...
Melbourne yes but their mids and defence were so good it didn't matter in 2021.

In 2022 it didn't hold up.

Geelong changed to a much more attacking game plan and their i50s were far faster and better than ours.

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I don't know if the territory game was Monty, he really seemed to be the guy who brought us a modern team defence/accountability mindset.

The last two games of the year aren't a great indicator, season over, ordinary sides and all that. But we did seem to try to play with more run and freedom in those games.

The crows thought they were a genuine chance of knocking us off, and they had the incentive of being able to say they finished equal with us on number of wins. They will take any win they can. But we blew them into the weeds in the second half of that game.

The club is not unaware of the issues around the bombing of the ball into the F50, hence the move of better ball users like Rozee and Butters into the centre.

So short answer is yes, we can adapt to a more attacking run the lines type game, at least as a more priority style, and not so much the stodgy territory game.
 
Ford Fairlane said:
I don't know if the territory game was Monty, he really seemed to be the guy who brought us a modern team defence/accountability mindset.

The last two games of the year aren't a great indicator, season over, ordinary sides and all that. But we did seem to try to play with more run and freedom in those games.

The crows thought they were a genuine chance of knocking us off, and they had the incentive of being able to say they finished equal with us on number of wins. They will take any win they can. But we blew them into the weeds in the second half of that game.

The club is not unaware of the issues around the bombing of the ball into the F50, hence the move of better ball users like Rozee and Butters into the centre.

So short answer is yes, we can adapt to a more attacking run the lines type game, at least as a more priority style, and not so much the stodgy territory game.
Click to expand...
Maybe I should have said WILL we.

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Chris Scott said that they didn't change much of anything at Geelong in 2022 - in fact, he was bemused that the media thought they were doing something different. And if you look through their historical stats, you can see that they played the same attacking football in 2013 and 2016 but didn't get any reward.

Inside 50 team/opponent differential for Geelong (grand finalist in bold):

2011 - 1st with +14 (premiers) - next best was Collingwood with +13.6
2012 - 3rd with +8.6 - Richmond (+9.5) and Hawthorn (+14.1) were better
2013 - 1st with +13.6 - Hawthorn were next best with +8.6
2014 - 6th with +4.2 - Fremantle (+4.9), Essendon (+5.8), Hawthorn (+8.4), Sydney (+8.9) and Port Adelaide (+10.7) were better
2015 - 10th with -0.6 - Hawthorn (+12.3) and West Coast (+10.1) were miles in front of the competition
2016 - 1st with +12.1 - Western Bulldogs (+10.0) were second
2017 - 9th with +2.2 - Richmond (+5.3), Adelaide (+7.2) and Port Adelaide (+10.3) were better
2018 - 7th with +1.2 - this was most definitely an aberration year. Richmond (+10.2) and Melbourne (+12.3) should have played in the grand final, the same way Hawthorn and West Coast did in 2015. They were miles in front of everyone. Instead, we got West Coast (+2.3) defeating Collingwood (+4.5)
2019 - 6th with +2.9 - Hawthorn (+3.5), Brisbane (+4.2), Western Bulldogs (+5.0), Richmond (+6.3) and Port Adelaide (+9.5) were better
2020 - 4th with +4.8 - Brisbane (+5.3), Richmond (+8.0) and Port Adelaide (+9.6) were better
2021 - 3rd with +5.8 - Melbourne (+6.8) and Western Bulldogs (+7.5) were better
2022 - 1st with +12.8 (premiers) - next best was Melbourne with +7.5. Sydney was 7th with +3.4

Four times Geelong has led the league in inside 50 differential, and twice they have been premiers because of it. Note that the grand finalists usually are in the top four for this stat. The only exception are defensively minded teams like Ross Lyon's Fremantle or Sydney teams coached by Longmire (both Lyon and Longmire were students of Roos).

Our game style is perfectly fine. Since 2011, being top four for inside 50 differential has resulted in 17 of a possible 24 teams making the grand final. Our issue has been the same as it has always been - speed of execution forward of center. As for our defence:

Thomas Stewart - 18th for meters gained per game with 489.05
Zach Tuohy - 40th for meters gained per game with 404.58
Zach Guthrie - 119th for meters gained per game with 312.76
Mark Blicavs - 252nd for meters gained per game with 224.75
Tom Atkins - 256th for meters gained per game with 222.24
Mark O'Connor - 284th for meters gained per game with 203.18
Jake Kolodjashnij - 353rd for meters gained per game with 162.61

2019.17 meters gained per game on average generated out of defence

vs

Ryan Burton - 16th for meters gained per game with 500.45
Dan Houston - 56th for meters gained per game with 384.76
Riley Bonner - 58th for meters gained per game with 380.00
Darcy Byrne-Jones - 156th for meters gained per game with 283.62
Aliir Aliir - 309th for meters gained per game with 188.63
Thomas Jonas - 347th for meters gained per game with 166.71
Tom Clurey - 408th for meters gained per game with 133.23

2037.4 meters gained per game on average generated out of defence

Our defence is not the issue. It's the players who are meant to deliver the ball inside 50, which is why we will stack up on forward flankers at the draft and maybe, hopefully, find a key defender in the style of Tom Stewart who can screen off and attack.
 
we dont have the skilled players to play a different style

we cant play the geelong style, we would turn it over every 3rd possie

until we have a side loaded with skills we are stuck with our current gameplan or a similiar one
 
Janus said:
Chris Scott said that they didn't change much of anything at Geelong in 2022 - in fact, he was bemused that the media thought they were doing something different. And if you look through their historical stats, you can see that they played the same attacking football in 2013 and 2016 but didn't get any reward.
Click to expand...
They moved the ball faster in 2022 compared to the previous 2 season. Less control more chaos. It was a subtle improvement, not a mass change. So Scott is correct that they didn't change much.
 
Last edited:
Burningleviathan said:
Does the possession game require our forward entries be poo? With Marshall, Georgie and Dixon we should be hitting our forwards on leads. We should resemble West Coast with Kennedy/Darling.
If we can combine the possession game with more direct forward entries, I'd be happy.
Click to expand...
Georgi fumbles leads far too often at the moment but it's fixable and he already has the movement and leading technique going for him. Dixon, however, doesn't seem to have the forward craft i50: his leads are not timed well plus he doesn't create the separation that a player of his size and strength should.

This compounds the problem since I agree our forward entries are largely rubbish.
 
Windy Cindy said:
we dont have the skilled players to play a different style

we cant play the geelong style, we would turn it over every 3rd possie

until we have a side loaded with skills we are stuck with our current gameplan or a similiar one
Click to expand...
🤔 Don't most teams run at 65-70% disposal efficient... So every team turns it over every 3rd disposal 😝
 
Nobody here can seem to agree on whether it's our mids who can't deliver or the forwards who don't / can't lead or take a mark. Bit of chicken and the egg.
 
johnnysix said:
Nobody here can seem to agree on whether it's our mids who can't deliver or the forwards who don't / can't lead or take a mark. Bit of chicken and the egg.
Click to expand...
im Confident that we clean up our delivery our forwards will take marks

we stop wines from kicking into our forward line and our delivery automatically improves and our forwards will take marks.

hard to mark a ball that is kicked 5 metres over your head or bounces 5 metres in front
 
Janus said:
Chris Scott said that they didn't change much of anything at Geelong in 2022 - in fact, he was bemused that the media thought they were doing something different. And if you look through their historical stats, you can see that they played the same attacking football in 2013 and 2016 but didn't get any reward.

Inside 50 team/opponent differential for Geelong (grand finalist in bold):

2011 - 1st with +14 (premiers) - next best was Collingwood with +13.6
2012 - 3rd with +8.6 - Richmond (+9.5) and Hawthorn (+14.1) were better
2013 - 1st with +13.6 - Hawthorn were next best with +8.6
2014 - 6th with +4.2 - Fremantle (+4.9), Essendon (+5.8), Hawthorn (+8.4), Sydney (+8.9) and Port Adelaide (+10.7) were better
2015 - 10th with -0.6 - Hawthorn (+12.3) and West Coast (+10.1) were miles in front of the competition
2016 - 1st with +12.1 - Western Bulldogs (+10.0) were second
2017 - 9th with +2.2 - Richmond (+5.3), Adelaide (+7.2) and Port Adelaide (+10.3) were better
2018 - 7th with +1.2 - this was most definitely an aberration year. Richmond (+10.2) and Melbourne (+12.3) should have played in the grand final, the same way Hawthorn and West Coast did in 2015. They were miles in front of everyone. Instead, we got West Coast (+2.3) defeating Collingwood (+4.5)
2019 - 6th with +2.9 - Hawthorn (+3.5), Brisbane (+4.2), Western Bulldogs (+5.0), Richmond (+6.3) and Port Adelaide (+9.5) were better
2020 - 4th with +4.8 - Brisbane (+5.3), Richmond (+8.0) and Port Adelaide (+9.6) were better
2021 - 3rd with +5.8 - Melbourne (+6.8) and Western Bulldogs (+7.5) were better
2022 - 1st with +12.8 (premiers) - next best was Melbourne with +7.5. Sydney was 7th with +3.4

Four times Geelong has led the league in inside 50 differential, and twice they have been premiers because of it. Note that the grand finalists usually are in the top four for this stat. The only exception are defensively minded teams like Ross Lyon's Fremantle or Sydney teams coached by Longmire (both Lyon and Longmire were students of Roos).

Our game style is perfectly fine. Since 2011, being top four for inside 50 differential has resulted in 17 of a possible 24 teams making the grand final. Our issue has been the same as it has always been - speed of execution forward of center. As for our defence:

Thomas Stewart - 18th for meters gained per game with 489.05
Zach Tuohy - 40th for meters gained per game with 404.58
Zach Guthrie - 119th for meters gained per game with 312.76
Mark Blicavs - 252nd for meters gained per game with 224.75
Tom Atkins - 256th for meters gained per game with 222.24
Mark O'Connor - 284th for meters gained per game with 203.18
Jake Kolodjashnij - 353rd for meters gained per game with 162.61

2019.17 meters gained per game on average generated out of defence

vs

Ryan Burton - 16th for meters gained per game with 500.45
Dan Houston - 56th for meters gained per game with 384.76
Riley Bonner - 58th for meters gained per game with 380.00
Darcy Byrne-Jones - 156th for meters gained per game with 283.62
Aliir Aliir - 309th for meters gained per game with 188.63
Thomas Jonas - 347th for meters gained per game with 166.71
Tom Clurey - 408th for meters gained per game with 133.23

2037.4 meters gained per game on average generated out of defence

Our defence is not the issue. It's the players who are meant to deliver the ball inside 50, which is why we will stack up on forward flankers at the draft and maybe, hopefully, find a key defender in the style of Tom Stewart who can screen off and attack.
Click to expand...

I agree that it's not really a rebounding issue, and we have plenty of perfectly good rebounders who use the ball pretty well.

We're regularly at the top off the I50 differential ladder because we've played a style that has prioritised I50s without considering what happens when the ball gets in there. Every bit a territory based gameplan. In 2019 we were top of the I50 differential ladder and missed the 8.

We're proof that you can't hardcore moneyball in AFL football and be successful. Having good raw clearance and I50 differential numbers, and seemingly basing our game around getting good raw numbers in those categories hasn't given us success. It works well against poor teams who we can simply outclass, and doesn't work against good teams because they figure out ways to mitigate these advantages and beat you.

You can call it "speed of execution" or whatever you want. Players move the ball forward with more speed and accuracy when they are well drilled in a plan to move the ball forward. When players aren't sure where their teammates are going to be, they hesitate and turn the ball over.
 
johnnysix said:
Nobody here can seem to agree on whether it's our mids who can't deliver or the forwards who don't / can't lead or take a mark. Bit of chicken and the egg.
Click to expand...

It's both, and neither.

Players look cleaner and more skilled when they are well drilled in a coherent plan they understand. They know what their role is, they know where they need to move and what they need to do, and they know where their teammates will be and what they will do.

We've gotten marginally better because we now pick a tall forward line consistently, which gives the ball carrier more options and allows them to move the ball faster because they can immediately see contests that aren't a disadvantage. Prior to 2020 we played short forward lines or forward lines where 1 or more talls weren't natural or talented at key forward play.

As soon as you hesitate, the defender will close down the space and halve the contest or intercept.
 
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