Society/Culture Can we please stop equating the risk posed by left wing extremists with that of right wing extremists?

[Carringbush2010]

Antivaxxers, Proud Boys and other Far Right groups, and Qanon people are all arguing that a 'cabal of banking families, international financiers, Hollywood and media elites, Soros, Zuckerberg etc (so - the Jews) are behind a secret plot to (impose communism/ socialism/ great reset/ universal credit on us) or (eat and rape our children) or (both).

And all of them are noisy minority groups, not a reflection of wider society. Important to realize that.

The views are different, but the methods and reality is the same

And that's where it begins and ends.

 

[Malifice]

And all of them are noisy minority groups, not a reflection of wider society. Important to realize that.

And they're growing fast.

Even more important to realize that.

 

[Carringbush2010]

And they're growing fast.

Even more important to realize that.

Even more importantly is to realize that extreme minority groups will NOT dictate to the centred majority.

 

[Malifice]

Even more importantly is to realize that extreme minority groups will NOT dictate to the centred majority.

You think what happened in 1920-33 in Germany, wont happen elsewhere?

Here is one for you:

''A decaying Republic, faced by economic hardship, is beset by street battles between growing armed fascist groups and anti-fascist opponents on the other side.

Young men don uniforms and rifles stand guard at protests, ready to beat down any Socialist or sympathizer they see.

The fascists are convinced that there is a secret plot by 'international banking cabals, financiers and Media elites' to (cannibalize and rape children/ impose global socialism on us all) and that the Left and the 'financiers' are seeking to undermine and replace the White race via a 'great replacement.'

A failed coup by the fascists on the Government is thwarted, and their leader is removed. From his exile, he writes about his struggles and his vision for the future.'

Am I talking about the USA or Germany here?

 

[Carringbush2010]

You think what happened in 1920-33 in Germany, wont happen elsewhere?

Here is one for you:

''A decaying Republic, faced by economic hardship, is beset by street battles between growing armed fascist groups and anti-fascist opponents on the other side.

Young men don uniforms and rifles stand guard at protests, ready to beat down any Socialist or sympathizer they see.

The fascists are convinced that there is a secret plot by 'international banking cabals, financiers and Media elites' to (cannibalize and rape children/ impose global socialism on us all) and that the Left and the 'financiers' are seeking to undermine and replace the White race via a 'great replacement.'

A failed coup by the fascists on the Government is thwarted, and their leader is removed. From his exile, he writes a novel about his struggles and his vision for the future.'

Am I talking about the USA or Germany here?

Ahh! you're talking about exceptions to the rule.

C'mon Malifice you're talking a very high improbability here about a repeat of guys like Hitler, Himler and Geobels (not sure of correct spelling) hijacking 'socialism' by authoritarian and misinforming force.

That sh*t ain't flyin in this day and age, sure you've got Xi, Putin and Kim but by and large the western world is not going to fall for fascism anytime soon if ever.

Majority rules remember that.

 

[Malifice]

C'mon Malifice you're talking a very high improbability here about a repeat of guys like Hitler, Himler and Geobels (not sure of correct spelling) hijacking 'socialism' by authoritarian and misinforming force.

Sound like anyone you know?

 

[Ben The Donkey]

You know, at some point you realise that all there is, is this:




Except... that isn't quite true, is it?

 

[Carringbush2010]

Sound like anyone you know?


View attachment 1287557

And where is he now?

 

[Malifice]

And where is he now?

In exile, writing about his struggle to his followers, following his attempted coup.

 

[Carringbush2010]

In exile, writing about his struggle to his followers, following his attempted coup.

Yes and not in power.

Won't return either, unless Biden and his admin go into 'progressive' at the cost of practical (majority). Which in part is the cause of trump in the first place, progressive impractical ideals.

Do you think that somehow the majority of the american electorate will vote the orange back in? Think about your response given the possible accusation of dumb shaming (not by me btw).

 

[Gralin]

Well that would be inconsistent language then wouldn't it, if you can state a socialist or a 'national' socialist is not actually a socialist.................

Given people that call themselves national socialists dont believe or practice socialism its about understanding that political movements can call themselves whatever they want, but that doesn't mean their names line up with their politics

Here's another example of names and politics not matching

The liberal party

 

[Carringbush2010]

Here's another example of names and politics not matching

The liberal party

And no one is arguing that.

Here's another,

 

[Gralin]

And no one is arguing that.

Here's another,

View attachment 1287669

Given I wrote

I think its pretty easy to understand the different between say being a socialist and being a national socialist

one of them is about socialism, the other is not

To which you replied

Well that would be inconsistent language then wouldn't it, if you can state a socialist or a 'national' socialist is not actually a socialist.................

I'm not really sure what the * you're on about now

 

[Carringbush2010]

Given I wrote




To which you replied




I'm not really sure what the fu** you're on about now

Ok calm down mate, I think you're in furious agreement with me.

Merely pointing out the incorrect 'labelling' and how it can be misused intentionally to back ones argument and by extension can further be misconstrued unintentionally by others.

Here's another example:

Homo, trans, islama, race, religion, any minority group 'phobe'

We know that phobia is the definition of fear, yet anyone of these 'phobes' does not 'fear' but rather intentionally discriminate. I actually haven't of anyone who 'fears' these groups.

 

[Gough]

Ok calm down mate, I think you're in furious agreement with me.

Merely pointing out the incorrect 'labelling' and how it can be misused intentionally to back ones argument and by extension can further be misconstrued unintentionally by others.

Here's another example:

Homo, trans, islama, race, religion, any minority group 'phobe'

We know that phobia is the definition of fear, yet anyone of these 'phobes' does not 'fear' but rather intentionally discriminate. I actually haven't of anyone who 'fears' these groups.

Tony Abbott is on the record as saying he feels threatened by gay people.

 

[Gralin]

Ok calm down mate, I think you're in furious agreement with me.

Merely pointing out the incorrect 'labelling' and how it can be misused intentionally to back ones argument and by extension can further be misconstrued unintentionally by others.

Here's another example:

Homo, trans, islama, race, religion, any minority group 'phobe'

We know that phobia is the definition of fear, yet anyone of these 'phobes' does not 'fear' but rather intentionally discriminate. I actually haven't of anyone who 'fears' these groups.

I'm calm

they try and spread fear in the wider population to allow the discrimination so I don't really have an issue with the language

 

[Carringbush2010]

Tony Abbott is on the record as saying he feels threatened by gay people.

Threat is not necessarily fear, and I doubt he'd fear minority groups. Even then this would be an anomaly not a regularity.

Another example of poor use of language on his part if this is the case.

 

[Carringbush2010]

I'm calm

they try and spread fear in the wider population to allow the discrimination so I don't really have an issue with the language

And on the other end of the spectrum, there are a minority of groups / advocates that use the 'phobe' label to back argument and sometimes in bad faith - even if the sentiment of their argument is noble.

That's why there is a problem with incorrect language imo, it can be intentionally misused (and is) in bad faith to deliberately misinform any targeted audience.

EDIT: see Gough post to me on Tony Abbott. There's good argument there that Tony used the term 'threatened' in bad faith to assert his 'view'.

Sneaky and disingenuous.

 

[Carringbush2010]

Soz Malifice

I've taken the thread off the rails a bit. I'll stop discussing the 'phobe' - only used it to highlight intentional / unintentional use of language.

 

[CM86]

Umm no, was not conflating anything, just pointing out that the view of say an antifa member and a neo nazi are at complete odds. Which is relevant to today's discussions, not nazism and fascism in their intended forms per se.

In other words was highlighting the horse shoe theory as the bullsh*t that it is.

Sure both antifa and neo nazi (if to use an example) are equally 'extreme' but that's where the similarity begins and ends. < Surely you agree.

In other words was highlighting the horse shoe theory as the bullsh*t that it is.

Sure both antifa and neo nazi (if to use an example) are equally 'extreme' but that's where the similarity begins and ends. < Surely you agree.

Not sure why you left this bit out of your reply.

That's not the point I'm making and you know it.

Yes antifa have been know to go to extreme lengths to get their sentiment known, it's been documented and indisputable. Not at extreme as white supremo dickwads. That's not my argument.

You know what you're doing.

It's why I actually like posters like Boronia67 and sorted so much more. Because they are actually open with their hate.
You're just extremely bad faith.

 

[FireKrakouer]

I'll tell ya one thing for free, yesterday I had a loose bowel action in the toilets of an office where the workers are quite left leaning. Let's just say, that poor bathroom exhaust fan simply couldn't keep up. My question is: is this an example of right wing terrorism?

 

[Carringbush2010]

You know what you're doing.

It's why I actually like posters like Boronia67 and sorted so much more. Because they are actually open with their hate.
You're just extremely bad faith.

That's some accusation, read those posts again. I'm pointing out the bs that is horse shoe theory.

Who is the target of my supposed hate? Antifa and neo nazis? Yeah that's something to be ashamed of. That open enough for ya?

Troll.

 

[Pie eyed]

Yes and not in power.

Won't return either, unless Biden and his admin go into 'progressive' at the cost of practical (majority). Which in part is the cause of trump in the first place, progressive impractical ideals.

Do you think that somehow the majority of the american electorate will vote the orange back in? Think about your response given the possible accusation of dumb shaming (not by me btw).

You can't call on logic to argue against Trump being reelected.
Those who elected Trump did not use it and probably would not recognise it if it bit them in the arse.
America is a country dominated by the uneducated, the bigoted, and the religious fundamentalist, the being furthest from logic known.

 

[Carringbush2010]

You can't call on logic to argue against Trump being reelected.
Those who elected Trump did not use it and probably would not recognise it if it bit them in the arse.
America is a country dominated by the uneducated, the bigoted, and the religious fundamentalist, the being furthest from logic known.

That's a big call pie eyed, that would suggest the buffoon would have been re elected. He wasn't and won't be unless the current admin goes into minority before majority policies.

 

[Tyberious Funk]

And where is he now?

The 14 features of facism according to Umberto Eco

1. The cult of tradition. “One has only to look at the syllabus of every fascist movement to find the major traditionalist thinkers. The Nazi gnosis was nourished by traditionalist, syncretistic, occult elements.”
2. The rejection of modernism. “The Enlightenment, the Age of Reason, is seen as the beginning of modern depravity. In this sense Ur-Fascism can be defined as irrationalism.”
3. The cult of action for action’s sake. “Action being beautiful in itself, it must be taken before, or without, any previous reflection. Thinking is a form of emasculation.”
4. Disagreement is treason. “The critical spirit makes distinctions, and to distinguish is a sign of modernism. In modern culture the scientific community praises disagreement as a way to improve knowledge.”
5. Fear of difference. “The first appeal of a fascist or prematurely fascist movement is an appeal against the intruders. Thus Ur-Fascism is racist by definition.”
6. Appeal to social frustration. “One of the most typical features of the historical fascism was the appeal to a frustrated middle class, a class suffering from an economic crisis or feelings of political humiliation, and frightened by the pressure of lower social groups.”
7. The obsession with a plot. “Thus at the root of the Ur-Fascist psychology there is the obsession with a plot, possibly an international one. The followers must feel besieged.”
8. The enemy is both strong and weak. “By a continuous shifting of rhetorical focus, the enemies are at the same time too strong and too weak.”
9. Pacifism is trafficking with the enemy. “For Ur-Fascism there is no struggle for life but, rather, life is lived for struggle.”
10. Contempt for the weak. “Elitism is a typical aspect of any reactionary ideology.”
11. Everybody is educated to become a hero. “In Ur-Fascist ideology, heroism is the norm. This cult of heroism is strictly linked with the cult of death.”
12. Machismo and weaponry. “Machismo implies both disdain for women and intolerance and condemnation of nonstandard sexual habits, from chastity to homosexuality.”
13. Selective populism. “There is in our future a TV or Internet populism, in which the emotional response of a selected group of citizens can be presented and accepted as the Voice of the People.”
14. Ur-Fascism speaks Newspeak. “All the Nazi or Fascist schoolbooks made use of an impoverished vocabulary, and an elementary syntax, in order to limit the instruments for complex and critical reasoning.”

Interesting how many of them apply to the United States. I've highlighted point number seven because I think it's particularly relevant to Trump and the 'big lie' which is not only refusing to go away, but actually getting worse (https://edition.cnn.com/2021/09/15/politics/big-lie-republican-belief-trump/index.html).

Trump may have lost the election, but anyone thinking that America is now 'in the clear'. No wonder it's now being rated as a 'backsliding democracy' (https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...ing-democracies-civil-liberties-international)