Can we Afford both De Goey and Grundy

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Richard Condon
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De Goey, Stephenson are Moore are three I'd like to retain and I agree after Grundy based on age and projected career value they're the most valuable long term pieces the club have. However they are players where if what I perceived was overs was on offer I wouldn't rule out a trade. If Gold Coast approached with an offer of Lukosius, Rankine and their 2019 and 2020 first round picks for two of De Goey, Stephenson and Moore. I'm doing that deal. And maybe they get desperate and want to make a splash? Who knows?”

I’m very confused from your above paragraph from your post above.

Why would we trade top line talent in the hope other top line talent at least equals what we have?

My observation is that top line high grade players only get traded out when:
They absolutely want to leave themselves, there’s a terrible breakdown in player / coach,; playing group breakdown or a club stuffs up dreadfully with salary cap.

De Goey? You can’t get much better, we have him, he’s young, he’s a freak hence you hold onto like grim death.

Moore and Stephenson why trade them out in the hope you get something remotely like them. Never mind it would be a few years to see the outcome.

That’s we’d get Lukosious and Rankine to boot would be a win, but the problem to me is once they establish themselves (a few years) we might find our window closed and shutters are up.

And using the logic of trading upgrades wouldn’t they then be pieces in a few years we can trade again so we can go around to get the next new potential stars. In other words a perpetual cycle of upgrading and trading but when do you have bed with results being flags.
 

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I spoke to a guy who works for the club in a fairly distant role. He told me Moore Snr has/had a new lady in Sydney and was moving up there and wanted his son (who he manages) to move up with him.
I equal parts trust and don't trust the story.
Peter doesn't manage Darcy anymore, and hasn't for a while. Liam Pickering does.
 
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Knightmare

De Goey, Stephenson are Moore are three I'd like to retain and I agree after Grundy based on age and projected career value they're the most valuable long term pieces the club have. However they are players where if what I perceived was overs was on offer I wouldn't rule out a trade. If Gold Coast approached with an offer of Lukosius, Rankine and their 2019 and 2020 first round picks for two of De Goey, Stephenson and Moore. I'm doing that deal. And maybe they get desperate and want to make a splash? Who knows?”

I’m very confused from your above paragraph from your post above.

Why would we trade top line talent in the hope other top line talent at least equals what we have?

My observation is that top line high grade players only get traded out when:
They absolutely want to leave themselves, there’s a terrible breakdown in player / coach,; playing group breakdown or a club stuffs up dreadfully with salary cap.

De Goey? You can’t get much better, we have him, he’s young, he’s a freak hence you hold onto like grim death.

Moore and Stephenson why trade them out in the hope you get something remotely like them. Never mind it would be a few years to see the outcome.

That’s we’d get Lukosious and Rankine to boot would be a win, but the problem to me is once they establish themselves (a few years) we might find our window closed and shutters are up.

And using the logic of trading upgrades wouldn’t they then be pieces in a few years we can trade again so we can go around to get the next new potential stars. In other words a perpetual cycle of upgrading and trading but when do you have bed with results being flags.
Rankine has also made no secret on his Instagram of how much he misses SA.
 

TradeDraft

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I spoke to a guy who works for the club in a fairly distant role. He told me Moore Snr has/had a new lady in Sydney and was moving up there and wanted his son (who he manages) to move up with him.
I equal parts trust and don't trust the story.
Peter is no longer Darcy's Manager
 
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The evidence would be if Grundy missed games.

Fortunately for Collingwood he played all 26 games in 2018 and has yet to miss a game this year also.

The most recent time Grundy has missed games (rounds 21/22 2017) Collingwood lost. Round 1 2016 (only game that season Grundy played) Collingwood lost. And Grundy during those years wasn't on the level he has been in 18/19.

In my view Collingwood have two definitely elite players. Grundy and De Goey.

Crisp was elite last year but he's still convincing me he is again this year. Howe in 17/18 I considered elite but he's probably not quite of that standard this year. None of Collingwood's mids are elite anymore. Sidebottom was the one elite mid last year but has dropped away this year. Treloar of the mids this year is the closest mid to elite but not quite elite for mine as a mid I wouldn't categorise as best 10 by position and would rate somewhere around that 20 mark.

Grundy is the completely indispensable where there is no deal that would reasonably be offered where it would be worthwhile trading him. Adelaide or Port would have to say - any five from our list, take whoever you want for me to think about that deal, or substituting one of those players for a first round pick. And of course they're not doing that.

De Goey, Stephenson are Moore are three I'd like to retain and I agree after Grundy based on age and projected career value they're the most valuable long term pieces the club have. However they are players where if what I perceived was overs was on offer I wouldn't rule out a trade. If Gold Coast approached with an offer of Lukosius, Rankine and their 2019 and 2020 first round picks for two of De Goey, Stephenson and Moore. I'm doing that deal. And maybe they get desperate and want to make a splash? Who knows?
We don't need them all to be elite, they just need to be high grade players. Look at Hawthorns premiership side, not many guys were ranked in the best 5-10 of their position when Buddy left and yet they were still successful.

As for the trade for Lukosius, I know you love this kid, but for where we are at with the list we have, there is zero point in going backwards short term. That is a trade we should never do.

We have Treloar, Adams, Crisp, Grundy, Stephenson, DeGoey, Maynard, Moore, Langdon, Elliott, Phillips and WHE all around the prime of their careers, these are guys that we should try very hard to keep together as they will likely lead us to finals more often than not over the next 5 years.

One thing that really sucks is I was bullish Sier would be in that group too before the season started. He has debit been the biggest negative of the year so far.
 

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We can keep the lot of them just like other clubs do.

Caveat: the mother of all offers. But even that is no certainty as the other club will have to cut deeply into their own.

Remember everyone has a salary cap that must operate within a small range of space.
 

Knightmare

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Knightmare

De Goey, Stephenson are Moore are three I'd like to retain and I agree after Grundy based on age and projected career value they're the most valuable long term pieces the club have. However they are players where if what I perceived was overs was on offer I wouldn't rule out a trade. If Gold Coast approached with an offer of Lukosius, Rankine and their 2019 and 2020 first round picks for two of De Goey, Stephenson and Moore. I'm doing that deal. And maybe they get desperate and want to make a splash? Who knows?”

I’m very confused from your above paragraph from your post above.

Why would we trade top line talent in the hope other top line talent at least equals what we have?

My observation is that top line high grade players only get traded out when:
They absolutely want to leave themselves, there’s a terrible breakdown in player / coach,; playing group breakdown or a club stuffs up dreadfully with salary cap.

De Goey? You can’t get much better, we have him, he’s young, he’s a freak hence you hold onto like grim death.

Moore and Stephenson why trade them out in the hope you get something remotely like them. Never mind it would be a few years to see the outcome.

That’s we’d get Lukosious and Rankine to boot would be a win, but the problem to me is once they establish themselves (a few years) we might find our window closed and shutters are up.

And using the logic of trading upgrades wouldn’t they then be pieces in a few years we can trade again so we can go around to get the next new potential stars. In other words a perpetual cycle of upgrading and trading but when do you have bed with results being flags.
Collingwood have an aging list (second oldest in the competition behind Hawthorn) and need more quality youth. Lukosius fits Collingwood's playing list optimally as a player in a short kicking, high possession system who can get you 10 marks a game and start meaningful offensive drives himself. Rankine as a forward/mid also brings something very different but helpful as a freakish ground level player with a complete game. Gold Coast isn't a club that can get the most out of either of them. Collingwood is the optimal spot for both to have their talents maximised. Add two high first round picks to them and that better balances the club's aging list and creates much needed list flexibility with just fitting Grundy and De Goey over the long run a task. I'd see such a deal as entirely one sided towards Collingwood.

Where my evaluation primarily differs is I view Lukosius and Rankine as players who can play and produce today. You don't need to wait. Lukosius on Collingwood in a gameplan as present where there is lots of short kicks and overpossessing and honour his leads is ideally suited and he can be as good as any in the competition. It's not only those 10 marks a game but he has potentially best in competition vision and kick placement and could have the highest % of his kicks from anywhere around the ground leading towards scoring opportunities - whether he marks it on half-back or is kicking i50. On Gold Coast where they continually ignore his leads and really underpossess and try to run it from defence and he's not going to fulfill his potential there and will continue to look ordinary unless they radically change their style of game and build their offensive ball movement around him.

De Goey is one of the better players in the competition and can be a multi time All-Australian general forward. Stephenson and Moore also plausibly could. Overall I'd categorise the three as players who at seasons end could be overvalued commodities. De Goey some are talking about like he's Ablett and the best in the game (he's neither of those things). Stephenson fresh off winning the Rising Star and looking like he will have another exceptionally strong season some may view as the best from the 2017 draft (I don't believe he'll be a best 3 player to come out of the 2017 draft) and Moore if he gets through the season healthy and continues to build on his present form could become an overvalued commodity from the standpoint that some may forget about the injury risks that come with him and the chance you may not get games from him.

Comparing those guys to Lukosius and Rankine (the two best talents drafted in the last few years) and I'd consider if it was Stephenson/Moore doing that deal straight up. Give me Gold Coast's two first rounders and it becomes a no brainer with the pointy end of the draft this year and next year looking good and if necessary those picks can become liquid assets that can very easily be flipped for something better or more immediate that can be considered.
 

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Knightmare

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We don't need them all to be elite, they just need to be high grade players. Look at Hawthorns premiership side, not many guys were ranked in the best 5-10 of their position when Buddy left and yet they were still successful.

As for the trade for Lukosius, I know you love this kid, but for where we are at with the list we have, there is zero point in going backwards short term. That is a trade we should never do.

We have Treloar, Adams, Crisp, Grundy, Stephenson, DeGoey, Maynard, Moore, Langdon, Elliott, Phillips and WHE all around the prime of their careers, these are guys that we should try very hard to keep together as they will likely lead us to finals more often than not over the next 5 years.

One thing that really sucks is I was bullish Sier would be in that group too before the season started. He has debit been the biggest negative of the year so far.
I agree with you on Sier that he's someone that needs to play when he can.

Collingwood's midfield is unimpressive at the moment. Despite Grundy's dominance Collingwood don't have a dominant stoppage player. Either he or Wills really need to come in and hopefully one or the other can turn things around for us through there.

Largely agree with you on that core group and you want to keep all those guys ultimately. It's just a case of if the deal is well overs on the level where you ask yourself 'they're offering that?' that's when I'd be open to pulling the trigger on a deal.
 

TradeDraft

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I agree with you on Sier that he's someone that needs to play when he can.

Collingwood's midfield is unimpressive at the moment. Despite Grundy's dominance Collingwood don't have a dominant stoppage player. Either he or Wills really need to come in and hopefully one or the other can turn things around for us through there.

Largely agree with you on that core group and you want to keep all those guys ultimately. It's just a case of if the deal is well overs on the level where you ask yourself 'they're offering that?' that's when I'd be open to pulling the trigger on a deal.
Shows we Recurting to many Similar Players
 

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Collingwood have an aging list (second oldest in the competition behind Hawthorn) and need more quality youth. Lukosius fits Collingwood's playing list optimally as a player in a short kicking, high possession system who can get you 10 marks a game and start meaningful offensive drives himself. Rankine as a forward/mid also brings something very different but helpful as a freakish ground level player with a complete game. Gold Coast isn't a club that can get the most out of either of them. Collingwood is the optimal spot for both to have their talents maximised. Add two high first round picks to them and that better balances the club's aging list and creates much needed list flexibility with just fitting Grundy and De Goey over the long run a task. I'd see such a deal as entirely one sided towards Collingwood.

Where my evaluation primarily differs is I view Lukosius and Rankine as players who can play and produce today. You don't need to wait. Lukosius on Collingwood in a gameplan as present where there is lots of short kicks and overpossessing and honour his leads is ideally suited and he can be as good as any in the competition. It's not only those 10 marks a game but he has potentially best in competition vision and kick placement and could have the highest % of his kicks from anywhere around the ground leading towards scoring opportunities - whether he marks it on half-back or is kicking i50. On Gold Coast where they continually ignore his leads and really underpossess and try to run it from defence and he's not going to fulfill his potential there and will continue to look ordinary unless they radically change their style of game and build their offensive ball movement around him.

De Goey is one of the better players in the competition and can be a multi time All-Australian general forward. Stephenson and Moore also plausibly could. Overall I'd categorise the three as players who at seasons end could be overvalued commodities. De Goey some are talking about like he's Ablett and the best in the game (he's neither of those things). Stephenson fresh off winning the Rising Star and looking like he will have another exceptionally strong season some may view as the best from the 2017 draft (I don't believe he'll be a best 3 player to come out of the 2017 draft) and Moore if he gets through the season healthy and continues to build on his present form could become an overvalued commodity from the standpoint that some may forget about the injury risks that come with him and the chance you may not get games from him.

Comparing those guys to Lukosius and Rankine (the two best talents drafted in the last few years) and I'd consider if it was Stephenson/Moore doing that deal straight up. Give me Gold Coast's two first rounders and it becomes a no brainer with the pointy end of the draft this year and next year looking good and if necessary those picks can become liquid assets that can very easily be flipped for something better or more immediate that can be considered.
It's the kind of mega trade you only see in video games. The ground would shake and open up at Marvel and swallow everyone if such a thing went down.
 

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nahnah

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De Goey, Stephenson are Moore are three I'd like to retain and I agree after Grundy based on age and projected career value they're the most valuable long term pieces the club have. However they are players where if what I perceived was overs was on offer I wouldn't rule out a trade. If Gold Coast approached with an offer of Lukosius, Rankine and their 2019 and 2020 first round picks for two of De Goey, Stephenson and Moore. I'm doing that deal. And maybe they get desperate and want to make a splash? Who knows?
Firstly, you are insane.
Secondly, De Goey, Stevo and Moore have to agree to the trade.. they won't.
Thirdly, we are in our premiership window and you want to trade away those players for 2 first year players and draft picks.
 

sirlothie

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Firstly, you are insane.
Secondly, De Goey, Stevo and Moore have to agree to the trade.. they won't.
Thirdly, we are in our premiership window and you want to trade away those players for 2 first year players and draft picks.
Gold Coast wouldn't do it either, that's four top 5 draft picks in a team desperate to build something.
 

OniAu

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Firstly, you are insane.
Secondly, De Goey, Stevo and Moore have to agree to the trade.. they won't.
Thirdly, we are in our premiership window and you want to trade away those players for 2 first year players and draft picks.
Biggest myth and over reaction in the footy world is "youth is better"

As someone said , trading a proven star/talent to be replaced with potentially a young star/talent is such a huge gamble. Plus now days with the way free agency is moving players around , is it the best option to put all your faith in a young player? Could be gone within 7 or so years when they hit their prime. Look at GWS, clubs circling them every trade period now

Albeit a hypothetical from the other poster , it would be the dumbest move to trade De Goey and Stevo on the hope you are picking up talented youth. Those two are the type of players you look for in a draft , game winners with x factor. Our luck we would get Rankine, Lukoious and end up with picks 10 and 30 and get a Ramsay and a chris egan
 

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Firstly, you are insane.
Secondly, De Goey, Stevo and Moore have to agree to the trade.. they won't.
Thirdly, we are in our premiership window and you want to trade away those players for 2 first year players and draft picks.
Absolutely with contracted players they have to agree to the trade. And who wants to go to Gold Coast?

The hypothetical is based on value proposition and what it would take to move any of De Goey/Stephenson/Moore.
 

Knightmare

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It's the kind of mega trade you only see in video games. The ground would shake and open up at Marvel and swallow everyone if such a thing went down.
That's why I bring it up as a hypothetical with the intended point being - unless well overs are offered they're not on the table.

Some due to different talent ID may have different views regarding what would be well overs and Lukosius and Rankine are two I place an uber premium on not only on quality but list fit.
 

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Biggest myth and over reaction in the footy world is "youth is better"

As someone said , trading a proven star/talent to be replaced with potentially a young star/talent is such a huge gamble. Plus now days with the way free agency is moving players around , is it the best option to put all your faith in a young player? Could be gone within 7 or so years when they hit their prime. Look at GWS, clubs circling them every trade period now

Albeit a hypothetical from the other poster , it would be the dumbest move to trade De Goey and Stevo on the hope you are picking up talented youth. Those two are the type of players you look for in a draft , game winners with x factor. Our luck we would get Rankine, Lukoious and end up with picks 10 and 30 and get a Ramsay and a chris egan
Agree.
Too much faith in the unknown young than the proven players.

Actually with our luck, Lukosious and Rankine would be injury prone.
Though I’d be partial to get either at some point just because they want to join us.
But not give up our X factor players.

Such dreams don’t happen.
 
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