Society/Culture Can we please stop equating the risk posed by left wing extremists with that of right wing extremists?

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kranky al

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See, there you go! That's twice now.



So you keep saying but you havent put up any proof yet.

Show me where (in the US Homeland Threat Assessment) it mentions 'the far left'.

Not 'anarchists'' or 'anti-government'. Show me where it says 'the far Left' or even just 'Left'.
Sky news...
 

Carringbush2010

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Seems funny that we can have no hesitation in branding right wing christian groups as right wing when all their sympathies are with right wing authoritarian politics, religious control over peoples lives to an extreme degree and mixing of church and state

yet feel differently about their mirror image in muslim groups who express the same sort of absolute religion and state authoritarian control.

especially made easy by the lefts largely atheist / agnostic / clear separation of church and state beliefs.
Agreed, anyone who thinks christian groups or religious groups for that matter don't want control they need to think again.
 

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Carringbush2010

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Left wing: Believe in equality and justice for all, and oppose social hierarchies.



Left-wing politics - Wikipedia

When taken to its extreme (Communism for example), this equality and egalitarianism is enforced, which results in persecution for many (at which point it stops being egalitarian).

On the other side of the spectrum:

Right wing: Believe hierarchies are inevitable, or even desirable.



Right-wing politics - Wikipedia

When taken to its extreme (Fascism, Nazism and Islamic Fundamentalism for example) this results in the persecution or even outright genocide of entire swathes of the community at the bottom of the hierarchy (usually women, disabled people, religious minorities, homosexuals and ethnic minorities).
Yeah that's a pretty good summation, the problem begins when you go further on the limb the further extreme you go to achieve the ideal for everybody. Even if that is a goal purely from an empathetic stand point, you subconsciously do and believe bad to reach ideal. It's a bad trade off and usually effects innocent others.

This is why I try and stay centred with a practical point of view, I know being centred is not sexy or makes 'noise' but at least it's where most of us like to live and laugh at w******* going into the Grampians wearing weird garb and looking like w*******.

Point is I really think far ends of left or right should not be given oxygen, because the more they get the more they think they are right or 'sensibly centred' according to their ideal.

So if you ask me I don't equate left wing extremists with right wing ones, both sets of nutjobs in noisy minorities with completely different ideals.
 

Mofra

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Yeah that's a pretty good summation, the problem begins when you go further on the limb the further extreme you go to achieve the ideal for everybody. Even if that is a goal purely from an empathetic stand point, you subconsciously do and believe bad to reach ideal. It's a bad trade off and usually effects innocent others.

This is why I try and stay centred with a practical point of view, I know being centred is not sexy or makes 'noise' but at least it's where most of us like to live and laugh at w******* going into the Grampians wearing weird garb and looking like w*******.

Point is I really think far ends of left or right should not be given oxygen, because the more they get the more they think they are right or 'sensibly centred' according to their ideal.

So if you ask me I don't equate left wing extremists with right wing ones, both sets of nutjobs in noisy minorities with completely different ideals.
The extremes of both are characterised by an 'anti-science' stance, so I have some sympathy for horseshoe theory.

You could go to Northern NSW and find pro-crystal, pro-reiki, anti-vax anti-5G communities.
On the extreme right you have anti-vaxxers as well, with anti-climate change types thrown in. There's an anti-5G element there too.
 

Carringbush2010

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The extremes of both are characterised by an 'anti-science' stance, so I have some sympathy for horseshoe theory.

You could go to Northern NSW and find pro-crystal, pro-reiki, anti-vax anti-5G communities.
On the extreme right you have anti-vaxxers as well, with anti-climate change types thrown in. There's an anti-5G element there too.
Ah yes, there's lot of 'grey' of varying degrees in the left v right (black & white).

For example that some believe that Islamist extremists as one or the other - even though they have what western society would call right leaning conservative views (women as 2nd class citizens etc.), some believe they're left aligned because of all things anti western, so I don't see that argument hold any weight.

Some might call them confused, but still a good example of varying opinions of what is left or right. Islamist extremists are good example of they're not really either certainly from a lens that is a liberal democratic western society.

Your example above could be argued as neither as well, for example your pro reiki tarot card reader doesn't really have any extreme ideological will nor does the conspiracy theory boomer white guy. They're just stupid or easily influenced, not really out for wearing silly garb in hills sprouting white supremacy or actively attacking innocent law abiding white folk coz they're white.
 

kranky al

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Dear God. Another one.

How is hatred of the freedom of individuals and the rule of law associate with the "right"?

Arts Degree by any chance?

#flatearther

HOw is hATreD of The FreEDom oF indIviduAls ANd the RuLe of lAW aSsociAtE wItH tHe rIgHt

<<<The dismissal of the Whitlam government on November 11, 1975, is singularly important to Australian history.

Even now, this severe test of our democratic institutions is poorly grasped. Our haziness around the facts has led to many rationalising the dismissal. These rationalisations focus on Whitlam's personality, his alleged lack of strategy or claims that the government was "disintegrating anyway".

None of this is adequate — these rationalisations show a troublingly casual disregard for democratic process.

But facing the facts of our past can teach us how to better face the present. Without a clear grasp of the facts, our interpretations of political events are bound to go astray.

In a time of "fake news", it is crucial that we remain committed to the facts — whether they tell us what we want to hear or not.

Here are five facts you need to know to understand why Whitlam's dismissal matters.

Gough Whitlam listens to dismissal announcement
Gough Whitlam was dismissed as prime minister by then governor-general Sir John Kerr.(Australian Information Service, National Library Of Australia Collection)
1. The 'supply crisis' was actually over

In the weeks before Whitlam's dismissal, the Senate was frozen. The Liberal opposition were starving the government of funds by repeatedly deferring the vote on its money bills, creating a "supply crisis".

In response, Whitlam called a half-Senate election. Governor-general John Kerr agreed and was exchanging draft documentation with Whitlam — it was already being announced on ABC radio's PM program.

The Liberal Coalition had used the same strategy to block the government in 1974. In response, Whitlam had consulted with then governor-general Paul Hasluck and called an election. The money bills were passed as soon as the election was called.

This sequence was about to be repeated in 1975. Instead, Kerr "ambushed" Whitlam, dismissing him just hours after he announced the Senate election.

2. Kerr's second dismissal

After Kerr sacked Whitlam, the House of Representatives met in the afternoon. Kerr's newly-appointed prime minister Malcolm Fraser was defeated in a "no confidence" motion.

By the afternoon, the Senate passed supply, resolving the supply crisis.

Sir John Kerr speaks in front of a microphone in the middle of the SCG during the 1974 NSWRL Grand Final.
Sir John Kerr.(National Library Of Australia/Ern McQuillan)
Next, the Speaker of the House went to advise the governor-general that the House had no confidence in the Fraser government.

Kerr simply refused to see the Speaker or receive the motion of no confidence.

In short, he rejected the democratic role of the House of Representatives in the making and unmaking of governments.

This, argues historian Jenny Hocking, was "Kerr's second dismissal: the dismissal of the Parliament".

We asked if you thought Whitlam's dismissal mattered in today's political climate. Read the comments below.
3. Kerr believed he had a green light from Buckingham Palace

Kerr's recently released papers show he was seeking advice on using the "reserve powers" to dismiss Whitlam long before was previously revealed.

This included consultations with Prince Charles, the Queen, and the Queen's private secretary, Martin Charteris.

The Palace offered to delay Kerr's recall to help the governor-general sack Whitlam before Whitlam could sack him.

The Palace didn't counsel Kerr to consult with Whitlam, nor did it contact Whitlam. Kerr took this as a green light.

4. Fraser and Kerr were in secret phone contact

Former Liberal Senate leader Reg Withers recently revealed that Kerr had already decided to act against Whitlam in the week before November 11 and Fraser was aware.

In utter disregard for our constitution and political conventions, the pair were in secret phone contact the week before the dismissal.

Their deception around this was sustained for decades.

5. Two High Court justices secretly advised Kerr

Chief Justice of the High Court Sir Garfield Barwick. (National Library of Australia, nla.obj-136609846)
Sir Garfield Barwick advised Sir John Kerr on the legality of dismissing a prime minister.(National Library Of Australia)
In an egregious breach of the separation of powers, Chief Justices Garfield Barwick and Anthony Mason advised how to dismiss a government.

Kerr's papers show Mason secretly advised him for months leading up to the dismissal, and both during and after it.

Mason even drafted a letter of dismissal for Kerr.

Mason's central role was unknown before the release of Kerr's papers.

Kerr and Barwick — a former Liberal minister — colluded to deceive the public.

By focusing attention on Barwick, they shielded Mason from public view.>>>>
 

sorted

Norm Smith Medallist
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See, there you go! That's twice now.
And that's twice you've snipped my post.

In Australia, the UK and other countries the far left have held violent protests.

Globally there exists a number of extreme left wing groups. In the US the list of designated Foreign Terrorist Organizations includes 7 left wing groups and 61 Islamist groups.

So you keep saying but you havent put up any proof yet.

Show me where (in the US Homeland Threat Assessment) it mentions 'the far left'.

Not 'anarchists'' or 'anti-government'. Show me where it says 'the far Left' or even just 'Left'.
I'll refer to your favourite source of knowledge.

As an anti-capitalist and libertarian socialist philosophy, anarchism is placed on the far-left of the political spectrum and much of its economics and legal philosophy reflect anti-authoritarian interpretations of left-wing politics such as communism, collectivism, syndicalism, mutualism, or participatory economics.

From the HTA

DHS law enforcement officers suffered over 300 separate injuries and were assaulted with sledgehammers, commercial grade fireworks, rocks, metal pipes, improvised explosive devices, and more. This violence, perpetrated by anarchist extremists and detailed in numerous public statements that remain available on the DHS website, significantly threatens the Homeland by undermining officer and public safety— as well as our values and way of life.
 

Malifice

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From the HTA
I didn't see it mention leftist anywhere in the report. Because it doesnt mention it. It mentions anti-government protests and anarchists.

Timothy McVeigh was anti-government. So are Sovereign citizens and similar 'patriot' groups.

Are they left wing?
 

Mofra

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I didn't see it mention leftist anywhere in the report. Because it doesnt mention it. It mentions anti-government protests and anarchists.

Timothy McVeigh was anti-government. So are Sovereign citizens and similar 'patriot' groups.

Are they left wing?
The fact that some people cannot simply renounce nazism and desperately try to conflate it with groups they don't like shows just how deep the problems in modern society are.
 

sorted

Norm Smith Medallist
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anarchists.

Are they left wing?
anarchism is placed on the far-left of the political spectrum

From the HTA

DHS law enforcement officers suffered over 300 separate injuries and were assaulted with sledgehammers, commercial grade fireworks, rocks, metal pipes, improvised explosive devices, and more. This violence, perpetrated by anarchist extremists.
 

FireKrakouer

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The fact that some people cannot simply renounce nazism and desperately try to conflate it with groups they don't like shows just how deep the problems in modern society are.
I denounce Nazism with a passion, and I've realised how divisive and pointless a thread like this is. I've contributed to this division, but will no longer do so ITT. It's a thread that automatically places people on the defence, hurling about whataboutism and pitching X against Y, even those there's so much that we all agree on.
 

Ghost Patrol

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anarchism is placed on the far-left of the political spectrum

From the HTA

DHS law enforcement officers suffered over 300 separate injuries and were assaulted with sledgehammers, commercial grade fireworks, rocks, metal pipes, improvised explosive devices, and more. This violence, perpetrated by anarchist extremists.
You deleted a word from that wiki quote. Why?


The political compass has two axis. Anarchy is represented on the Y axis.

Ok, I'll dumb it down for you. Think up/down, not left/right
 

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Norm Smith Medallist
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The fact that some people cannot simply renounce nazism and desperately try to conflate it with groups they don't like shows just how deep the problems in modern society are.
Nazism is despicable as is Stalinism and other extreme right or left wing positions. But neither is something to be getting your panties in a bunch about in Australia. There's a few idiots on both sides. One jailing of an anti-Islamist, and some small groups of dickheads who take their shirts off and set fire to crosses. The far left in Australia has indulged in violent political protests that fall below the threshold of terrorism.

In the US the HTA reported that DHS law enforcement officers suffered over 300 separate injuries by far left extremists. They were assaulted with sledgehammers, commercial grade fireworks, rocks, metal pipes, improvised explosive devices, and more.

As far as US terrorist fatalities are concerned, we are looking at five in total in the first eight months of 2020. One by an Antifa activist, one by a far-right extremist, one by an anti-feminist, and two by an adherent of the Boogaloo movement. To put those five deaths in perspective, in the same period there were
38,390 deaths by firearm, of which 24,432 were by suicide and 13,958 were homicides.

Far left and right individuals and groups need to be monitored but Islamists remain by far the biggest terror threat. I reject the deliberate attempts to conflate the right wing and Islamist terror threat.
 

Mofra

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I reject the deliberate attempts to conflate the right wing and Islamist terror threat.
So do I.

1612846300457.png


The thread is actually about far-left vs far-right violence, where there is no comparison. Far-right violence is more prevalent than far-left violence and the OP remains correct.
 

FireKrakouer

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So do I.

View attachment 1054410

The thread is actually about far-left vs far-right violence, where there is no comparison. Far-right violence is more prevalent than far-left violence and the OP remains correct.
"Attacks and plots". That's rather vague. Can you offer a breakdown that includes the dozens of deaths that occurred in protests concerning George Floyd?
 

Malifice

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anarchism is placed on the far-left of the political spectrum
No, it doesn't say that. Anarchism exists on both the left and the right side of politics:

Left and right anarchism

The term left anarchism, or left-wing anarchism, has been used to distinguish social anarchism from anarcho-capitalism and anti-state right-libertarian philosophies. The term left anarchism is sometimes used synonymously with libertarian socialism, left-libertarianism, or social anarchism. Anarchists typically discourage the concept of left-wing theories of anarchism on grounds of redundancy and that it lends legitimacy to the notion that anarchism is compatible with capitalism or nationalism.

Syndicalist Ulrike Heider categorized anarchism into left anarchism, right anarchism and green anarchism. The term right anarchism, or right-wing anarchism, has been used to refer to schools of thoughts which are not generally considered part of anarchism, including anarcho-capitalism and national-anarchism.
Issues in anarchism - Wikipedia

Left wing anarchists believe that anarchism removes hierarchies (namely the State, and hierarchies it supports and allows to prosper). Right wing anarchists seek removal of the State to allow those very hierarchies to flourish (in the same way that 'libertarians' argue for 'small Government' so they can freely racially abuse people and be free of regulations that stop them acting unscrupulously).

I'm left wing, and I oppose anarchism because I think the libertarians and right wing anarchists are onto something. If the State is removed and we're reduced to a state of anarchy (the Zombie apocalypse hits), the State is simply replaced with 'Mob Rule' and a 'Dog eat Dog' mentality, meaning the disadvantaged in society (women, ethnic minorities, religious minorities, homosexuals, the disabled, the poor etc) cop it in the neck.

'Every man for himself' does nothing to remove hierarchies; it just allows them to flourish.
 

Malifice

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Well looks the the far left, specifically the BLM movement fostered by the media just cost Eddie McGuire his job and will gradually tearing this nation apart.
What? He was the President of an organization that's fostered a culture where calling black men 'Chimps' and wearing black face was accepted, while ignoring complaints about this behavior and deflecting them with spin, while he himself referred to an Aboriginal man by comparing him to 'King Kong'.

Like seriously? You see nothing wrong with that?
 

Malifice

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Nazism is despicable as is Stalinism and other extreme right or left wing positions. But neither is something to be getting your panties in a bunch about in Australia.
Tell that to Tarrant. The only reason he didn't do what he did in NZ here, is because we tightened our gun laws after Port Arthur.

Nearly 40 percent of all current terrorist investigations in Australia are directed at plots by Far Right Wing extremists, only narrowly behind Islamists.

It seems to me that whenever someone goes postal and murders a bunch of people, they're invariably either a Salaffi Islamist, or a RWNJ/ incel/ AWM.
 

Jibroni

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What? He was the President of an organization that's fostered a culture where calling black men 'Chimps' and wearing black face was accepted, while ignoring complaints about this behavior and deflecting them with spin, while he himself referred to an Aboriginal man by comparing him to 'King Kong'.

Like seriously? You see nothing wrong with that?
Yes he has made some dumb comments but to say he "fostered it" is a bridge too far IMO.

This is the same man who has done for countless work for charities and assisting other clubs in the AFL, particularly mine. He simply does not deserve this.
 

FireKrakouer

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Tell that to Tarrant. The only reason he didn't do what he did in NZ here, is because we tightened our gun laws after Port Arthur.

Nearly 40 percent of all current terrorist investigations in Australia are directed at plots by Far Right Wing extremists, only narrowly behind Islamists.

It seems to me that whenever someone goes postal and murders a bunch of people, they're invariably either a Salaffi Islamist, or a RWNJ/ incel/ AWM.
So you can read the mind of that POS T********?

All you do is assist these folk, when the NZ gov were intelligent enough to not spread his name.

You are utterly obsessed with an issue that doesn't exist. If you had any respect for yourself or your community you would delete this crap or at least begin being honest!
 

twotooto

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Well looks the the far left, specifically the BLM movement fostered by the media just cost Eddie McGuire his job and will gradually tearing this nation apart.
I don't necessarily feel that a lot of the racial allegations against him are justified, but he definitely did exhibit, on countless occasions, an unrivalled ability to stick his foot in his mouth. He was incredibly clumsy - like the proverbial elephant in a china shop, yet he seemed to consider himself beyond reproach.

And that to me, is and will be the undoing of Ed - he just would not and will not accept responsibility for his actions. Any sort of contrition from him was only about the optics.

Like Icarus, Edward flew a little too close to the sun a little too often. There was no option but for him to resign. Not for himself, but for the good of the Collingwood football club.
 

Malifice

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Yes he has made some dumb comments but to say he "fostered it" is a bridge too far IMO.
He's the President mate. The buck stops there. It happened under his (32 year) watch.

It doesn't help that during his tenure he's publicly called an Aboriginal man ''King Kong'', and told a bloke with Jewish parents that "it would have been hard getting pocket money from them".
 

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